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"BA priests are not a gimmick because FNP is consistently effective and a significant upgrade to the squad. "

Not so sure about that. It's a fairly expensive T4 W1 IC. Etherals sound a hell of a lot better than BA priests to me.

I'd hate to sound like a naysayer but, as much of a buff as they got in general, other codices are more self-sufficient and less ally dependant.

Which would actually mean something if this "RPP" number was anything other than an arbitrary value.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

God man, you must love the taste of your own foot.

Precise shots from sniper rifles is a gimmick because it's so inconsistent and trying to use it as a strategy is less effective than just bringing consistent (if boring) shooting.

None sense. You shoot 20 shots, you're almost guaranteed to get at least 1, if not 2, and should average 3. Again, Peregrine, not being able to grasp simple concepts is a fairly poor piece of supporting evidence.

The Ethereal falls somewhere in between the two: a situational upgrade to a mediocre unit isn't the most efficient thing you can do with your points and FOC slots, but it does provide a meaningful upgrade and is much more consistent than a lot of other 'gimmick' options. Whether or not it will be considered worth it remains to be seen.

Um, and Ethereal giving 6+ FNP to an entire gun line is completely superior to a BP or Haem giving 5+ to one unit. I know that concept will just fly right over your head like the others, but its true regardless if you want to acknowledge it or not. Of course, the Ehtereal also gives the entire gun line the highest leadership value you can have in the game, and can swap the FNP into devastating firepower once units get close enough, two things a BP or a Haemie don't do. Ethereals are very good right now. I feel stupid having to explain this to people.

Sounds better than a Sanguinary Priest to me. People seem to magically forget that the sanguinary priest only gives one buff of any consequence now.

Ethereal "invocation of the elements" is "Every friendly non-vehicle unit from this codex within 12" "

Just wondering if he can use this ability inside a devilfish.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
God man, you must love the taste of your own foot.

So where exactly in the game is RPP defined then, if it isn't just an arbitrary value?

None sense. You shoot 20 shots, you're almost guaranteed to get at least 1, if not 2, and should average 3. Again, Peregrine, not being able to grasp simple concepts is a fairly poor piece of supporting evidence.

20 shots = 3.333 precise shots, but only 1.666 will wound and only 0.55 will be an AP 2 wound. Once you account for armor/cover/FNP/LoS your chances of being able to kill a specific target model are well into "gimmick" territory.

Um, and Ethereal giving 6+ FNP to an entire gun line is completely superior to a BP or Haem giving 5+ to one unit.

And let's just ignore that the Ethereal takes up an HQ slot, and only gives 6+ FNP, and most of the units getting it are only T3 (so it's ignored a lot more frequently than FNP on MEQs). Not that it really matters, since I didn't say that the Ethereal's FNP bonus was just a gimmick.

I know that concept will just fly right over your head like the others, but its true regardless if you want to acknowledge it or not. Of course, the Ehtereal also gives the entire gun line the highest leadership value you can have in the game, and can swap the FNP into devastating firepower once units get close enough, two things a BP or a Haemie don't do. Ethereals are very good right now. I feel stupid having to explain this to people.

I guess reading isn't your strong point? How do you manage to turn "lots of FWs and the Ethereal's extra shot bonus is somewhere between 'legitimate' and 'gimmick'" into "Etherals suck"?

This discussion is shockingly pathetic. Seriously, some people need to stop their pity parties and move on like adults.

9 pts for a firewarrior is overpriced? How the hell do you figure that? Let's compare it to a guardsman, which are regarded as amazing troops for their cost.

Now, 10 guardsman cost you 50, so you can assume they're around 5 points each. Probably a little less as they get a free sergeant but lets assume maybe 4.5 each then.

Fire warriors have one less WS. I don't know about you guys, but my guardsmen hit EVERYTHING on a 4+ anyway. And everything that wants to hit them gets 3+. So small loss.

A worse initiative. Big deal on units focused completely on shooting.

A better armor save. And I know everyone pretends that everything not at least 3+ is useless and every unit at all times has 3+ cover, this is a big deal. Veterans pay 30 points to give this to 10 men, meaning they value it at 3 pts per model. A 4+ armor save is a huge difference to rapid fire small arms.

Free defensive grenades. Plague marines get these and it makes a big difference. Its true that there are times when you'd rather a unit get wiped out, but one less attack per model can be a huge difference, especially if they're getting hit by a strong overwatch. They also have a often overlooked +1 to cover saves within I think 8 inches. At least 1 pt per model I'd say.

A completely and utterly superior gun. People who think 30" isn't a big deal over 24" have not seen it in action. It makes fire warriors almost have long range shooting, and a greater range for their mid range. Str 5 is a very nice weapon that can wound anything in the game. I get disappointed when my 50+ guardsmen can't FRF monstrous creatures who get Iron Arm. And an AP5 to slaughter light infantry which are a lot of players. Easy 2-3 pts per model.

And Support Fire. The whiners are quick to try and say how little it matters, but a few extra hits and a few extra kills each turn make a big difference.

