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Ok here it is, its designed to be, well, killy and resilient. Let me know what you think.
OLD

Lord, MoK, Jugger, AoBF, MB, SoC, VoTLW

Lord, MoK Jugger, LC, PF, SoC, VoTLW

7 Bikes, MoK, 2 plasma g., PF, PP

Land Raider, DC

Land Raider, DC

HD

HD

Defiler

10 cultists

10 cultists

10 cultists

1749

Revised list: 4/19/13

Lord, MoK, Jugger, AoBF, MB, SoC, VoTLW

Demon Prince, MoT, PA, Wings, Black Mace

6 Bikes, MoK, 2 plasma g., PF, PP

Land Raider

Land Raider, DC

HD

HD

mauler fiend- lasher T

10 cultists

10 cultists

10 cultists

1747

Ouch. 2 Cadillacs to transport troops but nothing but the homeless(cultists) to ride in them? I have to beleve 2 units of CSM or berzerkers would be more resilient.

Every gun the enemy has is going to be trained on the bikes and lords. Every single gun in the game is capable of damaging them and they'll eventually fail their saves.

Agree with above, Landraiders need to be filled with something scary. Bike sqauds are tough, but not tough enough to carry your entire army through to turn 5 alone. You need to make your opponent choose his targets and regret the decision later.

I would look at your deployment and say to myself, I'll just blow up his bike squad before it gets to me, Dog pile it if it does, then just wait for the cultists to pile out late game and shoot them off objectives which... might take 4 boltguns to accomplish.

What is a DC on a Land Raider and what is HD?

I would trade one lord for as many KB I could get and put that in a LR.

Trade the 30 cultist for 1 squad of KB and put that in the other LR.

Now you have 1 lord on jugger with bikers, 2 LR with 2 scary KB squads, and a Defiler. 4 target saturation vs. 1 biker squad.

I forget, can the defiler move 12" and shoot that battle cannon? Because I am afraid you cant snap shot blast weapons.

Well KB completely suck and are still way over priced and I can't understand the idea of filling a LR with power armor and saying it's more resilient. You buy the LR because almost nothing in the current meta can take it out, so I don't want to waste points on armord troops.

Chaos land raiders lack PoMS and max at 10 guys so they are awful as assault carriers IMO because if you rush them up you can't fire the guns that you are paying top dollar for.

Basically I reserve one unit of cultist and keep the other two safe in the LR until its time to grab objectives last turn. If I go second I can keep them safer longer, If I go first they need to deal with my assault bomb.

BTW the two land raiders make a HUGE wall for my bikes and lords should I need it.

HD=heldrake
DC=Dirge caster


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eboncrow wrote:
Agree with above, Landraiders need to be filled with something scary. Bike sqauds are tough, but not tough enough to carry your entire army through to turn 5 alone. You need to make your opponent choose his targets and regret the decision later.

I would look at your deployment and say to myself, I'll just blow up his bike squad before it gets to me, Dog pile it if it does, then just wait for the cultists to pile out late game and shoot them off objectives which... might take 4 boltguns to accomplish.

Or try, bikes are out of site and armored wall creeps up begging you to try to get close so my assault unit can hop around and mangle you. Keep in mind folks that the two lords and bikes are a complete throw away unit, the idea is for them to distract or counter assault.

I like the LR wall idea but would find it unnatural to hold back the bikes.

The first tactic isn't a go-er with the current list. If the landraiders don't hold a threatening unit and hold back they will be ignored. The first tactic could be better if you traded the landraiders in for a havoc units with dedicated transport rhinos; or a havoc and a chosen with plasma weapons. Deploy the rhinos in cover (equiped with havoc launchers) or out of sight and deploy the cultist objective grabbers next to them and move them in in the first turn. Any spare points fill up the HW spot with a lascannon pred and then start taking helbrutes. Yes helbrutes! Get the HW you are facing shooting the -in cover- helbrutes, pred and havocs and not the bikes.

If you keep the current list I think you'll need to run the second tactic with the landraiders going forwards and shielding the bikes for the first turn. The defiler is interesting, he could be ditched to pay for a maulerfiend and buffing one of the culist units in the LR to a space marine unit. The maulerfiend will take a bit of the heat off the bikes (if they are in LOS) and help with the assault.

The only problem I can see with the second list is if the enemy can get around the sides of the landraider to start targetting the bikes with small shooty units (too small for a combat monster blob to take out) - I'm thinking deff coptas, infiltrators, other bikes. But I suppose that's only one turn of a bit of shootyness before the bikes are unleashed.

