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Joyboozer wrote:
Doesn't really explain the attitude towards backers in the updates. I get the feeling we're regarded as an inconvenience.

I could be wrong since I do not talk to the people in the office except through a few emails and a couple of calls. I get the sense that it is more of a frustration at wondering if somethings should have been said earlier of if others should have been said at all. I do agree though that some of the assurances are being handled too softly. Platitudes are nice, but unnecessary.

http://venturebeat.com/2013/01/22/why-this-jilted-kickstarter-backer-decided-to-sue-why-he-was-right/

This is a link to the interview with the lawyer who sued the IPad stand Kickstarter after they declared the project a failure and promised to refund money and hadn't done so.

On another note tonight's update is pretty interesting, if they keep doing some like these it will help build up confidence in the project.

What Kickstarter needs to do is update their FAQ to adopt the same "One year, no cost extension" that the NIH, NSF, and other grant agencies provide.

Good enough for government work, right?

After the latest update I think it might be a bit early for a refund. Even if PB ends up a bit more late. That's only my personal opinion of coarse. At best I thought it might be better than the BT sculpts. So far the glaug is looking more like its j-pan counterpart in 1/72. With the details coming along I'm willing to cut them some slack. I'm more interested in seeing the vf series in the next update.

What is the latest update?

 solkan wrote:
What Kickstarter needs to do is update their FAQ to adopt the same "One year, no cost extension" that the NIH, NSF, and other grant agencies provide.

Good enough for government work, right?

I'm all for criticizing the government when valid but this doesn't appear to be analogous at all. Most grant agencies (Government and private) allow for no cost extensions of grants they've awarded to let the grantee spend the originally requested money. Most grantees don't spent everything in the originally planned period due to the difficulty in estimating startup delays and planning for whether you'll get the grant in the first place.

So the provision doesn't really deserve the ironic pejorative, and in this case, we're the NIH!

Update #130 is here

Sorry I am not that great at reposting the entire update in this forum. The pictures would throw me off. So I posted a link to the kickstarter update.

Mike1975 wrote:
if others should have been said at all.

Oh, I'm sure we can think of a thing or two...

That said, this update was an improvement. It's been often requested to see what these things are that they're unhappy with, and they finally did. And I agree with their assessment!

It really shouldn't have taken this long or been this hard, but as I've said before, credit where credit is due.

Still not a fan of the (as mentioned in the comments) "come at me, bro!" pose they keep using for it, but as long as the arms have some leeway to their posing, that's just a personal preference thing I can rectify.

 Forar wrote:

I definitely do not need 300 models.

Technically, you probably don't "need" even one but I think we can all agree that all of us posting in the threads want hundreds of our precioussss...

I am glad though that they're sharing in the latest update the way they did. That is the type of update that the front page description says they would be giving us from the get-go and the type I was expecting. I can put up with delays as long as the delays are explained and not just hand waved away with a platitude *jazz hands*. I hope they continue both the weekly updates as well as treating us like crowdfunders (and not preorderers like during the majority of the last 8 months).

Well, yes, in the literal sense, sure. >.<

I mean more in terms of what I'm ever likely to field. I have sincere doubts I'll ever run more than 300 points in VTs, so getting 600 is probably overkill.

Seriously leaning towards trimming my Zentraedi force down to 'token' levels as well. Just can't see myself playing them nearly as often.

And everything I don't keep is something I don't have to build or store! Win/Win!

... I'm going to owe Battlefoam so much money during their next Thanksgiving Sale.

Edit: of course, that's still conjecture. Maybe playing a 600 point game with nothing but VTs is super fun. But... well, until we know more, I'm assuming there'll hit a point where I'll want to toss some Supers in there instead, or Destroids, or Ghosts/Lancers, etc.

 Forar wrote:
Well, yes, in the literal sense, sure. >.<

I mean more in terms of what I'm ever likely to field. I have sincere doubts I'll ever run more than 300 points in VTs, so getting 600 is probably overkill.

Seriously leaning towards trimming my Zentraedi force down to 'token' levels as well. Just can't see myself playing them nearly as often.

And everything I don't keep is something I don't have to build or store! Win/Win!

... I'm going to owe Battlefoam so much money during their next Thanksgiving Sale.