Now, I'm not arguing that Firewarriors are absolutely better than guardsmen. I love guards; in masses they really can't be beat, and obviously guard generally can bring better heavy weapons (I'd make the arguement that firewarriors don't need heavy weapons in an army that has some of the best and heaviest firepower, but I won't get into that) But pretending Firewarriors are woefully points inefficient is childish. At worst, they are a reasonable costed unit. At best they pretty damn good point for point.

Another common complain seems to be against the Devilfish and how terrible it is. Really? While I do agree a vehicle with a few firepoints could be more suited to Tau tactics, I've still seen them used well. They are a mobile firetank that protects the squad inside for several turns as they make their way up the field. And they do that well.

Let's compare it to a 55 pt Chimera.

80 points base. Of course, what people love to overlook is the two free gun drones attached. In a kill point game, they're as useless as nipples on a breastplate, but otherwise how can you not love this? My friend commonly has them detach and float in front of the firewarriors as a speedbump against chargers. And free firepower. So let's take those 24 pts for the drones out. Now we're at 56 pts.

Chimera Pros in Comparison
-5 Firepoints. Very nice pro! Main reason they rule
-???

Devilfish Pros in Comparison
-Skimmer. Free 5+ cover save at all times. Cheap upgrade to increase cover save.
-Great upgrades in general. Lots of strong options.
-Better armor. 11 on the side makes a big difference. I rarely get to use a Chimera's 12 front armor =/

So you have a vehicle that I would agree isn't quite as handy as a Chimera would be in your army. I get that. But pretending its a bad vehicle is foolish. Its a very well costed transport. It does what its supposed to do very well.

Btw, you forgot that the TL pulse carbines on the drones with the devilfish also have pinning.

so 4 shots assault from the burst cannon, and 2x2 TL pulse carbine pinning on the drones.

So where exactly in the game is RPP defined then, if it isn't just an arbitrary value?

There's nothing arbitrary about it. Units have point costs, right? Units have several other values that dictate how hard they are to kill, right? Okay. So here's how it works. Saying unit A is "tougher" then Unit B is meaningless without taking into account it's point value. For Example, a C'Tan is infinitly tougher then a single IG model. However, outside of S3 weapons, 200 points of IG are much tougher to take down then a single C'tan. You calculate things like RPP because people will have perceptions that unit A is super resilient because they will overvalue a certain stat (like an extra wound or a 2+ save), but when you really break it down the fact is they are paying so much for that extra stat (and some other things too, like PFs on terms) that actually end up being less resilient then their bog standard counterparts.

20 shots = 3.333 precise shots, but only 1.666 will wound and only 0.55 will be an AP 2 wound. Once you account for armor/cover/FNP/LoS your chances of being able to kill a specific target model are well into "gimmick" territory.

/sigh There's nothing gimmicky about it. When you are trying to take out a crucial Banner/Heavy/Special weapon out of a squad (ie, models that don't have LoS), 20 precision shots has a pretty good chance of doing so. I don't what else to tell you.

And let's just ignore that the Ethereal takes up an HQ slot, and only gives 6+ FNP, and most of the units getting it are only T3 (so it's ignored a lot more frequently than FNP on MEQs). Not that it really matters, since I didn't say that the Ethereal's FNP bonus was just a gimmick.

Who cares if it takes up and HQ slot. You realize you get two of those, right? Were people maxing out HQ slots with the old Tau codex? And it does more for your army then any other HQ for the price you pay. All HQ's take up HQ slots. Its kind of there thing.

Also, you didn't say that the Ethereal's FNP was just a gimmick, although you did say you would never ever use it...which is just weird.

I guess reading isn't your strong point? How do you manage to turn "lots of FWs and the Ethereal's extra shot bonus is somewhere between 'legitimate' and 'gimmick'" into "Etherals suck"?

So sorry. So where exactly is the "gimmick" with the Ethereal?

Well, if you think the etherial is too bad, use Aun`va who ignore AP1, and can use 2 elemental abilities a round and rerolls all leadership stuff as long as he is alive.

100 points for him and 2 guards.

80 points base. Of course, what people love to overlook is the two free gun drones attached. In a kill point game, they're as useless as nipples on a breastplate, but otherwise how can you not love this? My friend commonly has them detach and float in front of the firewarriors as a speedbump against chargers. And free firepower. So let's take those 24 pts for the drones out. Now we're at 56 pts.

EXACTLY. This. So THIS. Excellent post all around Unreg1stered, but this is so true. You effectively get 3 units out of one FOC (FW+Fish+Drones). In 5 out of 6 games, you have no reason NOT to detach them.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
There's nothing arbitrary about it.

Of course it's arbitrary because you just arbitrarily declare that all factors are equal and apply to all weapons. For example, this means that you over-value cover saves if flamers are common because your arbitrary RPP value doesn't account for how often a defensive stat can be taken. Similarly it over-values the difference between T4 and T3 against weapons that wound both on a 2+. The fact that non-arbitrary numbers went into calculating RPP doesn't make it any less arbitrary.

/sigh There's nothing gimmicky about it. When you are trying to take out a crucial Banner/Heavy/Special weapon out of a squad (ie, models that don't have LoS), 20 precision shots has a pretty good chance of doing so. I don't what else to tell you.