Last I checked, Lascannons are pretty damn popular heavy weapon choices. So whatever meta you play in that doesn't do 'Las and Plas', consider yourself lucky. You will indeed ruin their day.

Now, on a serious note... 30 cultisits? Zerkers are dogs? Filling a LR with power armor isn't more resilient than naked cultisits? Hate to break it to ya, but if that Lascannon that no one is using pens you, your LR is blowing up 33% of the time, hitting each bum (and your bikers sucking on the exhaust pipe) with Str 4 wounds. Man... hate to see your face when your own LRs kill a bunch of your bikers where they explode because you roll bad, but I am sure that will never happen.

Put CC CSMs in your LRs... make them 10 man squads with 2 melta guns, MoK, VotLW, extra CC weapon (or replace the bolters), and a IoV (215pts replacing the bolters, btw) and you have something people might actually respect and will survive if/when your LR gets popped. Will actually make those Dirge Casters worthwhile to boot. What do you ditch to get this? Up to you...

Defiler is a dog due to the battle cannon. If you could ditch it and replace it with something better... or anything, would be worth it. But your kinda paying points for it and your stuck with it. Why it is really not worth it anymore.

Yeah I see a fair few Lascannons as well, but they're not the only or indeed worst threat to the big wagons.
No on in you meta is running drop pod spam? Sternguards with combimeltas and Wolf guard termies with combimeltas are very popular antitank tactics where I play, and can make serious dents in your LR's.
What about Wyches with haywiregrenades?
What about IG vets in Valkyries with meltaspam?
What about Crons and all that gauss weaponry?

All of the above are quick and in most cases fairly cheap ways to end your little convoy, just saying.

so faced by your army...

Ignore the landraiders. At most they are going to kill one vehicle or 3 to 5 infantry.

Concentrate all firepower on your bikes. They must die as they are the only threat.

The cultists... one unit can bee line to the open squad and kill it... you are not controlling your home objective...

So now it is turn 2... I will hope some bikes are alive... so again they must die... now we have heldrakes... They are the real pain... If I have autocannons, flyers or lootas, they will hopefully be glanced to death. So hopefully by turn 4... I have two smoking heldrakes and a dead cultist unit... So the only thing I have to sweat is two mobile pillboxes...
If I have MCs, Power Claws, Melta guns or haywire grenades they are dead because nothing coming out of them is going to scare me....

Lets go cheap... not berzerkers... Say 10 CSM.. 140 points with 2 flamers and a combi--flamer 160 points... If I don't want to spend as much even 5 CSM with combi-flamer and flamer for 90 points... as opposed to 50 points for my cultists...

The idea is I need my landraiders to be a threat or the enemy is going to ignore them... If he doesn't have a lot of high-priced vehilcles, 4 TL Lascannons are not a worry.
So I need something - at most - 250 points to be a threat. Now because I have two khorne lords, and I have no troops I need them to be a troop choice. So my options are berzerkers or CSM with or without a mark and ideally with the extra close combat weapon...

How do I afford this? Well my auto drop are the cultists - that is 150 points... So now my choice is drop a helldrake or drop a khorne lord. All of these weaken my army but I have to chose to lose 1 of them.

DAaddict wrote:so faced by your army...

Ignore the landraiders. At most they are going to kill one vehicle or 3 to 5 infantry.

Concentrate all firepower on your bikes. They must die as they are the only threat.

The cultists... one unit can bee line to the open squad and kill it... you are not controlling your home objective...

So now it is turn 2... I will hope some bikes are alive... so again they must die... now we have heldrakes... They are the real pain... If I have autocannons, flyers or lootas, they will hopefully be glanced to death. So hopefully by turn 4... I have two smoking heldrakes and a dead cultist unit... So the only thing I have to sweat is two mobile pillboxes...
If I have MCs, Power Claws, Melta guns or haywire grenades they are dead because nothing coming out of them is going to scare me....

Lets go cheap... not berzerkers... Say 10 CSM.. 140 points with 2 flamers and a combi--flamer 160 points... If I don't want to spend as much even 5 CSM with combi-flamer and flamer for 90 points... as opposed to 50 points for my cultists...

The idea is I need my landraiders to be a threat or the enemy is going to ignore them... If he doesn't have a lot of high-priced vehilcles, 4 TL Lascannons are not a worry.
So I need something - at most - 250 points to be a threat. Now because I have two khorne lords, and I have no troops I need them to be a troop choice. So my options are berzerkers or CSM with or without a mark and ideally with the extra close combat weapon...

