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@TalonZahn: I agree with that 100%, actually. I'm okay with the goal, but definitely not satisfied by it. I think adding a 1 or 2 gnerls into the blitzkrieg level would be better for driving backers, period. I'm maintaining my simple $70 EB box game pledge because, for me, I don't see the need to get the battlecry level. It has more of the same I'm already getting and I feel can get more for my money by spending the extra $70 I save on add-ons I'm NOT getting. If they were to toss in 3-4 things that are add-on only right now? I'd definitely want to move up.

I'm fairly certain that with the advent of a lot of Kickstarters over-promising and under-delivering, what we're seeing is a new type of Kickstarter - one run by veterans who are now properly calculating costs associated with every stretch goal. 30k to tool a larger sprue, or to add another sprue, now giving an unknown number of backers who will select that add-on, seems to be more of a correct business move to make sure they don't lose their shirts on the set. Especially if they are trying to factor in the economy of scale - how many will be ordering it, how much is tooling, how much is production, etc. I personally don't mind not ridiculous over-promising if it means I will actually get a quality product.

I do, however, agree, in that they should have at least 2 goals posted in order to drive interest. But I believe they might actually want to keep a steady pace so they don't wind up in the situation where so much stuff is given away to so many thousands of backers that they start losing money on it.

 recruittons wrote:
@TalonZahn: I agree with that 100%, actually. I'm okay with the goal, but definitely not satisfied by it. I think adding a 1 or 2 gnerls into the blitzkrieg level would be better for driving backers, period. I'm maintaining my simple $70 EB box game pledge because, for me, I don't see the need to get the battlecry level. It has more of the same I'm already getting and I feel can get more for my money by spending the extra $70 I save on add-ons I'm NOT getting. If they were to toss in 3-4 things that are add-on only right now? I'd definitely want to move up.

Exactly.

Thank you.



[Edit] @ Judge - Before I go to bed...

I do agree with that statement. However, they should be able to look at numbers and say "It will cost X to produce Y amount." Then decide we can put Y amount in the boxed set providing we make X. So our next stretch goal will be as close as we are comfortable to that X amount."

If they make too many, leftovers can go on the shelf. If the cut it too close and lose some money, well we already funded the most expensive part and everything from there on is gravy.

TalonZahn wrote:
I tried pounding this across in the comments section and, well... it's the internet right?

Stretches like this add value for some, but not for all. If they want to keep their pace, they need to appeal to new backers via overall value as well as current backers to give more.

The problem is that there are people who just post that the goal sucks when it doesn't. It adds 50% more value to a specific add-on and that benefits people who want the gnerl for variety as well as people who were on the fence. I mean.. seriously... people are getting the option to buy a model roughly the size of an elder jetbike for $6.77.. that's not a bad deal if you're interested in it (I'm not personally). There is a difference between something being good for a minority only and being bad but too many things in a row that only benefit a minority of pledgers or provide no real value benefit can indeed be a bad thing. I think the next goal IMO will determine if that's going to be the case here.

 warboss wrote:

TalonZahn wrote:
I tried pounding this across in the comments section and, well... it's the internet right?

Stretches like this add value for some, but not for all. If they want to keep their pace, they need to appeal to new backers via overall value as well as current backers to give more.

The problem is that there are people who just post that the goal sucks when it doesn't. It adds 50% more value to a specific add-on and that benefits people who want the gnerl for variety as well as people who were on the fence. I mean.. seriously... people are getting the option to buy a model roughly the size of an elder jetbike for $6.77.. that's not a bad deal if you're interested in it (I'm not personally). There is a difference between something being good for a minority only and being bad but too many things in a row that only benefit a minority of pledgers or provide no real value benefit can indeed be a bad thing. I think the next goal IMO will determine if that's going to be the case here.

I don't think there is really much of a threat at all to them not getting enough from current backers...the key is always getting new backers with these things, and for that - turning 2 miniatures into 3 works...as does simply chugging along at a steady rate and making sure updates happen on a regular basis to get spammed across the internet.

If you look at past KS campaigns, average pledge levels tend to be around the $150-200 mark for big miniature campaigns. Currently the average pledge level for this campaign is $175 or so, which puts them right in the pocket. Considering how much time there is left to add more stuff, I do not doubt that this campaign will actually be on the higher side of that when it is done. However, getting 1 person to increase their pledge by $20 or $40 as opposed to getting one person to decide to back the campaign - the one new person is several times more valuable than the increase by the person who is already backing the campaign. Not only do you get a larger chunk of money from that new person - you also get a new foot soldier to tell their friends about the campaign and move it forward.