Do the math. 20 snipers shooting at MEQs in the open have a 60% chance of getting a single un-saved precise shot. If the MEQs are in 5+ cover that number drops to only 53%. When it takes a unit of 20 to barely manage a 50/50 chance of success you're solidly into "gimmick" territory.

Who cares if it takes up and HQ slot. You realize you get two of those, right? Were people maxing out HQ slots with the old Tau codex? And it does more for your army then any other HQ for the price you pay. All HQ's take up HQ slots. Its kind of there thing.

The point is that Tau now have amazing HQs, where in the old codex they just had BS 4 crisis suits. Shadowsun hands out 2+ cover saves, Farsight has the shooting death star from hell, Fireblades give +1 shot at all times instead of a conditional +1, Darkstrider gives you outflanking scoring units, and even the generic crisis suit commander gives your choice of squad tank hunters, twin-linked weapons and ignores cover or gives you a blob of BS 5 marker drones. These are all powerful options that compete with the Ethereal.

So sorry. So where exactly is the "gimmick" with the Ethereal?

I didn't say that there was one. I said that the +1 shot bonus (the context where 'gimmick' was used by someone else) is somewhere between gimmick and legitimate. It's better than gimmick abilities like sniper rifles or pinning, but not as good as consistent powerful abilities.

For me, the single thing to make Firewarriors 100% more effective is to give them a Raider (really a tau equivalent). An open topped skimmer to shoot out of, and assault with grenades. All of a sudden, the pulse rifle matters more and their fragility matters less. They can also pick up some slack on anti-armor and more of a reason to use carbines (an assault weapon).

Too bad it'll never happen/take another 10 years to happen.

Do the math. 20 snipers shooting at MEQs in the open have a 60% chance of getting a single un-saved precise shot. If the MEQs are in 5+ cover that number drops to only 53%. When it takes a unit of 20 to barely manage a 50/50 chance of success you're solidly into "gimmick" territory.

So every other turn removing the most important model in a unit is a gimmick? Are lascannons gimmicks too? Any idea on the success rate of a single lascannon?


Fair enough on the rest of your post though. I agree Tau have good HQ options, but that certainly doesn't make the Ethereal any worse. I think every smart general will do Ethereal+Something else, just like DEldar do a Haemie slot+something else.


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Of course it's arbitrary because you just arbitrarily declare that all factors are equal and apply to all weapons. For example, this means that you over-value cover saves if flamers are common because your arbitrary RPP value doesn't account for how often a defensive stat can be taken. Similarly it over-values the difference between T4 and T3 against weapons that wound both on a 2+. The fact that non-arbitrary numbers went into calculating RPP doesn't make it any less arbitrary.

It's just a piece of the puzzle. To fully flesh it out you have to look at the entire resiliency matrix, ie the RPP values against all weapon types (or at least all the most common profiles). Once you have done this, you will realize that Fire Warriors are more resilient to some forms of fire power then other troops, and less resilient to others, but overall they will all fall into roughly the same neighborhood.

 Unreg1stered wrote:

9 pts for a firewarrior is overpriced? How the hell do you figure that? Let's compare it to a guardsman, which are regarded as amazing troops for their cost.

Oh?! I can't wait to count the ways this will be wrong.

It is a big deal though. These two stats make it so non cc oriented troops have a significant bonus to firewarriors. IG can safely assault Firewarriors knowing they will destroy them, instead of just trying to tarpit them. How is this not an advantage in the IG's favor? Can we just just do this with everything? Will a Terminator's T4 be negligible to a FW's T3 simply because most weapons with AP2 will wound on a 2+ as well?

You mean IG can assault a unit with defensive grenades and a superior armor save and weather the storm of an entire armies worth of Overwatch, and "they will destroy them?" Do you have any idea how dead ass wrong that is?


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My second favorite tired argument. How much are veterans with 4+, better stat line, and better weapon options? The problem isn't the 4+, but rather the unit's small size and generally poor leadership. The 4+ save won't save enough models in a 12 man T3 unit to prevent morale tests, and their leadership buff is expensive at 19points for one sarge.

Or a 50 point Ethereal that buffs the entire army. Also, you pay 10 points for the Sarge, not 19. You've already paid the price for his Firewarrior stats and weapon. It is, technically, a 19 point model before upgrades (more gears), but that distinction is purely academic.


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The +1 to cover saves is almost negligible since a unit can still be within charge range and shoot at the unit, if the unit even shoots at them before charging. Free defensive grenades make them only marginally more survivable since the base statline is so poor that they will generally always lose combat which is then subtracted from a base7 (I'm assuming the sarge either got killed in challenge or declined, either way it's ignored). If the unit fails, which is highly probable, then the I2 check to get away comes into to play and even guardsmen will have a better odd to overrun them. The defensive grenades may have just been given to a flyer for all the good it would do.

If there was only some way to make them Leadership 10 and stubborn to make everything you just said untrue. Hmmm. Let me check the codex. I'm sure I'll find it somewhere.


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My favorite argument! I love how you completely pretend the IG don't have heavy weapon and special weapon teams like crazy. Seriously this is the point that bothers me the most, because you're assuming IG are only there for lasguns which makes me think you run them like that. Nice try, but you missed the point so hard you may as well be comparing IG to Chaos Spawn in this thread for all the good it does.

