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 Talizvar wrote:
I am bracing for an Easter 2014 gift for myself due to the huge success of the kickstarter (expecting bit more than they could chew). It is a challenge. I like it when I am wrong. Valentines gift if they run to typical schedules. Christmas as planned if Kevin has kicked the monkey off his back.

I too am keeping a fairly restrained view on when we'll actually be getting our stuff, and for that reason, Kevin's 'murmur' from the 21st contained some (presumably) unintentional hilarity:

With any luck, we’ll have Kickstarter materials shipping to you by October or November (no promises) and the retail product hitting store shelves by November or December. We do not have a release schedule yet, but I’ll let you know when we do; probably in a few weeks.

Look, guys, I get you're enthusiastic and optimistic about the project, but according to the timeline we were given by ND weeks ago, production was set to start in early July. We had what felt (as someone with heavily incomplete information, of course) as a reasonable target date: December.

I have simply no idea why they'd undercut that by several months literally the day after the campaign ended.

If we DO get our figures in Oct or Nov, that would be awesome. But I feel it's an unnecessary risk to build up peoples hopes and expectations. If they pull it off, great, but now even if the figures start showing up in Dec or Jan (which would've been 'on schedule'), but given their reputation for delays, surely it's unwise to tempt fate like that.

Personally I would've stuck to the Dec target at least until production was underway, and maybe save the 'it might come early' line for Gencon. "Did we say December? We meant November. You're welcome."

 Forar wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
I am bracing for an Easter 2014 gift for myself due to the huge success of the kickstarter (expecting bit more than they could chew). It is a challenge. I like it when I am wrong. Valentines gift if they run to typical schedules. Christmas as planned if Kevin has kicked the monkey off his back.

With any luck, we’ll have Kickstarter materials shipping to you by October or November (no promises) and the retail product hitting store shelves by November or December. We do not have a release schedule yet, but I’ll let you know when we do; probably in a few weeks.

**snip**
Personally I would've stuck to the Dec target at least until production was underway, and maybe save the 'it might come early' line for Gencon. "Did we say December? We meant November. You're welcome."

What would be the worst case here? A broken contract where they get to hold our money a few more months without material goods to show for it (we have lost use of our liquid assets during that time) but at least what we want is being made. In the future we understand not to follow their schedule.

If it all works out expectations are exceeded and win-win for everyone.

Place your bets.

Can't bet, I spent all my cash on RRT minis lol

 Talizvar wrote:
What would be the worst case here? A broken contract where they get to hold our money a few more months without material goods to show for it (we have lost use of our liquid assets during that time) but at least what we want is being made. In the future we understand not to follow their schedule.

If it all works out expectations are exceeded and win-win for everyone.

I don't know if you're aware of this, but Palladium has a reputation for long delays, and promising products that are 'on the verge of release', but don't materialize for years and years. Hell, they have two other crowd funded books (Northern Gun 1 and 2) that are still outstanding, long after their expected release dates. It's... a bit of a sore spot even for some Palladium die hards.

Setting a date (as they did, December) and meeting it or releasing early might help improve that reputation, even if Ninja Division is doing most of the heavy lifting on that. Speculating, literally a day after the campaign ended, that they might deliver two to three months early raises expectations that they will deliver on that.

Look at it this way; if they left it at Dec, and deliver in Dec or even Jan, few would have cause for complaint. Hell, I would've been pleasantly surprised at that point. Now, they've set expectations to a degree where they have to exceed their initial projections just to break even, have almost no chance to exceed those expectations, and will even be perceived by some to have fallen short just for delivering 'on time'.

And while I agree that whether we get our boxes in Oct or Dec or next April is small scale in the grand scheme of things, keep in mind that Palladium seems to be hoping this is a hit. There are two more series to produce figures for, and notes that they'd love to a Rifts Tactics minis game as well. Obviously this isn't just a side project, they're hoping to diversify into a whole new game genre. It isn't just whether or not the backers are happy or not (though happy backers are probably a good thing if they're hoping we buy into more figures with this era and the later ones), but keeping the community interested, positive and enthusiastic. "oops, did we say November? We meant February" could prove detrimental to that goal.

 Forar wrote:

I don't know if you're aware of this, but Palladium has a reputation for long delays, and promising products that are 'on the verge of release', but don't materialize for years and years. Hell, they have two other crowd funded books (Northern Gun 1 and 2) that are still outstanding, long after their expected release dates. It's... a bit of a sore spot even for some Palladium die hards.

Yep, aware of that crowd funded but at their own site not through Kickstarter. I think they know if they fail on this they are going to be sued and they would be pretty much done as a company.