The campaign itself is well ahead of Zombicide, Sedition Wars, Bones, KoW... If you look at their charts on KS and then compare this one - the current trend is in fact favorable. Even with campaigns that started out with a bigger jump, like Zombicide 2 - those campaigns were on a downward slide at this point while this is still maintaining steady growth. The growth is in fact so favorable that I would be willing to bet that the final total for this campaign will be higher than all 6 previous CMoN campaigns combined.

Not possible, I'm afraid Sean. Zombicide season 2 finished at over $2.1 Million on it's own, never mind the other 5. Calculating the rise per day, it's likely that this will end up in the same ballpark as that - IF it keeps going as it has, which is not as likely.

Admittedly, that is still an AMAZING showing for a first-off, but no where near beating a combined total for the previous 6 CMoN campaigns.

Unfortunately, I am one of the backers who will not be contributing nearly as much to this campaign. I have some interest in rekindling my love of Robotech, less so for Palladium. I am also more of a modeller than a candidate for playing this game, and therefore I am only pledging for the KS exclusive models. If I hear good things about the game after it has been released in Britain, I may well get into it - or at least pick up a VF set and a MAC II.

I'm just hoping after the fighters something exciting is added, free or add-on I don't care. Preferably more Zentradi units. It'd be nice to see the next two stretch goals instead of just the next one.

TalonZahn wrote:

I do agree with that statement. However, they should be able to look at numbers and say "It will cost X to produce Y amount." Then decide we can put Y amount in the boxed set providing we make X. So our next stretch goal will be as close as we are comfortable to that X amount."

If they make too many, leftovers can go on the shelf. If the cut it too close and lose some money, well we already funded the most expensive part and everything from there on is gravy.

Yeah, but how much is Y amount? It adds and grows each day. I can imagine running a KS is a huge headache when it comes to the numbers game as they have to figure out production runs and costs associated with initial run (including tooling) and second runs, and such. The wider, and not as flamboyant, stretch goals seems less likely to be just "stingy" but more likely to be "this number makes us feel comfortable in being able to actually afford to produce this and send it to peeps".

And we've got like 25 days left and the $140 level is already a great deal. I would be happy if it ended right now (as long as they had plans to release the power armors in the future )

 judgedoug wrote:

And we've got like 25 days left and the $140 level is already a great deal. I would be happy if it ended right now (as long as they had plans to release the power armors in the future )

Agreed, if I had to choose between waiting and getting for potential freebies or getting whats out now at Showdown and forego any future minis I'd be more than happy to get what I'm getting now.

I don't get what people are complaining about. I think this is a great stretch goal. A pack of two Gnerls seemed dumb to me so I suspected it would change. It's good to see that it actually has -- makes me feel a lot better about the add-on.

It's a cool little bonus, I've just never been a fan of the Gnerls.

Honestly, I think it's just a numbers thing.

They doubled the Destroids from 2 to 4, so increasing the Gnerls from 2 to 3 is less impressive. Even if there are really good reasons for this being the case (bigger/heavier/more complicated model, potential molding issues, an expectation that it won't move all that many units, etc).

And comes on the tail end of a BIG push to get the MAC II (paid only) and a dice upgrade (expected as it was, I doubt many people were going to be excited about that).

The teaser at the half way point is a nice bone to throw to people, but I do wish they'd just flat out have the next two goals lined up clearly.

@ judge, mostly... lol - The honest truth about the "Y Amount" is that the number is immaterial. This game is going to shelf, so they don't need to guess that number for just the KS. It's for the production run they would make normally, then allocate some to the KS. These are core units for the game, not one-offs, limited time only, etc. Even if they were, there will always be an avenue to sell those, because... limited edition.

Anyway, I was looking over the boxes and I decided to throw some numbers around and I guess the reason the $140 level isn't that impressive to me so far, is that it's only got what amounts to about $40 over the $80 box + a couple add-ons. I can buy what they are putting in the $140 box already, so technically I'm not being given anything extra. The only items that seperate it are the Roy fig, the "special valk" (which amounts to 1 extra head option), and the art. Everything else can be bought, which brings it up to..... around $140.

I wonder if this is why we haven't seen any pledge level comparisons that are often seen in other Kickstarters.

Once again, to be clear, I'm dumping wads of cash on it already. I'm a fan of many of the things going on, coming out, etc., and so on.

However, from the view of a passerby, hesitant backer, or friend that needs convincing... I just don't think Palladium are selling themselves as well as they could/should be or perhaps drawing in backers with that "Sweet deal" that everyone is looking for in a KS.