So what? Those Heavies and Specials cost points, and up the cost of the IG squad, making them inherently less resilient. Fire Warriors are really 9 points/model, not lets pretend 6 points/model but really more because you'r upgrading gak. Once and IG squad loses it's Heavies/Specials it's basically a scoring unit and nothing else. Fire Warriors aren't dependent on one or two models to do meaningful damage.


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the problem is that 6" really restricts your army and really discourages spreading your units out. Units that are particularly vulnerable to templates. I will say the ability is nice, when utilized right. But it still isn't enough to really make the Firewarriors a tough troop base.

LOL. Supporting fire, when combined with competent placement, it's absolutely deadly. Sorry. And spreading your units out makes supporting fire better, not worse, you just have to keep one gimp within 6" of the other gimps. Pia Plates aren't 6" wide, and templates aren't really that big of a deal when they are hitting 1 or 2 dudes from two different units.


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2 drones are laughably easy to kill for a speed bump and since they no longer deny objectives they are better suited at just staying on the tank for survivability. But I love how you just randomly subtract the points from it. Why not subtract the cost of the heavy bolter and multi-laser from the Chimera? Pretending the drones are a free purchase along with the tank is silly, just because you can produce a single unit of 2 gun drones that... well... they can't join any other unit, they can't go for objectives, and it's laughably easy to kill off. So let's just go ahead and not randomly change the numbers because we feel like it. 80 points base, thanks for trying though.

Those drones will be a hundred times more useful to the army detached then attached. The fact that you don't realize that says a lot about your tactical acumen. You are going to waist a whole units worth of firepower to kill a couple dinky drones? Awesome. Way to play directly into my hands.

Ethereals are amazing. Anyone who can't see that is blind. Farsight is ok and Shadowsun is good but neither force multiply the way Ethereals do.

20 sniper Kroot might not ensure a model dies, but you arent limited to 20. Also vs. non Marines your chance of sniping increases quite a bit. Def. has its uses vs Xenos who have become more popular since 6th started.

I do believe FW are slightly overcosted. I'd like to have seen 8 pts a piece. But 9 isn't bad either. A mix of FW and Kroot can be sufficient to run pure Tau, but I wouldn't leave home without Ethereals. At times I'd consider two.

Having a high point cost makes it hard to toss those "nice" upgrades onto it. 15 points for +1 cover save is somewhat high and it's arguably the best. This alone brings it up to 95 points and it won't be hard to get over a hundred points with just a few upgrades. How much would you expect from a transport with basically 18" heavy bolter and one twin-linked 18" heavy bolter? But again, you're missing the key issue that the devilfish doesn't compliment the troops. It makes the unit ineffective as long as it's in the transport, meaning that an expensive unit with a long range gun is not on the table firing and making it more of an added tax to your army. The Chimera compliments troops with special weapons. The Rhino compliments units with special weapons. The Ghost Ark compliments units with solid unit shooting. How hard is this to understand? It does what it's supposed to very well? How? Why would I spend points on the devilfish when I could just bring more Firewarriors and they would be more survivable. I could just put them in a bastion for a better cost.

Um, your Fire Warriors have an effective 36" threat range, they don't need the Fish to augment that. What do they need? A fast durable skimmer to help them cap objectives late game. What does the army need? Mobile, hard to bring down, LOS/Cover Walls to JSJ behind, and a extra fodder to throw in the way of CC units. What does a Devilfish bring? All of those things.

I'm not saying Fish are amazing, or a must take, but they do a lot more for the army then just transport FWs and shoot burst cannons. If your appraisal stops there, your appraisal is basically meaningless.

Why do you think using Ethereals is not attractive?

Although he is weakest among almost ICs in 40K with his statline and gives extra VP when dead, IMO he is still worth to take.

Ethereal is most cheap HQ choice in the codex, and buffs all units within 12" of him, makes all units within 12" ld 10 in default.

When you take Ethereal, it means you focus on footslogging forces like FWs and Pathfinders, and ethereal boosts their effectiveness than any other HQs.
While other HQs like tau commander, fireblade, and darkstrider can benefits only 1 unit(not in case of Shadowsun, she can give cover to 1 unit and re-roll 1 to 1 unit) , ethereal boosts all of units within 12", at least half of your FWs and PFs in most cases.
Taking ethereal when you focus on Seven Samurais of Farsight or suits with shadowsun will be less fancy, but IMO still have its worth to take him when you going to field at least 3 units in your deployment zone.

Do you feel 6+ FnP is just a gimmick? How about when It gives 6+ FnP two Riptides? 5+ FnP of 2 Riptides are already 70 pts and takes up each a support system of them.
6+ FnP also benefits many of FWs and PFs, they are tend to take fires from small arms, rather than big guns stronger than S6.
You can roll to save them with even heavy flamethrower, although many of them are cannot be saved.


Focusing on the main theme of the thread, I do not agree with FWs are overpriced.

Maybe FWs are not the best statline in their points but FWs are designed to boost their effectiveness with rest of army, while devilfishes are not.