Edit: of course, that's still conjecture. Maybe playing a 600 point game with nothing but VTs is super fun. But... well, until we know more, I'm assuming there'll hit a point where I'll want to toss some Supers in there instead, or Destroids, or Ghosts/Lancers, etc.

Remember, you may want to "host" a game for a newbie friend or family member in a few years so you should keep a sizeable (*NOT* token) zentraedi force that shows off the variety for that reason. As for battlefoam, if you order custom foam during their sale you won't get it till the next year. My BF BF (battlefoam black friday double twin acronym!) order just arrived last week... after I started calling when emailing wasn't getting anywhere. It's good foam and I got a great deal but you will wait for custom work.

Joyboozer wrote:
Doesn't really explain the attitude towards backers in the updates. I get the feeling we're regarded as an inconvenience.

Of course we are. Once we've paid, would you expect anything else? This kind of attitude is not unique to PB by any means, either.

 warboss wrote:
As for battlefoam, if you order custom foam during their sale you won't get it till the next year. My BF BF (battlefoam black friday double twin acronym!) order just arrived last week... after I started calling when emailing wasn't getting anywhere. It's good foam and I got a great deal but you will wait for custom work.

That explains why PB contracted BF. Birds of a feather I suppose.

 warboss wrote:
Remember, you may want to "host" a game for a newbie friend or family member in a few years so you should keep a sizeable (*NOT* token) zentraedi force that shows off the variety for that reason.

Not likely to happen, but even if it does, I probably won't need more than 24 battlepods for said teaching experience.

Hell, I'd better not. The core box only comes with 12. I think 2 core boxes worth and a pile of extras (eventually) oughta suffice. :-P

As I said earlier in the thread, touch of buyers remorse, realizations that 3 BCs were probably overkill, etc. Wish we'd just stuck with 6 boxes instead of 8.

As for battlefoam, if you order custom foam during their sale you won't get it till the next year. My BF BF (battlefoam black friday double twin acronym!) order just arrived last week... after I started calling when emailing wasn't getting anywhere. It's good foam and I got a great deal but you will wait for custom work.

Aware of that too. But I'm also assuming that I won't have built a force large enough to require its own luggage compartment until early next year anyway. A couple dozen VTs and Destroids oughta fit in the little case I already have (might buy a single tray from the local distributor to make better use of the space), or some other storage solution for the occasional game.

Believe me, I've put a lot of thought into this.

Nari224 wrote:

 solkan wrote:
What Kickstarter needs to do is update their FAQ to adopt the same "One year, no cost extension" that the NIH, NSF, and other grant agencies provide.

Good enough for government work, right?

I'm all for criticizing the government when valid but this doesn't appear to be analogous at all. Most grant agencies (Government and private) allow for no cost extensions of grants they've awarded to let the grantee spend the originally requested money. Most grantees don't spent everything in the originally planned period due to the difficulty in estimating startup delays and planning for whether you'll get the grant in the first place.

So the provision doesn't really deserve the ironic pejorative, and in this case, we're the NIH!

I'm sorry but I'm not sure how you connect the fact that the federal government has a standard for timely completion of grants to some sort of criticism of those grant program standards.

Group A gives money to Group B with the expectation that a project will be completed in such and such time period. And, "due to the difficulty in estimating startup delays and planning for whether you'll get the grant in the first place" there's a policy for an automatic extension.

"due to the difficulty in estimating startup delays and planning for whether you'll get the grant in the first place" seems to be exactly the sort of thing that causes Kickstarter project delays, too. If nothing else, the fact that the project won't know how well the project is going to fund and how much needs to be produced is just as big a factor as whether the grant will be approved.

But only are you the NIH, but you paid money for the privilege. But if you were the NIH, you would have agreed to policies making this delay reasonable.

It certainly doesn't apply to all projects, but I daresay a lot of the ones that have become truly infamous in the community owe their delays to one thing; stretch goals.

It'd be one thing if projects picked a reasonable target and reasonable funding, hit it, and that was that.

Then campaigns started adding goals to inspire more backers/funding by aiming to expand the scope of the project. Better materials, more stuff, swag etc.

