Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: How about the Clackamas Mall Shooting just last December? Shooter kills two, is confronted by an armed citizen, retreats and suicides. Or another attempted theater shooting in San Antonio around that same time, defender was an off duty Cop sure, but when the badge comes off, sorry you're just another schmuck.
As to that Mother Jones article, 1. Really? Mother JONES? Come on Az.
2. They even contradict themselves multiple times. The Winnemucca shooting was stopped by a Marine in his late 40s, a retiree, so a veteran yes, but still a civilian.
Jeanne Assam was not a licensed Colorado security officer. She was a volunteer, same as people volunteer to be ushers and the like at your local church. New Life Church is right up the road from me, she engaged the shooter with her private carry weapon. It was quite the stir when it happened, New Life is about 10 minutes drive from me
Then the article your MJ article cites about police officers disliking armed civilians? Minimal citation, and it's another MJ article. Compared to professionals like Larry Correia http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2012/12/20/an-opinion-on-gun-control/ or my own County Sheriff, or my Campus Police department, who wholeheartedly endorse armed citizens being able to defend themselves and others.
Good guys with guns in the right place and right time can absolutely stop bad guys with guns.
I'm not sure why you're so desperate to be powerless before these pscyhopaths but your death is your own choice. At the very least I'll die with a weapon in my hand and go to my gods with a clean conscience. Cower in your corner, maybe they'll shoot you in the head and make it quick.
Your signature's kinda ironic isn't it?
Exalted
Az and anyone else... we have hang gunz...deal with it. (you should be ashamed for reading Mother Jones ) Further Gun Control measure limits law abiding citizens. I'd much rather that all this effort to increase gun controls is instead used for proper safety training and education. Because, in the end... criminals don't abide by the law anyways.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/11 14:33:36
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Yeah I really can't get over Mother Jones being cited as a reputable source of information. That's like citing Alex Jones and InfoWars.
Did someone say Tom Jones?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
The reason why gun wounding are so much higher in Canada, the UK, Japan, France, etc (all the usual suspects) compared to the USA, is that only the US has guns freely available to citizens whereas in all those other countries they are only freely available to criminals.
Kilkrazy wrote: The reason why gun wounding are so much higher in Canada, the UK, Japan, France, etc (all the usual suspects) compared to the USA, is that only the US has guns freely available to citizens whereas in all those other countries they are only freely available to criminals.
Huh? That doesn't quite compute... unless my brain is in Frazzled's frying pan...
Kilkrazy wrote: The reason why gun wounding are so much higher in Canada, the UK, Japan, France, etc (all the usual suspects) compared to the USA, is that only the US has guns freely available to citizens whereas in all those other countries they are only freely available to criminals.
Huh? That doesn't quite compute... unless my brain is in Frazzled's frying pan...
You want stir fry or over easy?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Kilkrazy wrote: The reason why gun wounding are so much higher in Canada, the UK, Japan, France, etc (all the usual suspects) compared to the USA, is that only the US has guns freely available to citizens whereas in all those other countries they are only freely available to criminals.
Huh? That doesn't quite compute... unless my brain is in Frazzled's frying pan...
Kilkrazy wrote: The reason why gun wounding are so much higher in Canada, the UK, Japan, France, etc (all the usual suspects) compared to the USA, is that only the US has guns freely available to citizens whereas in all those other countries they are only freely available to criminals.
Perhaps with the exception of Canada, guns aren't freely available to criminals in any of those countries because they don't have nearly the amount of guns in circulation as the US does. That's the difference.
Kilkrazy wrote: The reason why gun wounding are so much higher in Canada, the UK, Japan, France, etc (all the usual suspects) compared to the USA, is that only the US has guns freely available to citizens whereas in all those other countries they are only freely available to criminals.
I'm with Whembly on this one. That makes no sense at all.
After some research, I found that in Britain they classify just threatening with a fire arm as an "injury" hence why the numbers are so high there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/11 20:52:43
Kilkrazy wrote: The reason why gun wounding are so much higher in Canada, the UK, Japan, France, etc (all the usual suspects) compared to the USA, is that only the US has guns freely available to citizens whereas in all those other countries they are only freely available to criminals.