Setting a date (as they did, December) and meeting it or releasing early might help improve that reputation, even if Ninja Division is doing most of the heavy lifting on that. Speculating, literally a day after the campaign ended, that they might deliver two to three months early raises expectations that they will deliver on that.

That is what I am hoping for: Ninja division doing the work and hopefully on the design end they do not get too much interference,... er, "feedback"

Look at it this way; if they left it at Dec, and deliver in Dec or even Jan, few would have cause for complaint. Hell, I would've been pleasantly surprised at that point. Now, they've set expectations to a degree where they have to exceed their initial projections just to break even, have almost no chance to exceed those expectations, and will even be perceived by some to have fallen short just for delivering 'on time'.

I really think these guys think way to hopefully without looking at the order of operations and possible timelines for each step and figuring it out. I honestly think it will be an Easter gift as I stated in another post...

And while I agree that whether we get our boxes in Oct or Dec or next April is small scale in the grand scheme of things, keep in mind that Palladium seems to be hoping this is a hit. There are two more series to produce figures for, and notes that they'd love to a Rifts Tactics minis game as well. Obviously this isn't just a side project, they're hoping to diversify into a whole new game genre. It isn't just whether or not the backers are happy or not (though happy backers are probably a good thing if they're hoping we buy into more figures with this era and the later ones), but keeping the community interested, positive and enthusiastic. "oops, did we say November? We meant February" could prove detrimental to that goal.

Detrimental would be mild, never trusted again and a "has-been" company springs more to mind. These guys have a great IP that they have developed but if Kevin does not get a bit more emphasis of meeting release dates AND meeting his standard of quality they very well could be doomed.

Sued? Why?
What basis would there be? Kickstarter isn't for preordering, it's for investing.

rigeld2 wrote:
Sued? Why?
What basis would there be? Kickstarter isn't for preordering, it's for investing.

Ack, no!
There are over 5000 people that spent an average of $260 who would not agree with your viewpoint.
Pre-ordering has always been a way for a company to get more money for development which is not far removed from this.

It is not "investing" where you buy shares and see their cost go up/down or get dividends and you own a piece of the company.

You give them money with the agreement that if the kickstarter is fully funded, they agree to make the product they were trying to get funded.
You select in their "incentives" some product (coupon, models, their first commercial product, etc.) and they agree to supply what was selected.

You CAN give away money (as little as a dollar) in the hopes they get to develop the product they propose.

Go read the kickstarter agreement, it is very clear these are not donations unless specifically stated (like the one dollar).
This is why a proposed delivery date is required so that people do not wait two years unless that was understood.
An Excel sheet is then sent to us to select what we want based on the money each "backer" put in.

There is mention of "buyer beware" and Palladium has some history of not delivering on what people paid them so discussing options if they fail is not all that off-base.

 judgedoug wrote:
Alaska Base Valkyrie http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=39189

That is gorgeous.

Don't forget that the Design an Ace contest ends this weekend so get your designs in for a free valkyrie prize!

rigeld2 wrote:
Sued? Why?
What basis would there be? Kickstarter isn't for preordering, it's for investing.

tell that to the guy who got sued into bankruptcy after he failed to deliver a KSed product on time

 warboss wrote:
Don't forget that the Design an Ace contest ends this weekend so get your designs in for a free valkyrie prize!

Whats this, how do I enter?

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Don't forget that the Design an Ace contest ends this weekend so get your designs in for a free valkyrie prize!

Whats this, how do I enter?

Basically, you come up with a squadron paint scheme and symbol and Palladium/Ninja picks their favorites to include in the upcoming rulebook. Winners get a painted valkyrie model in their paint scheme as a prize as well. Nifty contest indeed!

http://www.robotech.com/news/viewarticle.php?id=489

Sining wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Sued? Why?
What basis would there be? Kickstarter isn't for preordering, it's for investing.

tell that to the guy who got sued into bankruptcy after he failed to deliver a KSed product on time

http://www.inc.com/eric-markowitz/when-kickstarter-investors-want-their-money-back.html

I assume this is what you're referring to?

Which happened 2 years ago, and may have been part of the reason significant changes were made to Kickstarter's policies, including the requirement for a Risks & Challenges section, the inclusion of an estimated delivery date, updated language regarding who is responsible for what, etc.

Which isn't to say it can't happen again, but there's a difference between a 10k project that raises 36k and is run by someone who has no idea what they're doing, and a 1.4m project being run by people who have run successful campaigns before.

Overly optimistic comments from Kevin S aside, I'm bracing for delays personally. If we see it in January, awesome. December (on time)? Amazing. Anything earlier just racks up gold stars and praise, but until a couple of months have gone by and they've actually got some updates on production, I'm not holding my breath.