Now it's obvious that projects are 'lowballing' their opening offer in order to both tout out the old "omg we funded in X hours!" bit, followed by a flurry of activity. There are people who proclaim that perhaps RRT was only going to hit 30k and just be the base box without expansion. I call shenanigans. There is no way everyone involved put in all that time and work and expected a popular property with nostalgia factored in was only going to get a couple hundred backers.

And bluntly, I think it's leading to some irresponsible behaviour on the venue. Campaigns so wrapped up in hitting that hundred thousand dollar mark, or better, a million plus, who just see the huge Scrooge McDuck style pile of money they should receive in a few weeks, rather than the fact that they just doubled the scale of work to be done and may have made up a few things from whole cloth while they were at it.

Yes, I will cheerfully grant that "omg my toy soldiers were delayed 6/12/48 months" is pretty high up there in "#firstworldproblems", but I do think Kickstarter needs to revisit some of their policies.

It'd be nice if "massive delays" became the exception, as opposed to the rule, at least for gaming KS's.

The problem is that there's no standard to judge by when a project should be complete, especially given the wide range of industries and subject that KS caters to. We tend to look at it mostly through the lens of people wanting it to act as a retail pre-order system for our mans, but they handle lots of stuff and projects particularly truly artistic ones are often something you can't just snap together.

Time constraints are something most artists have a serious struggle with, it's not like other jobs where you punch a 9-5 clock and will have x quantity or art done. The artist mind and work flow typically functions in a very unpredictable wave form that hinges on surges of creative thought and energy, sometimes you are on fire and producing prolific amounts of artwork and other times you are completely useless. Obviously you want to know yourself and you abilities well enough that you can put a realistic estimate towards those projections but sometimes it's not possible particularly when it's some more intangible like music, or writing, that's coming from a single artist.

Also a lot of media forms are virtually impossible to set completion dates on, tons of music and films linger in production for years as the artist or director may need to have those gears turn just right to produce something of value and not rushed slop simply to appease a deadline. That's often the difference between something run of the mill or a masterful artwork. So simply stating that all projects must be done in x time is very limiting on project that are of a much stronger artistic form.

There is a world of difference between creating an object that will serve as a retail product and is created by a team vs an artistic work by a single artist.

Properly researched and planned projects that are focused on developing a commercial product however can be estimated much more accurately. Know that you will need x number of models you can plan accordingly. Many of the delays come from when expectations are wildly exceeded and the KS creator doesn't know their limits. With a lot of projects that smash their goals they start throwing out stretch goal after stretch goal without considering their ability to achieve those goals in a fashionable time. You get dazzled by the money coming in and assume that the increased money will solve all the problems which it doesn't

I think what more people need to do on KS is plan for a maximum funding limit for their projects, while nobody ever wants to turn away business that's beating down your door if you were planning on taking a small sip from the fountain it's a whole other set of prospects to suddenly try taking that sip from a fire hose. I'm sure that having that grand slam project on KS is a very intoxicating experience but you can't allow that to run out of control.

Every project is unique so there's no way to judge what an appropriate standard will be. So rather than have KS set any sort of blanket deadlines for delivery I think they should get people to ask themselves at what point do they get oversaturated with work and how will they prepare for a situation in which they are taking on too much work? You in theory have already correctly considered a lot of various aspects in determining how to meet your offers, it shouldn't take too much additional projection to figure out how to meet any extended goals and have plans created in the case it blows up. Despite doing a very impressive amount of initial ground work planning it seems that most KS project don't put in much effort past their planned goals, or place realistic limits on what they can handle in a maxium capacity. A lot of very successful KS projects are caught scrambling on how they can offer even more stretchgoals and take on more work when they need to set all the ego and excitement aside and start asking can we actually ride this wave? or should we cap this? if it goes well beyond what we planned for what do we do?

Doing otherwise is not really being honest with yourself or your backers.



(Not aiming this specifically at the Robotech KS, but rather all large KS projects in general)


.

 paulson games wrote:
The problem is that there's no standard to judge by when a project should be complete, especially given the wide range of industries and subject that KS caters to. We tend to look at it mostly through the lens of people wanting it to act as a retail pre-order system for our mans, but they handle lots of stuff and projects particularly truly artistic ones are often something you can't just snap together.