FWs can improve their cons by taking several factors during list building, while they have great firepower than any other troops in 40k.

First, low Ld can be improved by taking ethereal. Some people insist ethereals are not good as other choices but as above I do think taking ethereal is worth it. Taking a ethereal is much better than taking shas'uis with its 2+ roll of LoS. Although there is cases taking ethereal make FWs more vulnerable than taking Shas'uis like when hit by Psychic Shrike or Malanti of Doom, it happens scarcely.

Second, 4+ armor can be improved by taking ADL.
although AP4 barrage or Ignore cover can kill FWs straight on 2+ on most cases, peoples do not widely using AP4 barrage or Ignore cover weapons in tournament list because of their ineffectiveness against MEq, at least they may include some of the weapon but they will not focus on dealing with 4+ sv rather than dealing with 3+sv unless your local meta is no marines at all or all termies.
Also, T3 is still weak but 6+ FnP can be given. might not very helpful, but it will save about 1 more model against salvo of bolters.
If you like math, here is proof, 10 marines shoot rapid fires then 4.44 of your fire warriors will fail their save and 0.74 among your men will stand up and fight again.

Third, I do not think their lack of ability to deal with big target is big problem.
That is why other slots like Elite, Fast Attack and Heavy exists which abundant with Tau, and in return of loss of their big gun they have S5 long ranged rapid firing guns, superior than any other troops. Also its gun makes them manages to deal with light vehicle up to AV 11 or T8 creatures.
And versatile troops sounds good, but IMO in most cases they are always waste some of their firepower. When fire against infantries they waste big guns and when fired against big targets they waste their rapid fire weapons.

You mean IG can assault a unit with defensive grenades and a superior armor save and weather the storm of an entire armies worth of Overwatch, and "they will destroy them?" Do you have any idea how dead ass wrong that is?

Ignoring that the enemy sarge can more than likely carry a power weapon and would win a challenge, ignoring that the guard would go first, pretending that an entire army would be able to fire overwatch instead of maybe a few lucky wounds, ignoring that IG have much larger squad size and therefore able to take a few overwatch wounds. Is this a wrong off, because I think you'd win. IG hit more often, and hit first while FW will only really deal wounds in overwatch which will not aid in combat resolution. How's about we look at it like this. IG can charge firewarriors and have the odds in their favor of winning the assault alone, despite the better save of the firewarriors. Firewarriors have nothing they could really charge against and hope to reliably win. Is this easy enough to understand?

Or a 50 point Ethereal that buffs the entire army. Also, you pay 10 points for the Sarge, not 19. You've already paid the price for his Firewarrior stats and weapon. It is, technically, a 19 point model before upgrades (more gears), but that distinction is purely academic.

So then 10 points for +1 leadership is good? What about the ethereal? So all your army is within a 12" bubble? How will you defend your objectives and move forward while staying within 12"?

If there was only some way to make them Leadership 10 and stubborn to make everything you just said untrue. Hmmm. Let me check the codex. I'm sure I'll find it somewhere.

In a slot that's very competitive? I'm sure you will. So Firewarriors need a vulnerable HQ and Pathfinders to make the unit up to standard. That's the defense? Is that why Marines are good? Is every squad only good when they have an HQ attached and a fast attack unit to buff their shooting? Also why just stubborn? The unit won't be much of a tarpit really for long and it just makes the unit survive until the end of your turn, which benefits the enemy more.

So what? Those Heavies and Specials cost points, and up the cost of the IG squad, making them inherently less resilient. Fire Warriors are really 9 points/model, not lets pretend 6 points/model but really more because you'r upgrading gak. Once and IG squad loses it's Heavies/Specials it's basically a scoring unit and nothing else. Fire Warriors aren't dependent on one or two models to do meaningful damage.

But the IG squad is cheap. So the addition of heavy and special weapons isn't that much of a problem. But you also get special and heavy weapons throughout the army, while it's completely devoid from the troops of Tau and most FA is dedicated to assisting other units.

LOL. Supporting fire, when combined with competent placement, it's absolutely deadly. Sorry. And spreading your units out makes supporting fire better, not worse, you just have to keep one gimp within 6" of the other gimps. Pia Plates aren't 6" wide, and templates aren't really that big of a deal when they are hitting 1 or 2 dudes from two different units.

1/6 chance to hit, with 2/3 chance to wound, with 2/3 chance to save against the standard unit is deadly? You could spread your unit out and make a line of 12 firewarriors, but that still means only a few units will be able to assist and crisis suits will only assist with one weapon thanks to the wording of the multi-tracker. You could argue that markerlights will assist in overwatch, which is still 1/6 chance to hit and that will only slightly increase the chances of hitting in overwatch for another unit. But again, I'm not saying it's bad, just not really as game changing as some people assume it is. The problem is that it still encourages armies to be grouped up and running gunlines to make the most of it while advancing units will benefit less from it. I digress however and concede that it is a nice addition and certainly helps justify bringing firewarriors, provided you're getting assaulted. However if the assault doesn't happen, which is entirely in the enemy's control, then it's a rather useless ability for me.