This might change, who knows.

@Talon, mainly I was referring to the add-ons and the bonus figs. Sure, the box will be made, and contain the normal components. But the mathlete number-crunching has gotta come from the new units and the freebies.

I too am dumping in a truckload of cash. I've been waiting for this since I was a kid. Those figs could be 10 bucks apiece with no box set and no deals and I would still buy 50 of them.

 judgedoug wrote:
I too am dumping in a truckload of cash. I've been waiting for this since I was a kid. Those figs could be 10 bucks apiece with no box set and no deals and I would still buy 50 of them.

My friend, this is the sad and disgusting truth.

TalonZahn wrote:
Anyway, I was looking over the boxes and I decided to throw some numbers around and I guess the reason the $140 level isn't that impressive to me so far, is that it's only got what amounts to about $40 over the $80 box + a couple add-ons. I can buy what they are putting in the $140 box already, so technically I'm not being given anything extra. The only items that seperate it are the Roy fig, the "special valk" (which amounts to 1 extra head option), and the art. Everything else can be bought, which brings it up to..... around $140.

Now that we have the listed "value" of the dice, my little personal count of the relative values of the two core sets versus battlecry (once they're equaled out to the same contents as much as possible) will be equal with one more $20-25 freebie at the battlecry level (assuming that you think VF-1S bits and an art print = a rulebook). I strongly considered getting the $70 early bird as I don't expect to need much more basic valks and pods and would rather spend the difference on getting models that increase the variety instead.. but the KS has been doing a good enough job with that so far with several more weeks to go. $70 core + Rick/Roy $30 + MAC II $40 is what would be my current must buy with female power armor and artillery pod upgrades sprues/kits being the future ones I expect. If I can get some of the latter as freebies (likely with the artillery pods but unlikely with the power armor), I might stay at the blitzkrieg level. All in all since I don't know anyone else locally who is getting this game, I don't want to invest more than $200 total in it. If I can get the models I want with Blitzkrieg and still stay under $200, I'll stick with it. Otherwise, I'll drop down to $70 and buy the variety of kits that I want and save a few bucks (at the obvious expense of basic units like an extra squadron of VF-1As and standard battlepods). Either way, I likely won't be able to make that decision until May 20th if the incredible last day skyrocketing of the myth kickstarter I was watching is any indication.

TalonZahn wrote:

However, from the view of a passerby, hesitant backer, or friend that needs convincing... I just don't think Palladium are selling themselves as well as they could/should be or perhaps drawing in backers with that "Sweet deal" that everyone is looking for in a KS.

Selling themselves well isn't a strength of Palladium. Putting their foot in their corporate mouth and putting themselves at odds with their fans and former contributors tends to be though. Hopefully, they'll buck the trend with this kickstarter or at least mostly keep quiet. Ninja seems to be doing most of the talking which is probably a good thing.

TalonZahn wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
I too am dumping in a truckload of cash. I've been waiting for this since I was a kid. Those figs could be 10 bucks apiece with no box set and no deals and I would still buy 50 of them.

My friend, this is the sad and disgusting truth.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for lots of deals! I *NEED* these to live. haha

 Barzam wrote:
You do know that Harmony Gold cannot get the license for Macross' sequel series, right? Big West/Tatsunoko refuse to allow them access to it and for good reason. Macross is a separate entitiy from Robotech, so you will never see VF-0s, SV-51s, VF-17s, VF-25s, etc. in Robotech. That being said, I'm surprised HG has basically done nothing to expand Robotech themselves. Best we got was Shadow Chronicles and an incomplete and generally reviled Sentinels.

For your and everyone's information, Robotech originated from Macross. Without the initial Macross series from Japan, there won't be any Robotech. Because the original series was not long enough, two completely separate series were added to make it into Robotech. Harmony Gold did absolutely nothing to expand the the series and refused to give away the right for the unseeen series for Battletech fans. With such a track record, people are pulling money into it? What for?

wildger wrote:
With such a track record, people are pulling money into it? What for?

For cool, affordable plastic models from a beloved franchise.

wildger wrote:

 Barzam wrote:
You do know that Harmony Gold cannot get the license for Macross' sequel series, right? Big West/Tatsunoko refuse to allow them access to it and for good reason. Macross is a separate entitiy from Robotech, so you will never see VF-0s, SV-51s, VF-17s, VF-25s, etc. in Robotech. That being said, I'm surprised HG has basically done nothing to expand Robotech themselves. Best we got was Shadow Chronicles and an incomplete and generally reviled Sentinels.