Time constraints are something most artists have a serious struggle with, it's not like other jobs where you punch a 9-5 clock and will have x quantity or art done. The artist mind and work flow typically functions in a very unpredictable wave form that hinges on surges of creative thought and energy, sometimes you are on fire and producing prolific amounts of artwork and other times you are completely useless. Obviously you want to know yourself and you abilities well enough that you can put a realistic estimate towards those projections but sometimes it's not possible particularly when it's some more intangible like music, or writing, that's coming from a single artist.

Also a lot of media forms are virtually impossible to set completion dates on, tons of music and films linger in production for years as the artist or director may need to have those gears turn just right to produce something of value and not rushed slop simply to appease a deadline. That's often the difference between something run of the mill or a masterful artwork. So simply stating that all projects must be done in x time is very limiting on project that are of a much stronger artistic form.

There is a world of difference between creating an object that will serve as a retail product and is created by a team vs an artistic work by a single artist.

Properly researched and planned projects that are focused on developing a commercial product however can be estimated much more accurately. Know that you will need x number of models you can plan accordingly. Many of the delays come from when expectations are wildly exceeded and the KS creator doesn't know their limits. With a lot of projects that smash their goals they start throwing out stretch goal after stretch goal without considering their ability to achieve those goals in a fashionable time. You get dazzled by the money coming in and assume that the increased money will solve all the problems which it doesn't

I think what more people need to do on KS is plan for a maximum funding limit for their projects, while nobody ever wants to turn away business that's beating down your door if you were planning on taking a small sip from the fountain it's a whole other set of prospects to suddenly try taking that sip from a fire hose. I'm sure that having that grand slam project on KS is a very intoxicating experience but you can't allow that to run out of control.

Every project is unique so there's no way to judge what an appropriate standard will be. So rather than have KS set any sort of blanket deadlines for delivery I think they should get people to ask themselves at what point do they get oversaturated with work and how will they prepare for a situation in which they are taking on too much work? You in theory have already correctly considered a lot of various aspects in determining how to meet your offers, it shouldn't take too much additional projection to figure out how to meet any extended goals and have plans created in the case it blows up. Despite doing a very impressive amount of initial ground work planning it seems that most KS project don't put in much effort past their planned goals, or place realistic limits on what they can handle in a maxium capacity. A lot of very successful KS projects are caught scrambling on how they can offer even more stretchgoals and take on more work when they need to set all the ego and excitement aside and start asking can we actually ride this wave? or should we cap this? if it goes well beyond what we planned for what do we do?

Doing otherwise is not really being honest with yourself or your backers.

(Not aiming this specifically at the Robotech KS, but rather all large KS projects in general).

Everything you and Forar said is true. However, I think some companies are approaching things more effectively, if not more realistically. Apparently some KS companies don't actually look at other successful KS's, and how they ran their projects. CMON with their Season 2 Zombicide had the definite time when things were split for a second shipment. Then, with the Rivet Wars project, the actual creator, Ted Terranova, added some new figures for KS backers when they had to change the core game due to space constraints in the physical box.

I don't see any of this from PB. Them giving us the core box in June is only to allow them to push their product at Gencon, not out of some altruistic thought of the backers. I agree with some of the previous posts, that PB has treated us more like a nuisance, that they don't need to explain things to us. I know that Mike1975 feels like he owes the party line to us for his involvement in this, but they need to up their PR effort.

I still am impressed with how badly the public relations are handled.

I have had to "manage" both suppliers and customers and in both relations you should give the impression they are "important" to you.

Sounding out missives gushing about how scrumptious the plastic money making pieces are so fiddly that you need lots of time getting them just right can only be written so many ways.

Give me a freaking spreadsheet.
1) List in the first column all the different separate models.
2) In the top row list all the operations in order of what needs to be done with approximate time needed between steps. Update these as you learn with each progressive item or in parallel. Go completely insane and add extra columns as you find new operations that need to be done.
3) An approximate date of completion can be determined with this method.
4) At the end of the row use "Max(...)" to determine the last part to complete for your main timeline.
5) Make a timeline for packing and shipping like in step 2 starting with the longest running part.
6) You now have a rough and easy schedule (or dazzle them with Microsoft Project or something...)
7) Divulge to backers as often as you wish!
8) Update with extreme diligence.