Huh? That doesn't quite compute... unless my brain is in Frazzled's frying pan...
You want stir fry or over easy?
stir fry with a side of queso my good man.
Good call.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Yeah I really can't get over Mother Jones being cited as a reputable source of information. That's like citing Alex Jones and InfoWars.
Next thing you'll be telling me that Electronic Intafada isn't a reliable source when it comes to Israel/Palestine
That might be an interesting film but nobody should ever be making self-defense decisions based off of something they saw in a movie.
But what if that movie is Smoky and the Bandit VIII?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Kilkrazy wrote: The reason why gun wounding are so much higher in Canada, the UK, Japan, France, etc (all the usual suspects) compared to the USA, is that only the US has guns freely available to citizens whereas in all those other countries they are only freely available to criminals.
Huh? That doesn't quite compute... unless my brain is in Frazzled's frying pan...
Coming soon in this thread: British posters commenting that Americans don't "get" irony. Stay tuned!
Kilkrazy wrote: The reason why gun wounding are so much higher in Canada, the UK, Japan, France, etc (all the usual suspects) compared to the USA, is that only the US has guns freely available to citizens whereas in all those other countries they are only freely available to criminals.
Huh? That doesn't quite compute... unless my brain is in Frazzled's frying pan...
Coming soon in this thread: British posters commenting that Americans don't "get" irony. Stay tuned!
Edited: We also lack poor reading comprehension skills when sleep deprived.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/11 22:13:58
Kilkrazy wrote: The reason why gun wounding are so much higher in Canada, the UK, Japan, France, etc (all the usual suspects) compared to the USA, is that only the US has guns freely available to citizens whereas in all those other countries they are only freely available to criminals.
I'm with Whembly on this one. That makes no sense at all.
After some research, I found that in Britain they classify just threatening with a fire arm as an "injury" hence why the numbers are so high there.
Doc: Where did he hurt you?
Brit: My feelings doc, they took a nasty hit.
Kilkrazy wrote: We moderators often make unwise decisions on Friday afternoons.
kestril wrote: Page 1: New guard topic
Page 2: FW debate
Page 3: Ailaros and Peregrine fight. TO THE DEATH
I swear I think those two have a hate-crush on each other sometimes.
Kilkrazy wrote: The reason why gun wounding are so much higher in Canada, the UK, Japan, France, etc (all the usual suspects) compared to the USA, is that only the US has guns freely available to citizens whereas in all those other countries they are only freely available to criminals.
I'm with Whembly on this one. That makes no sense at all.
After some research, I found that in Britain they classify just threatening with a fire arm as an "injury" hence why the numbers are so high there.
Doc: Where did he hurt you?
Brit: My feelings doc, they took a nasty hit.
American: Sue him for a million dollars, feelings are worth that much.
Manchu - "But so what? The Bible also says the flood destroyed the world. You only need an allegorical boat to tackle an allegorical flood."
Shespits "Anything i see with YOLO has half naked eleventeen year olds Girls. And of course booze and drugs and more half naked elventeen yearolds Girls. O how i wish to YOLO again!"
Rubiksnoob "Next you'll say driving a stick with a Scandinavian supermodel on your lap while ripping a bong impairs your driving. And you know what, I'M NOT GOING TO STOP, YOU FILTHY COMMUNIST"
Kilkrazy wrote: The reason why gun wounding are so much higher in Canada, the UK, Japan, France, etc (all the usual suspects) compared to the USA, is that only the US has guns freely available to citizens whereas in all those other countries they are only freely available to criminals.
I'm with Whembly on this one. That makes no sense at all.
After some research, I found that in Britain they classify just threatening with a fire arm as an "injury" hence why the numbers are so high there.
Doc: Where did he hurt you?
Brit: My feelings doc, they took a nasty hit.
American: Sue him for a million dollars, feelings are worth that much.
Damn right they are
Kilkrazy wrote: We moderators often make unwise decisions on Friday afternoons.
kestril wrote: Page 1: New guard topic
Page 2: FW debate
Page 3: Ailaros and Peregrine fight. TO THE DEATH
I swear I think those two have a hate-crush on each other sometimes.
