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So, for fluff reasons, I'm starting to warm to the idea of possibly including a small GK force to go sidecar to my guard army. After taking a cursory glance over the codex, I'm starting to question it, tactically, though.

I mean, I know that GK really like themselves their psycannons, but I look at them and think that I'm a guard player, and aren't stuck with only one weapon that can do anything. Anything I'd want said weapon for, I could do better in my codex. Right away that... well... kind of limits the options. For example, what are purifiers for? Shooting things with storm bolters and psycannons. So what? What are paladins for? Doing that exact same thing but costing a lot more and being harder to kill. I mean, there are some options for things that the guard really can't do (like land raiders), but the price tag for my allied contingent would very, very quickly overrun the kinds of points I'm willing to pay.

Really, the only thing that strikes me as obviously beneficial to a guard army is the assassins, especially the vindicare. A guard army has no proper analogue to this unit, and I could see them being rather useful.

On a related note, what do you do for troops? The best I can come up with at the moment is coteaz, three multimelta servitors and two joakero in a chimera. Not too expensive, and pretty shooty, but they're not really adding much that my meltagun mechvets can't accomplish. The one thing that seems very obviously different is storm shields, but I don't know how I like the idea of a squad of henchmen wandering around, hoping to get into close combat, and hoping that nobody volume of fires them.

So, it makes me wonder, what does GK really have to offer to an IG list, especially a meched one?

A deepstrike unit that can fire 20 s6 bolter shots and have ap3 cc weapons, and save on 3+.

That's all I can see.

Or Coteaz, divination, 7 stormbolter henchmen, 3 HB servitors, 2 jokaero and a psyfledread.

You cover a good place from deepstrikers and have shooty thingies.

They offer durable infantry that can put out a lot of S5/7 firepower with a 30" threat range, and which can be re-rolled via Coteaz's Prescience. 10 Grey Knights in power armor with psybolts, a hammer, and two psycannons comes in at 250 points. These units are excellent for applying pressure while advancing into the midfield. They can also deep strike.

Being able to take a Dreadknight is another thing to consider. 230 points gets you one with a teleporter and a heavy incinerator. Nothing in the IG codex fills the same role.

Also, Grey Knights have Preferred Enemy against Daemons, which makes them significantly more effective versus armies from Codex: Chaos Daemons and many popular units from Codex: Chaos Space Marines (Obliterators, Deamon Princes, Heldrakes, etc.).

but once again, it's just mid-strength firepower. We're talking about an army that can chimera spam, and bring tons of heavy bolters if we really want them (which we don't, because we've got better guns), and we can bring punisher cannons, including twin-linked ones on fliers if we're of that persuasion. And for deepstriking, we already have stormtroopers, which can be spammed in suicide strike squad formations for cheap.

And we've got durability from tanks. It's hard for me to see spending a bunch of points on Sv3+ as little more than finally giving my opponents something to shoot their plasma guns at.

I suppose they do have psychic powers, but, being non-battle-brothers, they can't use them on my guard units that I'm already taking. That sort of just leaves... well... presciencing mid-strength firepower, doesn't it?

Danny Internets wrote:Nothing in the IG codex fills the same role.

Yes. It's called the hellhound. I can take two for the price of one dreadknight.

Danny Internets wrote:Grey Knights have Preferred Enemy against Daemons, which makes them significantly more effective versus armies from Codex: Chaos Daemons and many popular units from Codex: Chaos Space Marines (Obliterators, Deamon Princes, etc.).

Okay, that's a real reason. Is it really worth the ally tax just to get preferred enemy against only some armies, though?

Biggest thing that my IG army has benefitted from the GK allies is the us of warp quake. Keeps those deep striking pods and other nasty stuff away from my guns.

What I have used for GK allies.

Brotherhood champion. Best points for war gear/abilities. 2+\4+.
Strike squad with psycannon.
Razorback with psy ammo

That is the basics. If more points are available:

Interceptor squad (10) with incinerator x2.
Any assassin you want.
Dread knight.