Your customers will like you even if they do not quite agree with the long wait but at least an honest effort is made with some degree of accuracy.

PB is really giving the message that we as customers are "stupid" and cannot understand all the "gee-wiz" development and manufacture intricacies.
Wrong, it is stupid to be unable to convey information in an understandable way and show you have things under control.
So at least if you have to make a correction to your timeline it is easy to understand.

Is there really anything negative here??

Simple!!!!

 Talizvar wrote:


PB is really giving the message that we as customers are "stupid" and cannot understand all the "gee-wiz" development and manufacture intricacies.
Wrong, it is stupid to be unable to convey information in an understandable way and show you have things under control.
So at least if you have to make a correction to your timeline it is easy to understand.

Is there really anything negative here??

Simple!!!!

How can we simple customers understand the intricacies of product development from the depths of our parents' basements when those atop Mt. Michigan at Palladium couldn't fathom them during all of 2013? What you're proposing also sounds like alot more work than asking people on payday what they think of their boss's big project. I trust Palladium as they've been in a somewhat related business for over 30 years which has kept them going (along with panhandling and selling gimmicks like pencils and mugs instead of new books for half the lines) without a need for unnecessary things like project management and accountability. Why fix what is only 98% broken? If you do that, you're basically throwing away the 2% that still works! Heck, next you'll tell me that Soviet style communism isn't a viable socioeconomic strategy...

 Salacious Greed wrote:
.

I don't see any of this from PB. Them giving us the core box in June is only to allow them to push their product at Gencon, not out of some altruistic thought of the backers. I agree with some of the previous posts, that PB has treated us more like a nuisance, that they don't need to explain things to us. I know that Mike1975 feels like he owes the party line to us for his involvement in this, but they need to up their PR effort.

Well what do you except, PB is the company that basically got a million+ bucks from there "fans" for "nothing". PB did it before, way wouldn't they take there time and snub there backers again. Then they will just release the game whenever the feel like it, even if years later.

 warboss wrote:
How can we simple customers understand the intricacies of product development from the depths of our parents' basements when those atop Mt. Michigan at Palladium couldn't fathom them during all of 2013?

You are very correct, I am mistaken, what is a daily thing for me does not necessarily translate to other work experiences especially since they have farmed out for those skills and then do not use them.

What you're proposing also sounds like alot more work than asking people on payday what they think of their boss's big project. I trust Palladium as they've been in a somewhat related business for over 30 years which has kept them going (along with panhandling and selling gimmicks like pencils and mugs instead of new books for half the lines) without a need for unnecessary things like project management and accountability.

It has been identified historically if project management was applied it would just further confusion on why they run so late or do not publish at all. Again, my mistake...

Why fix what is only 98% broken? If you do that, you're basically throwing away the 2% that still works!

The Forar drinking game continues... 2% has kept them in food so this is more correct than I like.

Heck, next you'll tell me that Soviet style communism isn't a viable socioeconomic strategy...

But you have me in agreement, it was a good system for the time especially when you do not want people thinking for themselves, like PB's culture...

 Talizvar wrote:

 warboss wrote:
How can we simple customers understand the intricacies of product development from the depths of our parents' basements when those atop Mt. Michigan at Palladium couldn't fathom them during all of 2013?

You are very correct, I am mistaken, what is a daily thing for me does not necessarily translate to other work experiences especially since they have farmed out for those skills and then do not use them.

What you're proposing also sounds like alot more work than asking people on payday what they think of their boss's big project. I trust Palladium as they've been in a somewhat related business for over 30 years which has kept them going (along with panhandling and selling gimmicks like pencils and mugs instead of new books for half the lines) without a need for unnecessary things like project management and accountability.

It has been identified historically if project management was applied it would just further confusion on why they run so late or do not publish at all. Again, my mistake...

Why fix what is only 98% broken? If you do that, you're basically throwing away the 2% that still works!

The Forar drinking game continues... 2% has kept them in food so this is more correct than I like.

Heck, next you'll tell me that Soviet style communism isn't a viable socioeconomic strategy...

But you have me in agreement, it was a good system for the time especially when you do not want people thinking for themselves, like PB's culture...

Warboss, Talizvar, you guys make me laugh. Very nice witticisms and sarcasm.