How do I afford this? Well my auto drop are the cultists - that is 150 points... So now my choice is drop a helldrake or drop a khorne lord. All of these weaken my army but I have to chose to lose 1 of them.

Seriously, your advice to add offense is to drop cheap troops, to pay a premium for 5-10 none ATSKNF marines with a flamer which by the way I also need to drop a lord or a helldrake to afford? Sorry but 160 for a few flame templates isn't a good solution, I just end up with a confused unit, does it rush forward to burn things or does it use the twin linked weapons on the tank? Again, IMO cultists are the best filler for land raiders because they have no power of the machine spirit, making chaos LR less mobile.

Blakman wrote:Yeah I see a fair few Lascannons as well, but they're not the only or indeed worst threat to the big wagons.
No on in you meta is running drop pod spam? Sternguards with combimeltas and Wolf guard termies with combimeltas are very popular antitank tactics where I play, and can make serious dents in your LR's.
What about Wyches with haywiregrenades?
What about IG vets in Valkyries with meltaspam?
What about Crons and all that gauss weaponry?

All of the above are quick and in most cases fairly cheap ways to end your little convoy, just saying.

If I am playing DP why do you assume I am stupid enough to leave my cultists in my tanks or not to reserve them? I love the idea that DP magically come in, on target before I can react with my depoyment and that I am dumb enough not to mitigate their effect. If I know DP are soming in turn 1 I reserve 2 nits of cultists and castle my tanks in the corner and string my cultists out 5" in front of my castle, can't fit a pod there and can't run up to within 1" of my string meaning you don't achieve melta range, my turn I waste your DP units at the cost of what? One 50 point screen. DP are a bad match up, but then again filling my LR with marines doesn't solve this. Every list will have issues with something as for the other listed armies, you must be kidding, Guass? Run the numbers, they are short ranged and you need 36 shots to strip 4 HP, I haven't even seen a list with more then 20 guass weapons in it since the 4th edition codex was legal. Everyone used tesla unless they're bad. As for IG, they are a bad match for chaos anyway, LR laugh at the valks or dettas, and in order to use melta vetts from one you either suicide chute them or switch to hover mode, I play IG melta vets go in chimeras generally, cheap scoring units go in birds for last turn. As for wyches, easy I shoot them and watch the boat and crew burn, not really something I am afraid of. I play DE and venom wyches are not as easy button at all, a stiff fart takes them out and I never run more then 2 of those units. They literally can't assault turn one, so I am going to kill then by turn 2.

BlkTom wrote:Last I checked, Lascannons are pretty damn popular heavy weapon choices. So whatever meta you play in that doesn't do 'Las and Plas', consider yourself lucky. You will indeed ruin their day.

Now, on a serious note... 30 cultisits? Zerkers are dogs? Filling a LR with power armor isn't more resilient than naked cultisits? Hate to break it to ya, but if that Lascannon that no one is using pens you, your LR is blowing up 33% of the time, hitting each bum (and your bikers sucking on the exhaust pipe) with Str 4 wounds. Man... hate to see your face when your own LRs kill a bunch of your bikers where they explode because you roll bad, but I am sure that will never happen.

Put CC CSMs in your LRs... make them 10 man squads with 2 melta guns, MoK, VotLW, extra CC weapon (or replace the bolters), and a IoV (215pts replacing the bolters, btw) and you have something people might actually respect and will survive if/when your LR gets popped. Will actually make those Dirge Casters worthwhile to boot. What do you ditch to get this? Up to you...

Defiler is a dog due to the battle cannon. If you could ditch it and replace it with something better... or anything, would be worth it. But your kinda paying points for it and your stuck with it. Why it is really not worth it anymore.

When did I say my meta doesn't run las or plas? OK first plasma is useless against my list so its funny you mention it, second run the numbers on las canons against AV14, it's actually funny how bad they are for their cost, it takes 9 bs4 las canons to get one pen: 9*2/3*1/6=1 thats not a good answer to LR, btw it hen is 1/3 to wreck meaning it actually takes 27 lascaon shots to guarantee a wrecked LR. in 1850 how many armies pack 9 las canons beside triple detta guard? Which btw in that particular case I dare you to make TAC army that can handle guard with this codex anyway.

Jasper wrote:I like the LR wall idea but would find it unnatural to hold back the bikes.