Hordini wrote:I don't see how the fact that many of the CCW holders were Marines or former police officers or Army reserve members invalidates the point.
It does when the entire point is that those marines & off-duty cops are not regular citizens; they have had proper combat training.
KalashnikovMarine wrote:Good guys with guns in the right place and right time can absolutely stop bad guys with guns.
"Can"? Sure.
"Do"? Almost never. Which is sorta my point.
KalashnikovMarine wrote:I'm not sure why you're so desperate to be powerless before these pscyhopaths but your death is your own choice. At the very least I'll die with a weapon in my hand and go to my gods with a clean conscience. Cower in your corner, maybe they'll shoot you in the head and make it quick.
Because unless I had a distinct tactical advantage (read: rifle and distance; preferably cover and subterfuge as well) I like to think that I'd just keep my head down and get the Hell outta Dodge as quickly and safely as possible, rather than directly engage in a gunfight.
So you can enjoy Valhalla; and I'll enjoy consoling your widow. (Honestly, I can't decide if that's tasteless or not, so please take it in the most jovial sense possible. )
whembly wrote:Further Gun Control measure limits law abiding citizens. I'd much rather that all this effort to increase gun controls is instead used for proper safety training and education. Because, in the end... criminals don't abide by the law anyways.
I agree with you that proper safety training and education would be of most benefit, for sure. However, you really can't make that training & education optional, or all the moron who need it the most (see: Bushmaster ad campaign above) are the ones who won't bother with it.
And I have a feeling that a much higher percentage of criminals in the USA have firearms than do the criminals in Canada.
KalashnikovMarine wrote:Yeah I really can't get over Mother Jones being cited as a reputable source of information. That's like citing Alex Jones and InfoWars.
It's really not. It's more like citing the News Corp.-era Wall Street Journal.
Hordini wrote:That might be an interesting film but nobody should ever be making self-defense decisions based off of something they saw in a movie.
Go tell that to every person who's ever said a good guy with a gun is the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun.
Hordini wrote:I don't see how the fact that many of the CCW holders were Marines or former police officers or Army reserve members invalidates the point.
It does when the entire point is that those marines & off-duty cops are not regular citizens; they have had proper combat training.
Where I'm from, with the exception of a small number of people granted temporary emergency permits which require evidence of imminent danger, everyone with a CCW permit has had training. It varies by state, and my state has one of the higher training requirements, but most states require a basic level of firearms training before someone can be granted a CCW.
Hordini wrote:That might be an interesting film but nobody should ever be making self-defense decisions based off of something they saw in a movie.
Go tell that to every person who's ever said a good guy with a gun is the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun.
I like the .gif
Back to the topic: I would love to hear your suggestions on other, better ways to stop a bad guy with a gun. And don't say running or hiding, because that doesn't stop the bad guy.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/12 04:54:53
Kilkrazy wrote: The reason why gun wounding are so much higher in Canada, the UK, Japan, France, etc (all the usual suspects) compared to the USA, is that only the US has guns freely available to citizens whereas in all those other countries they are only freely available to criminals.
Perhaps with the exception of Canada, guns aren't freely available to criminals in any of those countries because they don't have nearly the amount of guns in circulation as the US does. That's the difference.
Your argument is circular.
It needs to start with an explanation of why it is hard to obtain guns illegally in these countries. Do you think that in the USA it is easy for criminals to get guns because there isn't a licensing regime?
Kilkrazy wrote: The reason why gun wounding are so much higher in Canada, the UK, Japan, France, etc (all the usual suspects) compared to the USA, is that only the US has guns freely available to citizens whereas in all those other countries they are only freely available to criminals.
Perhaps with the exception of Canada, guns aren't freely available to criminals in any of those countries because they don't have nearly the amount of guns in circulation as the US does. That's the difference.
Your argument is circular.
It needs to start with an explanation of why it is hard to obtain guns illegally in these countries. Do you think that in the USA it is easy for criminals to get guns because there isn't a licensing regime?