However, this is the level I place PB at:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/11/world/middleeast/suicide-bomb-instructor-accidentally-kills-iraqi-pupils.html?hp&_r=0

Good thing they only make horrible books...

 Salacious Greed wrote:

 paulson games wrote:
The problem is that there's no standard to judge by when a project should be complete, especially given the wide range of industries and subject that KS caters to. We tend to look at it mostly through the lens of people wanting it to act as a retail pre-order system for our mans, but they handle lots of stuff and projects particularly truly artistic ones are often something you can't just snap together.

Time constraints are something most artists have a serious struggle with, it's not like other jobs where you punch a 9-5 clock and will have x quantity or art done. The artist mind and work flow typically functions in a very unpredictable wave form that hinges on surges of creative thought and energy, sometimes you are on fire and producing prolific amounts of artwork and other times you are completely useless. Obviously you want to know yourself and you abilities well enough that you can put a realistic estimate towards those projections but sometimes it's not possible particularly when it's some more intangible like music, or writing, that's coming from a single artist.

Also a lot of media forms are virtually impossible to set completion dates on, tons of music and films linger in production for years as the artist or director may need to have those gears turn just right to produce something of value and not rushed slop simply to appease a deadline. That's often the difference between something run of the mill or a masterful artwork. So simply stating that all projects must be done in x time is very limiting on project that are of a much stronger artistic form.

There is a world of difference between creating an object that will serve as a retail product and is created by a team vs an artistic work by a single artist.

Properly researched and planned projects that are focused on developing a commercial product however can be estimated much more accurately. Know that you will need x number of models you can plan accordingly. Many of the delays come from when expectations are wildly exceeded and the KS creator doesn't know their limits. With a lot of projects that smash their goals they start throwing out stretch goal after stretch goal without considering their ability to achieve those goals in a fashionable time. You get dazzled by the money coming in and assume that the increased money will solve all the problems which it doesn't

I think what more people need to do on KS is plan for a maximum funding limit for their projects, while nobody ever wants to turn away business that's beating down your door if you were planning on taking a small sip from the fountain it's a whole other set of prospects to suddenly try taking that sip from a fire hose. I'm sure that having that grand slam project on KS is a very intoxicating experience but you can't allow that to run out of control.

Every project is unique so there's no way to judge what an appropriate standard will be. So rather than have KS set any sort of blanket deadlines for delivery I think they should get people to ask themselves at what point do they get oversaturated with work and how will they prepare for a situation in which they are taking on too much work? You in theory have already correctly considered a lot of various aspects in determining how to meet your offers, it shouldn't take too much additional projection to figure out how to meet any extended goals and have plans created in the case it blows up. Despite doing a very impressive amount of initial ground work planning it seems that most KS project don't put in much effort past their planned goals, or place realistic limits on what they can handle in a maxium capacity. A lot of very successful KS projects are caught scrambling on how they can offer even more stretchgoals and take on more work when they need to set all the ego and excitement aside and start asking can we actually ride this wave? or should we cap this? if it goes well beyond what we planned for what do we do?

Doing otherwise is not really being honest with yourself or your backers.

(Not aiming this specifically at the Robotech KS, but rather all large KS projects in general).

Everything you and Forar said is true. However, I think some companies are approaching things more effectively, if not more realistically. Apparently some KS companies don't actually look at other successful KS's, and how they ran their projects. CMON with their Season 2 Zombicide had the definite time when things were split for a second shipment. Then, with the Rivet Wars project, the actual creator, Ted Terranova, added some new figures for KS backers when they had to change the core game due to space constraints in the physical box.

I don't see any of this from PB. Them giving us the core box in June is only to allow them to push their product at Gencon, not out of some altruistic thought of the backers. I agree with some of the previous posts, that PB has treated us more like a nuisance, that they don't need to explain things to us. I know that Mike1975 feels like he owes the party line to us for his involvement in this, but they need to up their PR effort.

I'm not sure how to take this last bit. I could give a rats ass about the Party line. BUT instead of bitching, whining, groaning, and complaining oft and constantly about 1. Things I cannot control. 2. Things I am not directly involved with and so cannot but guess at the real details 3. Decide to use my very limited knowledge to fill in those gaps and ending up with a good point here and there more often then not made off of some really bad assumptions based off of my very limited knowledge.