The first tactic isn't a go-er with the current list. If the landraiders don't hold a threatening unit and hold back they will be ignored. The first tactic could be better if you traded the landraiders in for a havoc units with dedicated transport rhinos; or a havoc and a chosen with plasma weapons. Deploy the rhinos in cover (equiped with havoc launchers) or out of sight and deploy the cultist objective grabbers next to them and move them in in the first turn. Any spare points fill up the HW spot with a lascannon pred and then start taking helbrutes. Yes helbrutes! Get the HW you are facing shooting the -in cover- helbrutes, pred and havocs and not the bikes.

If you keep the current list I think you'll need to run the second tactic with the landraiders going forwards and shielding the bikes for the first turn. The defiler is interesting, he could be ditched to pay for a maulerfiend and buffing one of the culist units in the LR to a space marine unit. The maulerfiend will take a bit of the heat off the bikes (if they are in LOS) and help with the assault.

The only problem I can see with the second list is if the enemy can get around the sides of the landraider to start targetting the bikes with small shooty units (too small for a combat monster blob to take out) - I'm thinking deff coptas, infiltrators, other bikes. But I suppose that's only one turn of a bit of shootyness before the bikes are unleashed.

I agree with the bikes, I really wanted to field my converted bikes and duo lords though, I thought of scrapping the second lord and defiler for a flying demon prince to add forward target saturation and honestly its looking like the best fix.

As for ignoring LR, I just don't know why people hate on this tank as a back field pill box so often. For 3 obliteraters with VoTLW and MoN which are popular its 236 as opposed to the LR which is 230. The oblits have, none TL las canons, every other turn, so every two turns they get two hits. The LR almost always gets two hits EVERY turn. It is immune to small arms fire as well as poison, S7 and below and even S8 will struggle. Really the only threat to them is close range melta and MC, which annihilate the oblits as well. Now Oblits can DS, but generally that just makes then the most expensive termiced unit ever, so why not use termiced? OK so the other reason is their ability to dump more shots out at mid range but as back field support the LR always will beat Oblits IMO, oh and it can keep my cultists safe all game.

As for havocs in a rhino, first off, if kept in the rhino they only yield two shots a turn out the hatch, so they are bogus. If they deploy on the field and give their ride up to cultists all I have really accomplished is giving away a cultist unit to an easy explosion. If you all think these las canons are going to ruin my LR why would putting cultists in AV11 ever be an option? I actually like the mauler fiend, but again I have a converted defiler who wields a chain ax and is biped to look like a huge beserker, I would love to field him but the battle canon and arm auto canon makes it a tough sell as a mauler fiend



@Thread, I often come across sore or blunt on here but I appreciate the responses I have gotten and am building a varient with some of the tweaks you all gave, though the LR are staying as well as their cultist contents, you have to try something new to see if it works or not. I genuinely have not seen it done and I beg you to think back and actually recall seeing something like this tried. There really isn't much that can handle 2 LR in 6th from what I have seen. I do know there are a couple old 5th builds that will hurt. But I know that my guard now pack mostly plasma and flamers as well as my stern guard. SO we will see I suppose. I'll be posting what happens to my LR here on Sunday so you will know if I get mauled or not lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Revised list:

Lord, MoK, Jugger, AoBF, MB, SoC, VoTLW

Demon Prince, MoT, PA, Wings, Black Mace

6 Bikes, MoK, 2 plasma g., PF, PP

Land Raider

Land Raider, DC

HD

HD

mauler fiend- lasher T

10 cultists

10 cultists

10 cultists

1747

 Red Corsair wrote:
Ok here it is, its designed to be, well, killy and resilient. Let me know what you think.

Lord, MoK, Jugger, AoBF, MB, SoC, VoTLW

Lord, MoK Jugger, LC, PF, SoC, VoTLW

7 Bikes, MoK, 2 plasma g., PF, PP

Land Raider, DC

Land Raider, DC

HD

HD

Defiler

10 cultists

10 cultists

10 cultists

1749

I've tried running the double land raider with cultists and did not have much success. I found the problem was that if I wanted to use the land raiders as a screen for the bikers and my other scary assault units, I have to get the land raiders closer to the enemy. Then they can be hit with melta or smash attacks.

I found that the heavy lifting was done by the heldrakes and that 90 points of plague bearers did a much better job surviving shooting on objectives than cultists in the land raiders. I think that's the best min-max troop choice to take if you're trying to bring as much choppy death to your enemies in a chaos list. That requires to take a daemon hq too, but there pretty cheap options there. Plus, taking a blood thrister is a much better option than a daemon prince. Or if you take a chaos daemon prince as an HQ and load him up with psychic powers, he doesn't have to waste powers rolling on the crappy chaos marine chart for his corresponding mark.

