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Joyboozer wrote:
So, is the game still written by Alessio?

Yes then it will be hacked and rewritten so Kevin can claim the kudos.

 Cypher-xv wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
So, is the game still written by Alessio?

Yes then it will be hacked and rewritten so Kevin can claim the kudos.

I have a strong feeling you are right. I think maybe that's part of the reason for it being so hush hush. Maybe someone knows they've been butchered and don't have the guts to tell the boss.

If we are right-
The rules are being revised by somebody who as far as I know has never played a wargame, doesn't really believe in playtesting and when you play in a game he runs, he doesn't even use his own game system. I've played in games he's run. It's all off the cuff, total GM caveat. It's a lot of fun, don't get me wrong. But loosey goosey doesn't work in tactical wargaming. I find it interesting that RPG appears in the game title. I definitely think some of the RPG rules are going to be inserted into the ruleset.

Releasing the rulebook- I mean wouldn't having folks who know this kinda stuff through and through, playtest your make or break, million dollar, untried and untested, new flagship product make sense?

Oh wait...who am I kidding.

Pallydrone

Have you seen this?
http://rosswatson.blogspot.com/2012/05/publisher-profile-palladium-books-part.html

It's seems like industry people see the same from PB.

saw it b4 thanks

Man that Duncan guy sure loves HG and RT.lol

Eh...what good is anything without a good bad guy. Or a bad good guy. or guy bad good.

He's got the post count flowing again. You gotta give him that. He's a fighter.

Since PB seems to be in self denile mode again, it would explain why there's no update. It would be nice to have miniatures instaed of models. It's going to take longer to get me pieces ready.

Is PB a bad good guy or just an incompetent bad guy?lol

 Cypher-xv wrote:
Since PB seems to be in self denile mode again, it would explain why there's no update. It would be nice to have miniatures instaed of models. It's going to take longer to get me pieces ready.

Is PB a bad good guy or just an incompetent bad guy?lol

Well somehow they're a combination of Darth Vader and Uncle Rico (from Napolean Dynamite).

Man I'm glad I didn't pledge, if I could post on there I'd be wasting all my time trying to make sensible posts to a sea of trolls.

I'm amazed how little thought Palladium fans give to the real world. It would seem all hurdles the release faces will be acceptable because they've been waiting for this for to be released for 30 years.

Joyboozer wrote:
I'm amazed how little thought Palladium fans give to the real world. It would seem all hurdles the release faces will be acceptable because they've been waiting for this for to be released for 30 years.

To me who has dabbled in Palladium fandom, I've always found the slavering worship, blind-eye-turning and rabid defense of Kevin Siembeida and Palladium perplexing. I really think it's an emotional reaction. They really love the games and the settings, but cannot separate the company from their emotions. When somebody criticizes the company, they process it as a a personal attack..

If you look at the facts. The delays. The weird business practices. The unconventional way the books are written. The cut and pasting of the same typos and errors from book to book for 25 or 30 years. Yes...there are typos that are ignored and repeated that are listed as errors on the website., It's up to you to fix things.

In the fantasy setting, if you follow the character creation steps as written, you can't actually roll up a character. They're out of order. It's been like that for I'm guessing 25 years and has just been reprinted in a special hardcover 25th anniversary edition.

Ugh. I need to stop this. They breed such a toxic atmosphere.

I think Palladium might cause cancer.

 paulson games wrote:
Man I'm glad I didn't pledge, if I could post on there I'd be wasting all my time trying to make sensible posts to a sea of trolls.

Ugh. Welcome to my world.

The gaps in these models, while disappointing, aren't to me that bad. It's more that with a years effort on these models you would expect to see better. If the models looked like this 8 months ago and we were getting them in 2-3 months, I would find them more acceptable. You just can't see where a year's worth of effort went.

The only thing I can think of is that there was so much mismanagement and/or procrastination in getting the original renders approved, that when it came time make changes to the designs to better support production. all concerned just said, " it, slice it all down the middle". It's the only thing that makes sense to me.