However, when you give Palladium and co. $1.4M well, you might expect...problems...?

So, Alph, out of curiosity... what was the main reason you pulled your pledge? Was it because of Palladium's history of screw ups? I've obviously been a supporter of the kickstarter because of my interest in Robotech but their history (along with a lack of local players) limited my pledge personally.

No, nothing like that!

I really don't have any history with Palladium products.

I pulled out because of a lack of available funds, with other Kickstarters taking the attention, and money, away!

Combined with the fact that, while I love Anime and Giant Robots, I never watched much Robotech at all.

Now, if this was Gaiking, or Getter Robo, or even better, Giant Robo?

I would ahve been in trouble... and in until the end!

 Alpharius wrote:
However, when you give Palladium and co. $1.4M well, you might expect...problems...?

I'm not quite sure what you're alluding to here?

They have a well earned reputation for delays, but hopefully ND's running the show on getting that to happen.

They raked in over 20 times their initial asking cash, so the sheer size/scope/scale of the project expanded dramatically, but hopefully some of that extra funding helps them to get sufficient support and make it happen.

Don't get me wrong, as I've stated all along, I'm no PB fanboy, just a fan with reservations, but I don't think it's fair to assume the absolute worst (omg they might not deliver and we all get screwed and they go bankrupt style) when a couple months of delays seem far more likely.

Shadowrun Returns garnered nearly 2m and had a projected delivery date of late last year, but it's (allegedly) coming out in June and I'm pretty happy.

As was discussed above, if anything, I take issue with them undercutting their own release date by 2-3 months literally a day after the campaign ended.

But then, we've known that Kevin needs to be muzzled and chained to his writing desk for decades now.

The trouble is if palladium takes the success of the kickstarter to mean not that the underlying IP has plenty of life but rather that they've been doing things right all along. I'm not assuming the worst but rather hoping that this is the opportunity that Palladium needs to turn over a new leaf. They've basically ignored robotech for the past couple of years (one book... that's it..) and ignored revising their rules for decades. I'm hoping (probably in vain to be honest) that the megasuccess of this kickstarter shows them that they're frankly wrong in most of their assumptions garnered from listening only to the ever shrinking super hard core fan pool on their forums.

In the end, if they return to their old ways after releasing macross as shown in the kickstarter, I won't shed any tears. Macross is definitely my favorite era and it'll finally have the minis it deserves... assuming they don't pull a "palladium" on us. If they do finally learn their lesson and see that there is a world of ex-fans out there that they could be earning income from and successfully come out with a quality Macross set relatively on time, I'm in for the freebie pledge of the next era Robotech kickstarter as well in addition to any possible Rifts minis kickstarter.

 Forar wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
However, when you give Palladium and co. $1.4M well, you might expect...problems...?

I'm not quite sure what you're alluding to here?

They have a well earned reputation for delays, but hopefully ND's running the show on getting that to happen.

They raked in over 20 times their initial asking cash, so the sheer size/scope/scale of the project expanded dramatically, but hopefully some of that extra funding helps them to get sufficient support and make it happen.

It looks like you figured out exactly what I was alluding to there!

Yay!

I think.

Given past experience with Kickstarters that end up grossly over-funded, I expect delays in receiving anything from this one. The vast number of extra model types I expect they are having to deal with much more work per person than they had initially anticipated, so I would rather this take mmore time than be done quickly and lose quality. The increased number of moulds mean it will take longer to make them, so either things will get released in 'waves', or it will all be delayed until everything is ready to go.

Personally, I'd rather the delay and I think the announcement of a reduced production time just after the end of the kickstarter is either complete bovine excrement, or an indication that they are concentrating on the base box set and will release that first, with special characters and paid add-ons coming much later - which stinks for me as I couldn't go in for a box set in the KS and just managed to scrape the KS exclusive characters.

Well, hopefully we'll see a survey and an update in the next week or two, and then we'll have a month with the pledge manager. The timeline on those two will at least give us an idea of when their starting point is. No way of knowing how long said factory will take to produce and ship all those figures, but it's a start.

From the Palladium website...

UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™

Our focus is split between finishing up Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and sending it in for manufacturing, and finishing Rifts® Northern Gun One™ and getting it to the printer. Both are coming along well.
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Kickstarter

Kickstarter supporters, it will take a little while for us to get the survey sent out to you. Shortly after we get the survey back from you, Palladium Books will set up the Online Pledge Manager, and you will get an invitation for it. This will be set up like a store, exclusive to Kickstarter Backers, in which you will indicate which add-on items you wanted, and you can even add to your pledge should you desire to do so.