SF is nice, I definitely wouldn't build around it, but it has done some really nice things for me in playtesting. Generally my backlines do stay within 12" of the Ethereal and it hardly gimps me as I use my allied Orks to push the midfield objectives (I tend to favor a 5x5 styled objective set-up, like NOVA) so being able to push midfield is more important to me than being able to reach enemy deployment.

This was my basic troop set up with fast attack choice from the last codex, which I go up or down due to point size of army list. I also use a great deal of drones in my army list

48 fire warriors 4 squads in Troops = 10x48 = 480 points
24 drones 8 models in 3 FA choices = 12x24 = 288 points total = 768

New Codex

48 fire warriors 4 squads in Troops = 9x48 = 432 points
24 drones 8 models in 3 FA choices = 14x24 = 336 points total = 768

However if you add 2 drones to per FW squad (which I do) then the difference is a +2 points per Drone which means that the FW +2 Drones is more 4 points more expensive in cost, per squad in the new codex than the old.

If they would have kept the drone cost down then it could have made up for some of the short comings of the Kroot.

I'll stand by my other posts concerning this new codex. 3 out of 5 stars I give because the Tau makes a great Ally detachment. The rip tide does not bother me one bit. The nerfing of vehicles does. The Space pope not an IC, Aun`shi being a meh IC now. Playing static lines and hiding around large pieces of terrain (ADL lines as well) gets rather boring after awhile.

The Tau had so much potential but these little nerfs brings the whole army down. Fire Warriors and a couple of other units hides those overall nerfs within this codex. But for what they do and what you need to fight MEQ's they are over priced.

Death by a thousand cuts.

I think being able to fire Str. 5 at ~36" range is pretty nice. Allows FW to be pretty nice backfield scorers that can contribute in a pinch.

Definitely not pushing as one of the best Troops around but I think that they are worth taking in almost any Tau list.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Um, your Fire Warriors have an effective 36" threat range, they don't need the Fish to augment that.

I know. That's why it hurts them to be inside the fish, because it takes away their shooting. Marines and other units that get special weapons often get fire points they can shot those nice special weapons from and still get to be useful.

What do they need? A fast durable skimmer to help them cap objectives late game.

Can we throw cost effective in there? Because the skimmer could do all that and cost 350 points and it would still be fine by your standard.

What does the army need? Mobile, hard to bring down, LOS/Cover Walls to JSJ behind, and a extra fodder to throw in the way of CC units.

Hard to bring down is debatable since they are so points heavy they can't be spammed like a rhino wall. I don't see how mobile they are, since the length of the body actually makes them hard to maneuver around especially if they try to clear any intervening terrain. But durable, so I'm assuming you're talking about a disruption pod and since it's mobile sensor spine equpped fish. That's 100 points! And it moves just as fast as a rhino while the rhino has nearly the same carrying capacity but is easier to hide. Cover walls for JSJ troops? Because no other army can do the turtle defense, and far cheaper? Because somehow terrain is not a part of the game and we need to pay 80 points for it's equivalent? What absurd claims.

What does a Devilfish bring? All of those things.

Yeah, if you all of those things plus a price tag and a transport that is not compatible with it's troops is "all of those things", but whatever.

I'm not saying Fish are amazing, or a must take, but they do a lot more for the army then just transport FWs and shoot burst cannons. If your appraisal stops there, your appraisal is basically meaningless.

Oh my... I think you just broke my brain. You just threw that out there and didn't even bother trying to explain it. I take it that you just threw that out there and no matter what anyone said in response you'll just make some silly argument about how we are too blind to use a transport right. Well, I'm not buying it. Mobile terrain? Anything works for that, so it's nothing the devilfish has special. Keeping a scoring unit alive? Keeping them in reserves and hiding them is far more cost effective. Moving units to claim back field objectives? Firewarriors are just fine on foot for the points it saves and Kroot can infiltrate. But I'm sure you'll make the comment that I'm missing some deep insight that you seem to have.

I think he (Shadar) means you can use Devilfish for things such as movement blocking and screening, which can be very effective for an army that primarily relies on shooting to do its lifting. I will say that I believe Piranha can do this much better and bring some nice shooting as well.

I, uh. I'm out. I can only talk to a brick wall for so long. Have fun losing games with your 2x6 Fire warrior squads dude. Just stubbornly stick to the extremely restricted tactics you know and don't open your mind to effective possibles if it makes you feel better about yourself, I guess.


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LValx wrote:
I think he (Shadar) means you can use Devilfish for things such as movement blocking and screening, which can be very effective for an army that primarily relies on shooting to do its lifting. I will say that I believe Piranha can do this much better and bring some nice shooting as well.

Very fair point. You lose the transporting capability, but you trade it for more bodies and better shooting. Of course, you have to have the FA slot open as well.

So supporting fire is pretty much the "Close Order Drill" Doctrine from 4th ed IG?

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I, uh. I'm out. I can only talk to a brick wall for so long. Have fun losing games with your 2x6 Fire warrior squads dude. Just stubbornly stick to the extremely restricted tactics you know and don't open your mind to effective possibles if it makes you feel better about yourself, I guess.