Yes. It's called the hellhound. I can take two for the price of one dreadknight.

Oh, your Hellhounds can move 30", have a 2+ save, and can challenge enemy characters in close combat? I guess you really do learn something new every day.

Okay, sure, warpquake too. There's not a whole lot of deepstrikers in my area (previous game excluded). It feels like something that I could partially handle with a officer of the fleet and fishing for the -1 reserves strategic warlord trait to handle.

Danny Internets wrote:Oh, your Hellhounds can move 30", have a 2+ save, and can challenge enemy characters in close combat?

Dreadknights can only shunt once, and hellhounds are a fast vehicle. Meanwhile, I'd take immunity to anything worse than S6 (and, let's be honest, a good-enough immunity up to S7 or 8) than a 2+ saves. I've taken down dreadknights with volume of fire before.

Meanwhile, a guard player is bringing nothing like a dreadknight to close combat. If my opponent is worried about close combat, there is going to be nothing other than the dreadknight to shoot at.

And that's really the problem, the dreadknight isn't really adding anything new to a guard army. I can already take S6 torrent weapons on fast platforms, and on a carrier that actually synergizes with the rest of my army. You can argue that the dreadknight is slightly better until you're blue in the face, but it still won't change the fact that little is really being added that guard couldn't already do.

GK do two things:

1) Warp quake. Metagame-specific, but if you frequently encounter deep striking units warp quake completely removes them.

2) Durable infantry. The one thing IG suck at is mid-field objective holders (Sabre platoons and Harker squads can hold the "home" ones), and GK give you infantry that you can push forward and not immediately lose as soon as their transport explodes.

Sure, but if I wanted a scoring unit that didn't really do anything until the end of the game on a reasonably durable platform, then why not just take veterans in a vendetta?

With the henchmen, it is a bit of a different story, as you can wring an awful lot of killing power out of a relatively small points footprint. 3x multimelta and 2x joakero shooting out of a chimera hatch is a very different story than a 10-man strike squad just sort of... sitting there. Hoping to kill something with storm bolters.

I guess I could see this argument for GKTs, but once again, they're expensive and I kind of quiestion how much they're going to do other than score (or, more precisely, get shot up with plasma guns and then hope they're still alive long enough to score).

 Ailaros wrote:
Sure, but if I wanted a scoring unit that didn't really do anything until the end of the game on a reasonably durable platform, then why not just take veterans in a vendetta?

Who said they don't do anything? GK moving forward (like I said) will be shooting all game and maybe even assaulting occasionally. That's hardly "not doing anything".

And you're right, why not take veterans in a Vendetta? It's a question we've been asking you for a while.

Hoping to kill something with storm bolters.

Why are you ignoring the psycannons?

DKs are awesome and to simply say that Hellhound fulfills the same role is madness. The DK, IMO, is much better. It cannot be shaken, stunned, immobolised or one-shotted. It also puts pressure on units in CC (MCs especially).

Coteaz is nice for psychic shenanigans. Strike marines are good for midfield control.

And since you are IG primary you can take 3 Vendettas to counter those pesky Heldrakes that have been making GK look bad.

Because so what about the psycannons? It's not like guardsmen can't find S7 in their codex anywhere.

So, on a bit further examination, it seems that what the real thing that GK can offer is their special characters.

275 points is a lot, but Justicar Thawn is a "permanent" scoring unit. Like conscripts, but he comes with terminator armor, and can deepstrike over there, rather than only coming on your own board edge every turn.

Meanwhile, IG don't have anything even roughly analogous to Stern's zone of banishment. Or Coteaz's initiative seizing control, or grand strategy. Creed scouting one of certain units isn't as good as a grand master scouting D3 of any of them, or making ogryn score, or strange things like that.

I suppose if they're not synergizing much with durability (due to lack of redundancy) or killing power (because guard guns are largely better), it would have to be the big basket of strange little strategic things they get.