Of course if you've found a way to make the bikers and land raiders work together, more power to you. To me, they just seem like miss matched units. The raiders want to stay back, the bikers want to come forward. So I don't see it as a cohesive pairing.

I just posted a revised build, please check it out

 Red Corsair wrote:
I just posted a revised build, please check it out

I like the Maulerfiend. I think he's a good pairing with the bikers and the daemon prince.

I would also recommend dropping the mark of khorne from the bikers. They are just ablative wounds for the lord with the axe, no point in making them more expensive. I'd also give the champion a melta bomb. You're going to be pretty pumped when you run into a bastion or other land raiders that you spent 5 points for when your lord's bomb whiffs, doesn't pen, or doesn't blow up the target.

I already covered the fact that I would take a Thirster over a Daemon Prince. T6 +1W is worth it. Plus, with a gift you can luck into an extra wound and it will not die or the godly 4+ FNP.

I like the fact that now you can send 3 tough killy units forward together while the land raiders hang back. But, I think that plague bearers are still the better option. Then without having to bother with land raiders you can take some deep striking obliterators to open up transports and armor. Or other things that further compliment your super rush forward. The deep strike ability of the plague bearers also allows you to spread out and get to any objective on the board.

Ditch Land Raiders and max out cultists squads. If you want to take them you need loads or it just won't work. Any army in the game will walk all over 30 cultists. 105 cultists however...

 Satan's Little Helper wrote:
Ditch Land Raiders and max out cultists squads. If you want to take them you need loads or it just won't work. Any army in the game will walk all over 30 cultists. 105 cultists however...

I think the current setup is meant to prevent Red Corsair from spending 390 points on useless troops. It gives him lascannons that are hard to put out of commission while giving protection to his minimal troop squad.

Taking that many cultists detracts from their excellent ability to be cheap. Plus you have to set-up and move all those models, let alone paint them.

bogalubov wrote:

 Satan's Little Helper wrote:
Ditch Land Raiders and max out cultists squads. If you want to take them you need loads or it just won't work. Any army in the game will walk all over 30 cultists. 105 cultists however...

I think the current setup is meant to prevent Red Corsair from spending 390 points on useless troops. It gives him lascannons that are hard to put out of commission while giving protection to his minimal troop squad.

Taking that many cultists detracts from their excellent ability to be cheap. Plus you have to set-up and move all those models, let alone paint them.

Thank you, finally someone at least understands the concept of the list. I am not looking for ditch the LR responses, the LR are resilient fire support and troop protection. I own 40 cultists and I already am losing interest in painting them, I will never own 105...

Satan's Little Helper wrote:Ditch Land Raiders and max out cultists squads. If you want to take them you need loads or it just won't work. Any army in the game will walk all over 30 cultists. 105 cultists however...

Why do I get the feeling you haven't read any of the previous posts.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think the revised list IS in fact much better though. I will have the lord, bikes, DP and mauler fiend as forward threats plus the HD'd on turn 2 if all goes well. If they don't arrive then I will assault and the LR are resilient enough to weather the storm from the rest of their army.

Can't wait to play and post the results to you guys. It's a forge world heavy environment as well so it will be interesting.

Maybe minor alteration. If you dump the mark of khorne from the bikers you can jam a havoc launcher on one of the land raiders. A little more twin-linked dakka never hurt.

bogalubov wrote:
Maybe minor alteration. If you dump the mark of khorne from the bikers you can jam a havoc launcher on one of the land raiders. A little more twin-linked dakka never hurt.

Hmmm good point, may consider it, if I drop another bike then with the 3 im under I can give it to both and keep the mark.... Very temtping, this makes the LR much better at infantry.

Seriously, your advice to add offense is to drop cheap troops, to pay a premium for 5-10 none ATSKNF marines with a flamer which by the way I also need to drop a lord or a helldrake to afford? Sorry but 160 for a few flame templates isn't a good solution, I just end up with a confused unit, does it rush forward to burn things or does it use the twin linked weapons on the tank? Again, IMO cultists are the best filler for land raiders because they have no power of the machine spirit, making chaos LR less mobile.