You do realize that Tau can take allies, right? On top of the best objective-clearing ability in the game? Taking minimum Fire Warriors really isn't a liability.


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ShadarLogoth wrote:
So every other turn removing the most important model in a unit is a gimmick? Are lascannons gimmicks too? Any idea on the success rate of a single lascannon?

It's not every other turn. With 20 snipers shooting for two turns you still only have an 85% chance of success (78% if they're in 5+ cover). So, after two turns you pretty much snipe something on a 2+, but after two turns of fire with a conventional unit you've probably just killed the entire target unit anyway. This makes sniping a gimmick.

Also, who cares about single lascannons? Nobody takes just one lascannon.

It's just a piece of the puzzle. To fully flesh it out you have to look at the entire resiliency matrix, ie the RPP values against all weapon types (or at least all the most common profiles). Once you have done this, you will realize that Fire Warriors are more resilient to some forms of fire power then other troops, and less resilient to others, but overall they will all fall into roughly the same neighborhood.

It's still an arbitrary value since you're combining several similar factors with your choice of weight for each of them (even if it's just all = 1). It might give some useful insight into how a unit works, but you can't just quote RPP values and declare that they're a final answer in the way that, say, average MEQ kills per turn is a final answer.

To start with, I'm ignoring the chunk of the discussion focusing on assault and defense against assault. Mobility and firepower have always seemed more effective than mobility and assault-based armies, and shock of shocks, Tau are going to suffer against good, shooty armies, so that assault point is almost moot. I do disagree with the statement that Firewarriors are vulnerable to assault from basic, non-assault troops like IG...overwatch, grenades, and most importantly +4 armor makes that fight a stalemate.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Stop saying this. It is dead ass wrong. Learn how to calculate RPP. FW, and especially Kroot, are in the same neighborhood of resiliency per point as every single other troop in the game.

This is easy to compute, but harder to apply to games, because a lot depends on what role you have the troop in question filling, enemy movement and weapons, etc. I do like the idea of a couple kroot squads in cover guarding near objectives more than firewarriors, although there is risk from things that ignore cover.

A squad of firewarriors and a devilfish is a bigger point investment, so it hurts more to dedicate them to just moving and seizing an objective.

Wait, why do they have to be spending the whole game in the Fish? You realize they can stay on the gun line and pewpew and only jump in the Fish late game to cap objectives right? You realize that the Fish is more resilient, and maneuverable, and therefore better at the role of getting a unit into position to take an objective late game then the Chimera is right? You realize that the Fire Warriors are just as, if not more resilient to shooting the the IG you are comparing them to right?

Or did you not realize any of those things? Which is cool. It's true though. So embrace it, I guess?

What kind of opponents do you play? The newbs with 40 tactical marines walking across the board towards your line? There's no way I'm going to get within range of your static firebase with anything it can hurt (or I care about losing), so I'll plink at range or target your actual few dangerous units for the first few turns. You can certainly walk out of cover to get in range, but T3 +4, even at medium range, is too squishy to be out in the open, especially with model cost so high that you're not spamming 20+ size units like orks (that, and 12 model cap). Plus, you've got a 80-95 point devilfish sitting next to the squad waiting? That's an effective use of that many points? If they're planning to move forward eventually, I assume they have a squad leader, as they'll be away from the ethereal?

Again, using IG as the comparison, for the about the same price as 12 firewarriors, squad leader and devilfish, I can get:
2 squads with autocannons
platoon command with 1 flamer
chimera
(plus, with a handful of points, I can make it much more effective by adding more flamers or special weapons).

Now I have several mid-strength guns (autocannons and multilaser, maybe a heavy bolter) that have greater range and are much harder to hide from. As the firewarriors benefit from an ethereal, the troops benefit from a command squad...not as reliably, but with useful, versatile benefits. The troops are less armored, but the near objective campers hide in cover (and have several more wounds) while the small platoon command is safe from small arms in the chimera, and can use it as cover once it gets to an objective. As guardsmen die, the majority of the squad's killing power (autocannons) function fine, while firewarriors lose a greater proportion of their firepower with every casualty. Everything has something to do every turn and contributes to the fight, except possibly the platoon command, which is 35 points invested in moving towards objectives and flaming anything that presents itself.

Now, every codex's troops will have different things they're good at, whether a specific role or skill as generalists. Orks are great, with very cheap grots to hold close objectives, freeing more points for boyz squads to advance and fight. There is risk, but I prefer not to have a large squad of boyz in the back field waiting all game on objective. Firewarriors fill the least important role in the game: efficiently killing light infantry and threatening light armor, and even the first part of that is suspect as kroot are about as good, point-efficiency-wise, at killing troops. They aren't tough enough (numbers-wise, T or armor, cover/stealth, etc) to hold near objectives, they are expensive and soft for advancing to take objectives, they are short-ranged and underpowered for a firebase...they don't even really sacrifice themselves to affect enemy deployment or movement like, say melta/plasma biker squads would.

But please, prove me wrong with your tournament batreps with large firewarrior firebases.