I wrote this project off as a loss months ago. If there isn't any measurable progress to getting models on a boat by July, I think it will be time for the backers to start on some collective action to get compensation.

 CaulynDarr wrote:

I wrote this project off as a loss months ago. If there isn't any measurable progress to getting models on a boat by July, I think it will be time for the backers to start on some collective action to get compensation.

Litigation would take years - and they'd use 'pending litigation' as in excuse to delay further.

 judgedoug wrote:

 CaulynDarr wrote:

I wrote this project off as a loss months ago. If there isn't any measurable progress to getting models on a boat by July, I think it will be time for the backers to start on some collective action to get compensation.

Litigation would take years - and they'd use 'pending litigation' as in excuse to delay further.

As well as an excuse to cut off all communication for weeks/months at a time "at the advice of our lawyers" which would put us back where we were last Autumn with nothing but empty platitudes...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joyboozer wrote:
I'm amazed how little thought Palladium fans give to the real world. It would seem all hurdles the release faces will be acceptable because they've been waiting for this for to be released for 30 years.

That type of "feedback" (more like a feedback loop as it's about as variable as static and also as helpful) is what Palladium has selectively chosen to surround themselves with and exclusively listen to for over a decade. They've come out and flatly said they respond to positive feedback not negative and that if you're not happy with them then you are NOT a customer as 99% of "customers" in their 2012 "poll" were satisfied with the status quo. I had been hoping the involvement of ND would have changed the situation but they're unfortunately their own unique brand of turd apparently.

 PallyDrone wrote:

 Cypher-xv wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
So, is the game still written by Alessio?

Yes then it will be hacked and rewritten so Kevin can claim the kudos.

I have a strong feeling you are right. I think maybe that's part of the reason for it being so hush hush. Maybe someone knows they've been butchered and don't have the guts to tell the boss.

If we are right-
The rules are being revised by somebody who as far as I know has never played a wargame, doesn't really believe in playtesting and when you play in a game he runs, he doesn't even use his own game system. I've played in games he's run. It's all off the cuff, total GM caveat. It's a lot of fun, don't get me wrong. But loosey goosey doesn't work in tactical wargaming. I find it interesting that RPG appears in the game title. I definitely think some of the RPG rules are going to be inserted into the ruleset.

Releasing the rulebook- I mean wouldn't having folks who know this kinda stuff through and through, playtest your make or break, million dollar, untried and untested, new flagship product make sense?

Oh wait...who am I kidding.

Ok guys, some of you may know this, others will not. I have an NDA and have a copy of the official rules. They are from back in January. Now they are laid out and fully illustrated. The rules overall look well done and I have read through most of it. At present I've been making some minor suggestions for a few changes, but nothing major, mostly things to add flavor. There are 2 reasons for the rules not being printed out, at least this is what I understand. The first is that the illustration inside the book are considered HG property since they are Robotech and they have pushed to not have anything in PDF. Not even the staff has electronic copies of the material from what I understand. The copy that I have is a printer copy that I was sent via mail. Now the second reason is pure conjecture on my part, but it would makes sense. If you know that the minis are all are not ready to roll yet, you are a publishing company so that when it's time to get on the rules you know you can go to print really quickly, wouldn't you wait until time was short and use you people with NDA's like myself to go and look for any and all typos. Maybe even make suggestions for rules changes and/or clarifications to add more fun and realism to the game?

I know the many will take this how they will. I accept that. I'm just sharing what I know of the situation. I am also doing my damndest to see if there is another way to share as much of the rules as possible. If you have any rules questions feel free to ask.

Mike1975 wrote:
The first is that the illustration inside the book are considered HG property since they are Robotech and they have pushed to not have anything in PDF. Not even the staff has electronic copies of the material from what I understand. The copy that I have is a printer copy that I was sent via mail.

This is stupid and horrible and wrong. I'm not doubting it's a reason they're giving, but it's a dumb one.

It's entirely possible to have PDFs with placeholder images (a box with an X) for any of the illustrations to make things easier on playtesters. In fact it should be easier to do that than to mail out hundreds of pages (through certified mail of course) to the multiple playtesters they have.