How did they let me get my foot in the door? Well instead of the 3 items from above I decided to take what we knew, and make the best of it. I used my own time and money to create and print standees and a game table. I used what knowledge I do have to dig through what little information we have from the KS and managed to build a more complete rules set that I blatantly offered for the betterment of all. Now because of the KS I was asked to not share the standees but many have see how easy they are to make and have made their own. I've been allowed to look at the rules and have made suggestions and shared ideas on how to improve things. What I have in all is not very far at all from what will be seen when the actual rules come out. I will up date a few things in the rules before the end of the month so that others who wish to play can also work on something similar.

After a few of the calls and emails I tend to think that PB is concerned that we get a good product and that we are happy with it. Although Kevin knows little about Mini gaming there are others who do and they have listened and even argued on some points with me. They know, as you and I do, that many Mini Gamers are pains in the ass and rules lawyers who often look for small rules technicalities to use to their advantage to win, always, and every time. I do not see any holes that will allow these types of players to move in and breed so I'm hoping for the best. Most of my suggestions have been on small rules changes and clarifications and adjustments of unit costs. Honestly they are working to make this the best they can for you.

Should they make a spreadsheet like Talivizar says, personally, I think so. Could they have said more earlier, at some points no, there were some things that no matter what was said ND and PB would be accused of either being lax or throwing each other under the bus for mistakes. If you have ever taken part in a big project, even to your manager you try to smooth the hard edges over and throw glitter on what is working well as long as it is not overdoing it. We are considered like shareholders, we put money in their hands to build a product. They can't come back and say look, "um, things are not as planned, give me more", BUT we expect to be able to go to them and say, "um I don't think it's working, I'm out". Whoever has that idea needs to go back and understand the process of a crowndfunder from square one.


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In fact the rules are so close to what they had some were quite literally surprised and wondered where in the world I got the information and then they remembered about the pre-release rules and tactical briefings.

Yes, that point does give me a little pride.

And for those who have read and/or played with the rules, thank you and I'm glad you have had fun and enjoyed it.

Mike, buddy, you're not really helping your case here.

If all it takes to be heard is to basically create their game for them from scratch (perhaps with some community interaction), play out a few games using these extrapolated rules and then email back and forth with the staff themselves, it's not exactly something that thousands or even dozens of backers could've all done.

What you did is impressive. It's great that you've had those efforts recognized.

But that still doesn't excuse the months of gak'y communications.

They've gotten better of late, which is nice. It's not great (want to see great updates? Go look at Xia), but it's a hell of a lot better than they were.

But don't downplay it like you just printed off your own Battlepod and Veritech stat cards from the net and suddenly you were heard.

Not to mention that it shouldn't take that much to be heard in the first place. They have forums. They have a KS comments section. Neither of which see a fraction of the interaction you've expressed having, despite potentially reaching several orders of magnitude more at once with either or both.

Hell, you, a non-employee, should not be one of our best sources of inside information, limited as that may be.

Things like that are a greater condemnation of this campaign than any snark we might lob at it, and that communication failure lands right on them.

And you know what, on closer examination? It's pretty gak'y to share the rules with ANY backer and leave the rest in the dark, considering how many times the fans have asked to see them.

Keeping those close to the chest, ESPECIALLY if they're able to be retroengineered by a backer with merely an outline to guide them is not currying them any favor.

Agreed. I signed up to fund/buy a Robotech minis game line to be delivered between October and December of 2013 with a buffer of 2-3 months as reasonable, not to be "allowed" to possibly reverse engineer their clunky RPG system into a minis game as severance for them not having a clue what they were getting into despite people telling them both before, during, and after warnings that have since come true.

In the end, Mike, people complain because Palladium has nonstop given them multiple valid reasons to complain. There are plenty of great suggestions that weren't followed over the past 8 months and others that still aren't being followed like a part by part spreadsheet updated weekly or biweekly as well as rules previews or preferably a full PDF release of the rules. I realize you agree with the above but the sentiments aren't shared over at Palladium and it follows a pattern. They've improved significantly over the past month in that regard which is why I've been cutting them slack on the KS comments as well as their forum but improving over months of silence punctuated by periodic platitudes is a pretty low bar to start with.