Psycannons are awesome. They rend, which is extremely helpful vs MCs, they can hurt any vehicle in the game. They will be more accurate than your Guard autocannons.

Paladins + Draigo and a DK could be an option as well. All of those targets require high Str. weaponry to put down so it should mesh well with an IG force that takes vehicles. I could see this working.

But why are they awesome FOR GUARD? I can already handle MCs with massive plasma spam, much less sheer volume of fire from massed troops choices and punisher cannons. Meanwihle, vendettas, manticores, medusas, devil dogs, melticide stormies, vanquishers, etc. etc. can also hurt any vehicle in the game. Once again, the guard is not lacking in this department. We're not talking about if the psycannon is the best weapon for GK, we're asking if it's the best weapon for guard, which it isn't.

And the problem with draigo and paladins is that they can EASILY cost 600 points, for a pretty minimal squad of them. At anything less than 1850 points, it would basically be me playing draigowing with some guard allies by that point...

You dont have to take 10 Paladins. I've seen them used fine as 5 man squads. Either way, Guard can struggle to take midfield, which can be important depending on the format. The way we play out here at NOVA and some of the other east coast tournies, it is very, very important to be able to capture the middle. Guard struggle with that and it is useful to have MEQs or Terminators to do that job.

In fact, I'd say that is the biggest thing any ally can really offer Guard. Either scoring durability for midfield, or fast assault units.

 Ailaros wrote:
But why are they awesome FOR GUARD?

They aren't awesome. You don't take GK just to have access to psycannons, but they make those durable scoring units a legitimate shooting threat. Each one is effectively a rending autocannon, two rending autocannons if you stand still or have terminator armor. You have to look at the whole package, GK give you a unit of MEQs/TEQs with STR 5 storm bolters and "autocannons", and decent assault ability. So you have a relatively tough scoring unit sitting in midfield with enough shooting to contribute while they move up and claim objectives, and enough melee to handle most things that aren't dedicated melee units.

Yes, Vendetta vets can do some of this, but if you're going to talk about how Vendetta vets as a reason not to use GK troops then you need to start bringing Vendetta vets in your lists.

Two reasons:
1) More awesome.
You like fast moving heavy flamers? GK have that. You've run out of FOC for mech vets? GK can bring a highly customisable version. You want more mid strength spam? GK have plenty.

2) 2+ 5++ scoring units that contribute to the game.

Grey Knights can bring upfield scoring presence that isn't a guard blob. Scoring Terminators are cool. If you take Mordrak as your Allied HQ, you can get 5 no-scatter DS terminators turn 1, and a scoring Dreadknight. Or you can put Coteaz with a bunch of Death Cult Assassins and Crusaders in a Land Raider, giving you another vehicle and CC threat.

The Grey Knights codex is a very wide codex, and if you're taking them as allies, you should look at some of the more unique things they can do. I actually agree that just taking strikes isn't what you should be doing. If you want Power armor, just ally in space wolves, put a rune priest in a guard blob, and now you have a prescience'd, ATSKNF guard blob, alongside grey hunters. Look at the extremes of the GK dex, specialized henchmen, CC HQs, Troop Terminators, Jump Monstrous Creatures, Deep Striking Threats, to get value for them as allies to IG.

There really is not anything that guard can't do. that is one of the reasons why they are a very powerful codex. If there was a major abiility or type of weapon they were lacking, then that could be exploited against them.

You have good flyers, good troops that can either go on foot or be mechanized. Lots of long range firepower, short range firepower and even some close combat ability.


However, what guard usually lacks are generalist units.


Most guard units are rather cheap and are good at one things. They are specialists.

Most GK units are above average at a lot of different things, but are more expensive. They are generalists.


Strike Squads are good because they are mobile, Scoring, and have Above Average shooting ability and Combat ability. This gives you lots of options as how to play them. You can out shoot combat units or close in and fight shooty units.