I think it's easier for criminals to get guns here because we already have a lot of guns. Guns can be stolen or bought illegally through straw purchases - all things that are already illegal and have harsh penalties. A licensing regime wouldn't change that at this point because there are already so many guns in private hands. All the guns that are already owned will still be owned unless there was some sort of mandatory confiscation, which isn't going to happen, and even if it did, a few law-abiding citizens would be the only ones to even consider turning their guns in. Criminals likely wouldn't turn in their guns, which would leave us with an armed criminal element and an unarmed or lesser-armed law-abiding populace.
Hordini wrote:Back to the topic: I would love to hear your suggestions on other, better ways to stop a bad guy with a gun. And don't say running or hiding, because that doesn't stop the bad guy.
I'm a pretty big fan of trained law enforcement officers.
Were I in a lecture hall when someone starts shooting; I'd be keeping my head down and trying to make my way to an exit as fast and safely as possible. The thought of having not only the perp's bullets flying overhead, but one or two people thinking they're living out their Die Hard fantasies is even worse in some respects.
See, here's what essentially informs my thought process on this issue, in a broad sense:
I am more concerned about catching a stray from an overcompensating moron than I am about being targeted by a malicious shooter, I think that a lot of current firearms marketing is targeting exactly the kind of idiots that I do not believe should have easy access to firearms.
They show up 20 minutes after a shooting has started.
Were I in a lecture hall when someone starts shooting; I'd be keeping my head down and trying to make my way to an exit as fast and safely as possible.
What if it was like Virginia Tech, where the assailant had chained the doors?
The thought of having not only the perp's bullets flying overhead, but one or two people thinking they're living out their Die Hard fantasies is even worse in some respects.
But you're cool with former military carrying and engaging, right? You said that above. Due to "combat training."
See, here's what essentially informs my thought process on this issue, in a broad sense:
I am more concerned about catching a stray from an overcompensating moron than I am about being targeted by a malicious shooter, I think that a lot of current firearms marketing is targeting exactly the kind of idiots that I do not believe should have easy access to firearms.
When's the last time someone got hit by a "stray" from an overcompensating moron during a mass shooting, out of curiosity?
When's the last time someone got hit by a "stray" from an overcompensating moron during a mass shooting, out of curiosity?
I don't recall hearing about an armed citizen hitting bystanders anytime recently, but I do recall those trained law enforcement officers hitting something like 9 bystanders in New York while trying to drop one guy.
Keep in mind, I'm not bashing on LEO's. I intend on becoming one myself post-military. That being said, I also realize that trusting them to keep you safe is foolhardy.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/12 12:05:20
When's the last time someone got hit by a "stray" from an overcompensating moron during a mass shooting, out of curiosity?
I don't recall hearing about an armed citizen hitting bystanders anytime recently, but I do recall those trained law enforcement officers hitting something like 9 bystanders in New York while trying to drop one guy.
Keep in mind, I'm not bashing on LEO's. I intend on becoming one myself post-military. That being said, I also realize that trusting them to keep you safe is foolhardy.
Kilkrazy wrote: The reason why gun wounding are so much higher in Canada, the UK, Japan, France, etc (all the usual suspects) compared to the USA, is that only the US has guns freely available to citizens whereas in all those other countries they are only freely available to criminals.
Perhaps with the exception of Canada, guns aren't freely available to criminals in any of those countries because they don't have nearly the amount of guns in circulation as the US does. That's the difference.
Your argument is circular.
It needs to start with an explanation of why it is hard to obtain guns illegally in these countries. Do you think that in the USA it is easy for criminals to get guns because there isn't a licensing regime?
We also have a border where I can purchase a full auto Chavez supplied AK, some grenades, a kilo of cocaine, and a human slave all in one shopping trip. Texas, so close to Mexico, so far from God.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/12 12:20:56
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Honestly, with this current wave of directionless, and emasculated "men" that our society is going through right now, that ad is fething brilliant! I love it personally. But the direction that "men" are going in, in western society is a whole other topic. I really do not think that the problem with America, in regards to these mass attacks is in the weapons themselves, it is still IMO, in the lack of parenting the kids get.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/12 13:11:52
)