Did your pledge not go through, but you want to participate? Fear not, we will work something out for you. Palladium has been contacted by a number of Kickstarter supporters whose pledges were not processed for one reason or another. If that includes you, please contact Palladium Books, give us your contact information, the amount you pledged for which level, and the add-ons you want, and we WILL make sure you ARE included in the Pledge Manager and receive everything you want.

Did you miss out completely and wish you could have participated? Keep your eyes on the Palladium Website and these Weekly Updates. We are looking into ways to allow you to participate for a limited time. No promises, but give us some time to see if we can get you included.

All of this should be in place by the end of June or sooner. Palladium’s whiz kid, Rex Barkdoll, is already on it and working on getting everything set up to process and prepare Kickstarter pledges.

Release date for the physical Kickstarter pledge items: Fall, probably November sometime, before product is shipped to distributors. Sooner if possible. The Palladium and Ninja Division crews are working away.

Since this thread is vast and sprawling I started a new thread for speculation about expansions (never too soon!)

Today is IIRC the cutoff for the funding via Kickstarter as pledgers have two weeks after the end to get their finances in order (besides the apparent back door into the kickstarter mentioned in my post above). I'm curious to see if they'll accept paypal during the pledge manager stage as I've had some money burning a hole in my paypal wallet for a while (and would have preferred to spend that rather than amazon payments).

Hopefully we'll have an official Kickstarter update tomorrow as well as word this week on the Design an Ace contest.

I just find it interesting that I have all my Kickstarter stuff in order for this. I have the confirmation emails, I have my Amazon account set-up properly and I have even tried to communicate with them asking why they didn't charge my account or why my pledge was skipped and I have not heard a response from them. Instead I get a note here on Dakka that they have a " Message on There Webpage" but we have to hunt it down instead of them come to each of us. It even says that they have been contacted by others like me and instead of getting back to us personally (if you pledge more than $140.00 you deserve a personal response) they hide a message on their website.
I'm wondering if I want to withhold all my pledge information at this point since they can't even seem to take money from people without problems how on earth are they going to be able to deliver a quality game product???

 dalsiandon wrote:
I'm wondering if I want to withhold all my pledge information at this point since they can't even seem to take money from people without problems how on earth are they going to be able to deliver a quality game product???

While I agree with your sentiment about maintaining contact, only you can decide whether withholding payment is the right choice. There is always an element of risk when dealing with Palladium and apparently Soda Pop (the last 3 crowdfunding efforts from the two of them combined are each 6+ months late). Palladium communicates quite well with the incredibly insular community of super die hard fans on their website that buy 3 copies of each book... but they're not so great with incorporating feedback or communicating with the wider more independent minded gaming community.

 dalsiandon wrote:
I just find it interesting that I have all my Kickstarter stuff in order for this. I have the confirmation emails, I have my Amazon account set-up properly and I have even tried to communicate with them asking why they didn't charge my account or why my pledge was skipped and I have not heard a response from them. Instead I get a note here on Dakka that they have a " Message on There Webpage" but we have to hunt it down instead of them come to each of us. It even says that they have been contacted by others like me and instead of getting back to us personally (if you pledge more than $140.00 you deserve a personal response) they hide a message on their website.
I'm wondering if I want to withhold all my pledge information at this point since they can't even seem to take money from people without problems how on earth are they going to be able to deliver a quality game product???

Kickstarter creators have no control over when or how often Amazon attempts to charge, yelling at them will do you no good. Contact Kickstarter/Amazon itself.

 warboss wrote:
Palladium communicates quite well with the incredibly insular community of super die hard fans on their website that buy 3 copies of each book...

I've been running into this more and more of late, and it continues to baffle me.

As I've mentioned a few times, I used to have almost everything they'd produced to date. It took up most of a good sized book shelf all on its own, and could've buckled a lesser shelving unit.

I simply cannot fathom how buying in duplicate or triplicate is a wise manner of spending ones disposable income. Sure, they're free to do it, but I'm not quite sure it should be lauded. A special edition/signed copy or two aside, how many copies of a book does one person need? Let alone an entire office dedicated to a massive set in triplicate. Like, I highly doubt even the signed ones are ever going to be hot commodities trading at an order of magnitude more than the regular books.

Almost has an unsettlingly cultish feel to it.

 Forar wrote:
Almost has an unsettlingly cultish feel to it.

... that's the point.

And the reason my brother and I used to each buy a book is because they fell apart relatively easily (covers delaminated, glue failed, etc) compared to other gaming books.