GK units are all a bit similar, because they are all different variations of generalists. Some with more combat power, some with more shooting power, some with more durability. It is how the GK codex is built.


The best analog to that in the Guard book might be a Blobed up Platoon. You can have a lot of power Axes and stubborn for combat ability, and Plasma guns and Autocannons for shooting power. The advantage of the Strike squad is that it is smaller and easier to transport and hide. It can win combats forcing the enemy to run away, rather then relying on stubborn to "lose" combat while taking out the enemy unit slowly.


==========


Most codexes have a little bit of everything in them. The designers want to give each Force options for long range shooting, short range shooting, Anti- tanks and Anti- horde stuff, ect.

Only some of the older books have a real gap when it comes to flyers and ways to fight flyers.


When you are taking 2 allied forces, there is usually very little that one force can do that another could not do [unless you are looking at the oldest books]

======

Also, in general, GK make poor allies. They have no battle brothers, so they have no way to make combo's with their allies. As generalists, they are not bringing anything exciting to bear.

Consider these units for your Guard force:

Purifiers
can shoot really well, and cleansing flame is a very powerful ability to fight hordes in close combat.

Henchmen
Most shooty henchmen look like guard units, but there is nothing like a DCA+Crusader deathstar in the Guard book.

Interceptors or Teleporter Knights combined with Grand Strategy
Very mobile scoring units with shooting ability and combat ability [though it is a big investment]

Techmarine
Can buff a GK unit in close combat with Rad grenades. Can bolster a ruin for a 3+ cover save for a guard unit.

Coteaz is always a steal for 100 pts.
The dreadknight I use as a safety. Assault my guard line and he will shunt toward and engage those enemy units in h2h.
Henchmen - these guys have so many fun options, although I like giving them bolters. Plasma servitors are fairly cheap also. DCA, say no more. Jokero - litterly a Swiss Army knife.
You have the bonus of being able to take razors, rhinos or chimeras.
Thematically I think it's cool to have Coteaz leading an army of henchmen with a guard contingent allied in.

I'm not sure of the points but I feel like the following will give you the best that the GK have to offer to IG:

GK Terminator Librarian

1 x Paladin with Hammer

1 x 5 GK Terminators with Psycannon

I can't recall exact points but I think the GKTL is around the 125 mark and the termies with psycannon are about 225~. The paladin with hammer is...55 maybe? All in all around 400-500 if you upgrade at all. It's a nice allied contingent for a 1500 point Guard/GK list. The whole force will deepstrike into the backfield, preferably in cover and on an enemy objective. Now you have 6 Terminator models with a Psyker to buff them laying down the hurt on rear armor and overall being a thorn in the enemy's side. The solodin is a very versatile unit that can often make an impact far beyond its point cost. Drop him in the same way as the GKTs and Librarian, near cover, on an objective and then Holocaust the nearest blob of troops. If they don't devote any fire to him then you've assured linebreaker and possibly denied an objective. In kill point games you can drop him behind your wall of armor to deny him from the enemy.

But that's the basic gist. It'll act as a tough, durable-per-point blob of units that your enemy HAS to clear out of their backfield or suffer some serious retaliation. It'll compliment your super-fast mech guard by providing even more threats.

GK Librarian costs 150 base
You could bring a Inq with lvl 1, termi, Daemon Hammer and Psycannon for 110.


However you could take DA allies for that.
Librarian, Terminator, 95
Deathwing Knights, 235
5*Tac, ML, 85
That's 415.
You've then got options for Black Knights, a really powerful option for getting into their faces.

 Blaggard wrote:

However you could take DA allies for that.

The issue with going for battle brothers is that all of the choices pale compared to Space Wolves.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Blaggard wrote:

However you could take DA allies for that.

The issue with going for battle brothers is that all of the choices pale compared to Space Wolves.

Azrael in a blob disagrees.