What I was trying to point out was 460 points for 4 TL Lascannons is a steep price to pay. So you have two heldrakes and an awesome bike unit... the point is I will ignore the paltry damage your two landraiders will do until I have dealt with the other threat. Or, if I have some deepstrike goodness like drop pod meltas or termicide I will pop your landraiders quickly... If you can't tell, I strongly believe your list is flawed. When you barely have 10% of your points in troops, the enemy will either focus fire to destroy them - no objective holding for you - or they will ignore them if they stay inside their pillboxes.

I think 2 heldrakes are an absolute pain but a single bike unit with 30% of your points in it is not going to survive 100% of my fire for up to two turns before the heldrakes show up.

So are you going to hide your bikes for two turns behind the landraiders until the drakes show up? Two turns gives an opponent a good chance to close with you and now your landraiders ARE dead.

For a comparison, what do you do when I take two 7 man havocs with 4 autocannons and 1 ADL with quadgun...382 points for 20 S7 shots... If I just unload them into your bikes for two turns, I am going to probably cause at least 12 saves... 4 dead bikes per turn!!! That is with a little over 20% of my points. Same units against your two heldrakes and we are talking around 6 S7 hits per turn not too healthy for them either...

Well to start I have improved my list I think, yet your still analyzing the previous version. I have heard your opinion on the LR and I don't agree with it.

All you have done is provide dated hypothetical scenarios with extreme hyperbole. Most termicide is plasma and flamer now, not melta. Also, a strong DP list is going to cause heavy turn one loses no matter who they face, if they didn't why would anyone play them?

It is also completely ludicrous to suggest that riding my bikes behind a land raider is a stupid idea when you have 20 s7 shots. Its actually smart and shuts you down entirely. Now your almost 400 points and 2 HS slots are useless and on my turn two I will multi assault them or burn them out, or heck how about both if I want to. You seriously miss the point of the list. When volume fire like your example is so popular then the answer is providing targets that they cannot hurt. Against HD those auto canons are awful, you have one quad gun with interceptor, the rest just burn, try again.

Finally I think you are taking my response a bit to heart. I understand you want to take 460 points and make it 880 with flamer squads inside, I didn't see this as an improvement and I still don't. I also can't stand when people list examples of what will counter a unit and completely ignore all the common elements in lists that cannot hurt a unit. If you don't believe me look at some of the other lists on this forum and you will notice a huge lack of anti LR units.

Ok here it is, its designed to be, well, killy and resilient. Let me know what you think.

I have let you know what I think. I hope without any vitriol or derision just cold hard logic.

Now you think you have the answer and that there are no problems. Fine.

I apologize I took your invite to "Let me know what you think." Literally. Apparently you don't want any constructive criticism so be it.

Best of luck and I wish you nothing but success.

DAaddict wrote:
Ok here it is, its designed to be, well, killy and resilient. Let me know what you think.

I have let you know what I think. I hope without any vitriol or derision just cold hard logic.

Now you think you have the answer and that there are no problems. Fine.

I apologize I took your invite to "Let me know what you think." Literally. Apparently you don't want any constructive criticism so be it.

Best of luck and I wish you nothing but success.

Thanks, I appreciate the criticism and it weighed in on my decision to alter the list. I just didn't/don't agree with the analysis you gave on cultists riding in LR's but I did agree that I didnt have enough support early for the bikes/lord. I think now that I have more forward pressure I will do much better. Again sorry if I offended you, I just would rather have a healthy discussion on list theory rather then just altering everything including the foundation with out really vetting it. I still have not been given any solid reason why LR's are bad in 6th, and I think chaos troops are their weakest link so I'd rather keep them cheap and use some strong offense to keep them safe.

Back in fifth I tried to field 6 landraiders with 3 squads of 3 termi, and 5 kb or csm. I borrowed 5 lr for a game only to learn that everything had melta or dark lances.

I like your list and I might try it if I ever get a second lr and hd. I would use spawns only because I think they can get into assault better than plasma bikers unless they can rapid fire and charge.

I wonder how well necron would handle your list.

I have already made a false gunline/speedy list where no one would bother wasting their time to critique bcuz of how dumb it is. And I think it just happens to have an edge over yours but I think your list has better consistancy and can take on all comers much better.

Abaddon, 6 termi, hf, combi meltas
(7 chosen, 4 flamers, lascannon, rhino, hml) 6 squads



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I belive the standard csm enemy will be using plague marines with meltaguns in rhinos most often.

Meltas take care of your lr if you ever let them get close, plague knives take down your mc or high toughness, fnp helps against your ap3.

After that its hd vs hd. Having more hac will win dog fight or if opponents are also packing ac.

I am trying to look at it from popular csm army builds