For your and everyone's information, Robotech originated from Macross. Without the initial Macross series from Japan, there won't be any Robotech. Because the original series was not long enough, two completely separate series were added to make it into Robotech. Harmony Gold did absolutely nothing to expand the the series and refused to give away the right for the unseeen series for Battletech fans. With such a track record, people are pulling money into it? What for?

Because I think the Macross series, overall, has been inferior and progressively getting worse.
Because I think the Robotech storyline, overall, is better.
Because I want to have Zentraedi fighting Invid.

 judgedoug wrote:
Because I want to have Zentraedi fighting Invid.

Needed to highlight that a little more...

 Manchu wrote:

wildger wrote:
With such a track record, people are pulling money into it? What for?

For cool, affordable plastic models from a beloved franchise.

Indeed. My motivations are similar now to what they were back in 1986... I simply want the toys. I've bought more Robotech toys in my late 20's/early 30's than I did in the 80's. Hell, I bought a half dozen full size mattel battlepods and knock off 1/60 veritechs to do a mega scale Robotech floor game at GenCon after I saw people doing the same with battletech. Unfortunately, life and moving across the country got in the way of my yearly pilgrimage to the convention and running the game.

 judgedoug wrote:

Because I want to have Zentraedi fighting Invid.

Now THAT gets right to the heart of the matter.

I also know of Macross only fans who are also getting into the KS to get, well, Macross models.

 judgedoug wrote:

Because I want to have Zentraedi fighting Invid.

I think you meant, I want to have a Logan hovertank core a Shock Trooper and a Battler Cyclone goes nuts on a Female Zentradi armor while a VF-1A takes a Bioroid to town, right?

Mummm.... VR-41 Cyclone....

 IceRaptor wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

Because I want to have Zentraedi fighting Invid.

I think you meant, I want to have a Logan hovertank core a Shock Trooper and a Battler Cyclone goes nuts on a Female Zentradi armor while a VF-1A takes a Bioroid to town, right?

Mummm.... VR-41 Cyclone....

One of my favorite scenes in all of Robotech is during Robotech II, when the little baby Invid Cougar Inorganics pounce on Bioroids (and the pilot whines "eeaauugghh"). I hope hopehope please pleaseplease that they make the Inorganics. I _love_ those designs.

I'm also in the super minority in that I love the Southern Cross mecha as well. I can't wait to have Logans and Hovertanks zipping around blasting Bioroids on sleds.

I stopped watching halfway through southern cross. I love the hovertanks. They NEED to make them,

Some of the best episodes of Robotech are the last half dozen or so episodes of Southern Cross. Awesome space combat, awesome ground combat, so great!

 judgedoug wrote:

wildger wrote:

Because I think the Macross series, overall, has been inferior and progressively getting worse.
Because I think the Robotech storyline, overall, is better.

May be you can tell us how the Robotech storyline is getting better. Other than Shadow Chronicles as a sequel, I am not aware of anything out in the market. That series is OK.
Macross, on the other hand, has II, Plus, 7, Zero, and Frontier.

The zero and Frontier are better than the previous series. I don't see how you feel that it is getting worse.

wildger wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

Because I think the Macross series, overall, has been inferior and progressively getting worse.
Because I think the Robotech storyline, overall, is better.

May be you can tell us how the Robotech storyline is getting better. Other than Shadow Chronicles as a sequel, I am not aware of anything out in the market. That series is OK.
Macross, on the other hand, has II, Plus, 7, Zero, and Frontier.

The zero and Frontier are better than the previous series. I don't see how you feel that it is getting worse.

I didn't say that the Robotech storyline is getting better. I said overall, it is better.

As for the Macross storyline, I think the original series is just fine, I think Plus is great, I thought 7 was a horrible waste of my life (but I managed to get through it), Zero was alright, and Frontier wouldn't have been successful at all if it didn't have the "Macross" name in front of it. Frontier is a generibad anime and after watching it, I came to realize that the people in charge of the property literally have no idea what they're doing, and Macross has just turned into a cash cow for them where they can just borrow a generic terrible anime script, slap "Macross" in front of it, put a transforming plane in it, and watch the money roll in.

I have had the rare fortune of seeing Robotech, every Macross series, most of the original Super Dimension Cavalary Southern Cross and all of Genesis Climber Mospeada... and I like Robotech the best.

Now, Macross Ai Oboete Imasuka and Flashback 2012 are different... those are amazing... and Ai Oboete Imasuka is in my top films of all time. I love that movie.