Do you want to see an alternate stream of Palladium project management failure? Check out the past two months of weekly updates about the UEEF Marines Robotech RPG book. That, just like the kickstarter, is not even treading water but actually moving back out to sea in terms of the release date. Over the past two months, it has gone from early 2012 to spring and Kevin just mentioned this week that he is still ASSIGNING art to various artists for the book. How the hell was he just a week or two planning on coming out with it in early spring when he hadn't even doled out the work assignments for art? That is the type of repeated systematic failure that pisses people off and gives them valid reasons to be overtly negative. You've hinted above that Palladium could have been more open but it would have been seen as throwing others under the bus but the RPG books are completely in their court until they're ready to be approved by HG... and yet we see the same type of empty promises and excuses from RPG projects just like we see with the minis game. Again, they 2 months ago obviously didn't have art even assigned (let alone reviewed and corrected if necessary by Palladium AND THEN sent to HG) but they felt the need to pad the weekly release with completely bonkers dates. Feel free to also follow the progress of the NG1 and 2 crowdfunded books that are touched by no one but palladium and their staff and yet are a year late despite being weeks away from the printer... two summers ago. There is a pattern.. you just have to see it yourself and not blame the people who do.

No, in the end people complain because they are wont to when they do not get what they want or things do not turn out to their expectations. My main point was that I found a way to move things forward and share and try to take part. Palladium has had problems in the past, yes, are you allowing that to cloud the present. I believe so. Will any of this change one wit of what you think. Unlikely. I know what patterns are there. I also know that if you want to look you can often create a pattern to fit whatever agenda you wish it to.

Forar,
C'mon, creating the game for them? You know that is just exaggeration. I put it together in large part from what they posted. I did not say the communication is awesome but when everyone jumps around pointing fingers on assumptions it reminds me of the guy who got in trouble for slapping a kid in class and sent to the principal. What the teacher does not know is that the kid who slapped the other kid was putting up with crap for the last 3 months and the teacher never noticed and finally snapped. There are a lot of assumptions here and NONE of it is evidence based. We are all like the teacher. We don't have the full picture.

Try a different track???? What kinds of things would cause a delay that neither Palladium or ND would want us to know about or think that it would not be wise to share with us? We like conspiracies right? What would the response be if shared? Is there enough clues from the recent updates to figure this out?

And no sharing the rules with one or two players when there are already well over 100 under NDA that playtested is not a huge deal for anybody but me personally. If you want maybe you could HELP with some of the things I would like to add to what I'm doing and maybe you might get a pek too? Still want to convert all the Macross stuff?

Actaully, mike1975 I did try and email them a while back and directly ask them for playrest info. They told me pointblank that they were not allowing others into the playtest and everything would be handled internally.

To allow only a few to have those very same rules which were supposedly 90% done last year is absolutely horrible PR. It's an absolute snub to the various fans who not only made their dream a reality, but want to help keep the dream alive.

This whole sitaution has absolutely burned me on anything PB will ever do again and it's because of theor horrible communication skills.

Update #131

Fear not Palladium True Believers! ©,™ There's plenty more:





I kid... mostly.



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sqir666 wrote:
Actaully, mike1975 I did try and email them a while back and directly ask them for playrest info. They told me pointblank that they were not allowing others into the playtest and everything would be handled internally.

To allow only a few to have those very same rules which were supposedly 90% done last year is absolutely horrible PR. It's an absolute snub to the various fans who not only made their dream a reality, but want to help keep the dream alive.

This whole sitaution has absolutely burned me on anything PB will ever do again and it's because of theor horrible communication skills.

I was not brought in as a play tester. Playtesting was pretty much well over and done. I was brought in so that I could share with everyone some of the rules and information between now and release. If you learn the mechanics through after action reports its basically good PR. I can't understand the teary eyed but why not everybody attitude. That is a farce. The real question is more often Why is some other fan any more deserving than me? Answer. Check my Facebook page. I worked for it. Then emailed PB thinking why not? Nearly two months later I got a response. I wasn't expecting one. Hoping yes, expecting, No.


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besides. Just about EVERY backer is a huge fan. Do you just PDF the rules? Nope. Can't. HG and other IP holders would likely not allow that. As it is numerous fan based minis and such have disappeared in the last year or so.