I suppose that depends on your meta. I find that blobs with ATSKNF behind an aegis last long enough without the need for a 4++.
The 4+ psychic power nullification is the best thing in any codex ever, especially with 50 ablative wounds protecting it.

But if it's psykers being worried over, why not a culexus assassin?

It seems that the assassins with their special rules and the special characters with their special rules are really what GK have to offer guard here. I'm sure that seer council or squad of zoanthropes is going to feel really cool when they get instant deathed by a BS8 Ap1 weapon.

And null rods, and mindstrike missiles, and psyk-out grenades, etc.

I think GK would be one of the better armies for psychic defense, actually.

I would first decide if you wanted to do the Inquisition side or the Daemonhunter side of Grey Knights first. They're different groups to some fluff purists out there.

Inquisition side there's nothing really in there that Guard doesnt do 1000 times better already. Jokaeros maybe. You could get some death cult assassins and get some really good melee units for your guard.

If you wanted to rock just Grey Knight units, I think a lot of options in the IG codex are just better than Grey Knights.

I run 2 ravens now, and the mindstrike missiles are very good at killing psykers. The other option is a psyfleman, with reinforced aegis on any units within 12 or something. Would be a good way to protect a gunline from psychic powers.

I think for allies, coteaz would be the best option, divination, IBEY and henchman troops for only 100 points is a steal for what he brings.

You will struggle to find a gk player that brings an assassin these days, and if so, its mostly the vindicare. However after using him several times he just always dies first turn as your opponent will target him. I would personally not bother with any of them.

Another options is an inquisitor, max unit of deathcults/crusaders and a raven. Should be cheap and gives you a durable flyer, and a great assault unit.

Inquisitor, rad grenades, power armour, power weapon
3 crusaders, 5 death cults
raven
5 strikes, psycannon

485 points

Raven brings anti flyer, psyker, and carrying a good assault unit. Strikes fill the troops choice, however warp quake will be so important to you guard against drop pods, daemons etc. Or you can deepstrike them to take a far away objective. Not sure how good this is, but made it up in about 5 seconds, seems decent enough.

If you want to be competitive, just take guard tbh

Ailros are you planning to stay mech'd up or go back to footsloggers?

There are a few things the grey knights can bring that the IG cannot bring. However there are only TEQ and MC that the IG cannot actually cover and the IG has never really felt the loss. As Griddlelol has already pointed out SW are/have been the better allies choice due to battle brothers alone as joining IG squads with IC can quickly become extremely powerful.

Peregrine already pointed out the TEQ and MEQ aspect pretty well. They are a viable alternative to vendetta vets and can add extra "distraction" factor into the enemies plans allowing you to more easily trap them in their deployment zone or to get another turn of firing. They also add a key element the IG lack; scoring tough up-fielders.

The dreadknight has been pointed out earlier as being a good option. Again this unit is pretty good for guard as it is a MC which we cannot get and it is the perfect shunt forward and cause havoc in the enemy deployment zone unit. Your chimera advance becomes much easier when the opponent spend first turn trying to kill a dreadknight in cover right next to their deployment zone. Then turn 2 your mechvets can do their 12" love taps with minimal casualties.

If you want to do an inquisition army I really like a 3 man henchman squad in a psyammo-assault cannon razorback. Comes just under 100 pts and is 4 24" S7 rending shots a turn each. The survivability is not great until you advance them behind a wall of IG leman russ' which suddenly makes them reasonably survivable. Add in a dreadknight or two to distract the enemy gunlines out there and you will be surprised how effective this can be. The only bad thing is that you would not technically be playing imperial guard but you would still be using IG models for the troops and could have a force "drafted" by an inquisitor into service.

Quick question. I have been really wanting to include some terminators in my IG and, through some research, GK terminators seem like the best choice. How do you keep these guys cheap yet effective. I was looking at doing a 10 man squad with a librarian for allies, but it is coming out to around 700 points and that is a lot to sink into an ally detachment.