Another thing people seem to completely ignore about the Fish is it is relatively resilient mobile LOS/Cover. Anybody think an army filled with JSJ units and things like Aun'va might be able to take advantage of putting an AV12 3+ Cover Wall in front of them? Anybody? Am I really having to point this out to people? I spend 20 points more on a GA that is almost exactly as resilient as the Fish just to use it for that purpose and repairing Warriors.

Wait, I thought the devilfish sat by your firewarrior squads while they pew-pewed? How many of these things are you bringing to a fight? Say, at 1850 points? They're big, but even with the lowest flying stands, it could be tough to hide many suits behind devilfish completely. Maybe my lack of vision is to blame, but I can't envision how a Tau list is constructed and generally operates to be successful against a wide variety of opponents.

I completely disagree. In a few months good players will realize that the sum of the Tau parts put their Troops equal to or above other troops, and will build their armies accordingly. Meanwhile, people stuck in the mindsets of 5th edition will continue to field crappy lists with 2x6 Fire Warriors, and rage quit because "their new codex sucks."

Also, please define "gimmick" for me. Is a Librarian a "gimmick"? Is a Haemonculus a "gimmick"? How about a Blood Priest? Because...the mechanics of the Ethereal are just as ..."gimmicky" as any of those other HQs (or elites for the BP), which just so happen to all be considered must takes for their respective army. I always love it when people try to use the word gimmick to somehow arbitrarily draw an imaginary line between legitimate game mechanics and what they perceive as inferior options.

Anytime you have the "sum of parts" argument, you need to be careful. Sometimes it works well, as the various parts do their roles well, and the army functions effectively. The problem with Tau appears to be the synergy depends on several lynchpins, and if those are knocked out, the army suffers greatly. Markerlights were a "gimmick" in the last edition...expensive system to establish, and while helpful, not really worth the points. Plus, markerlights were clumped into certain units (pathfinders), so if they were potentially going to be a problem, and enemy could kill a few GEQs in the woods at under 36". The new codex is slightly better in this regard, but I think ultimately spending points on markerlights to make existing guns more effective isn't going to be as efficient as other armies' just taking more guns.

The ethereal is along the same lines...the leadership bubble is great, but the shooting boost is for small arms, which, again, is the least important in the game, and it comes at the cost of potential suits with special/heavy weapons.

Immortals don't spam S5? The only other reason that other armies don't spam S5 is because they can't bring entire troop selections with it (or have to pay a hefty price for it, GK). 9 Points for a 30" Rapid fire S5 is "expensive"? ...I, just...I don't even know how to respond to that. Marines must absolutely suck ass then, having to pay 13 to 15 points for a gakky ass Bolter.

I could have sworn that Necron guns had other special rules, like always glancing on a "6". That makes a huge difference. Now the unit can threaten any unit on the board, and it is very tough to kill. Firewarriors have neither ability.

I think a good Tau list can mask the "weaknesses" of Fire Warriors by presenting more pressing targets to focus on. If you spend all game ignoring Broadsides/Riptides/etc., they will end up doing a large amount of damage.

I do agree that FW will have a difficult time advancing to take objectives, but I also think using them in such a manner is a bad idea. If you need to use a unit for pushing up the field it should be Kroot. They do pretty well at camping objectives because they can GTG for a great save. Of course, certain units can ignore cover saves, but if they are focusing down Kroot the rest of your army should be in decent shape.

I find it nice to have a backfield scoring unit that can lend a hand in shooting due to having 30" range guns.

Also, BS3 isn't terrible. I keep seeing people act as though BS3 is so bad that it cannot be relied upon and that due to such low BS, Markerlights are absolutely necessary to function. I don't agree with this at all. Broadsides for example, function well without Markerlights as BS3 TL is actually better than BS4. If you army is built around Broadsides as supporting fire I really don't see why you MUST have ML support in order for them to function. I think it is perfectly viable to build Tau armies that make no use of MLs and instead bring extra firepower to bear.

In my experience, i've spent a lot of time with my Pathfinders going to ground to keep them alive and thus not being able to make full use of my Markers and yet i've still had plenty of success. I think that believing that MLs are the only way to build a good force is a bit narrow-minded and will lead a lot of players to building weaker armies by taking LESS guns than needed and focusing too heavily on support options.

I don't understand how someone can say small arms are the "least important" in the game.

I ask you this: have you seen lists that have been winning large events in the US? Many of them rely heavily on large amounts of Infantry because 6th has upped the importance of capturing and holding objectives. This change in how people list-build has made, IMO, infantry small arms one of the most important weapon types in the game.

For example, Tony Kopach, the wunderkid is now playing this monstrosity:
2 Rune Priests
Primaris Psyker
2x PCS (nude)
2x 50 Guard blob with Power Axes and no additional upgrades
5 GH
2x Manticore
3x Vendetta

Against such a list it is extremely important to have lots and lots of Str. 4-6 in order to be able to focus down those large blobs that will move to midfield in order to capture what is often the most important objective in a game (middle). Hell, his army does most of it's heavy lifting with Str.3 Lasguns. How can you say that it is the least important type of weaponry then? Check out Andrew Gonyo's GK/IG builds. Very similar. Large focus on Storm Bolters and Lasguns because both of those guns, in large numbers, do a very good job of stacking wounds on infantry (IMO, the name of the game currently).