The fact that they're withholding PDFs of rules is because of a mindset that is still stuck in the 90s and refusing to move on. They're literally making things harder on themselves by not having a pdf.

I think the rules were not a huge issue. I pitched in some concerns (see LOS discussion and skirmish rules) and as long as they aren't as facepalmingly bad as 40k, the skirmish rules aren't rubbish, and the layout is not confusing to sift through, then there shouldn't be a problem on that front (of course, they could still end up being 40k 2.0).


What has made me back off is those models. That really pumped the brakes on all my enthusiasm, and caused me to reconsider the game (besides their expected release date looks to be pushed back yet again). Now my eyes are being opened to all the problems, and I am not so keen to shrug it off.

rigeld2 wrote:

Mike1975 wrote:
The first is that the illustration inside the book are considered HG property since they are Robotech and they have pushed to not have anything in PDF. Not even the staff has electronic copies of the material from what I understand. The copy that I have is a printer copy that I was sent via mail.

This is stupid and horrible and wrong. I'm not doubting it's a reason they're giving, but it's a dumb one.

It's entirely possible to have PDFs with placeholder images (a box with an X) for any of the illustrations to make things easier on playtesters. In fact it should be easier to do that than to mail out hundreds of pages (through certified mail of course) to the multiple playtesters they have.

The fact that they're withholding PDFs of rules is because of a mindset that is still stuck in the 90s and refusing to move on. They're literally making things harder on themselves by not having a pdf.

I'd think with all the negative buzz, releasing the rules might chill some folks out. And if they're good...generate positive buzz.
Maybe...eh...who am I kidding.

They really are stuck in 1992.

I hope this doesn't end up being a gigantic, steaming Zentraedi turd. Damn if you think of it...the Jurassic Park dino piles would be about the right size.

rigeld2 wrote:

Mike1975 wrote:
The first is that the illustration inside the book are considered HG property since they are Robotech and they have pushed to not have anything in PDF. Not even the staff has electronic copies of the material from what I understand. The copy that I have is a printer copy that I was sent via mail.

This is stupid and horrible and wrong. I'm not doubting it's a reason they're giving, but it's a dumb one.

It's entirely possible to have PDFs with placeholder images (a box with an X) for any of the illustrations to make things easier on playtesters. In fact it should be easier to do that than to mail out hundreds of pages (through certified mail of course) to the multiple playtesters they have.

The fact that they're withholding PDFs of rules is because of a mindset that is still stuck in the 90s and refusing to move on. They're literally making things harder on themselves by not having a pdf.

I don't necessarily disagree but that is what I understand, granted I am in no way an insider either.

Ironwill13791 wrote:I think the rules were not a huge issue. I pitched in some concerns (see LOS discussion and skirmish rules) and as long as they aren't as facepalmingly bad as 40k, the skirmish rules aren't rubbish, and the layout is not confusing to sift through, then there shouldn't be a problem on that front (of course, they could still end up being 40k 2.0).


What has made me back off is those models. That really pumped the brakes on all my enthusiasm, and caused me to reconsider the game (besides their expected release date looks to be pushed back yet again). Now my eyes are being opened to all the problems, and I am not so keen to shrug it off.

You are correct the rules are pretty solid, I just hope to make them much more so and ready to easily add in units from the second and third generations.

PallyDrone wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Mike1975 wrote:
The first is that the illustration inside the book are considered HG property since they are Robotech and they have pushed to not have anything in PDF. Not even the staff has electronic copies of the material from what I understand. The copy that I have is a printer copy that I was sent via mail.

This is stupid and horrible and wrong. I'm not doubting it's a reason they're giving, but it's a dumb one.

It's entirely possible to have PDFs with placeholder images (a box with an X) for any of the illustrations to make things easier on playtesters. In fact it should be easier to do that than to mail out hundreds of pages (through certified mail of course) to the multiple playtesters they have.

The fact that they're withholding PDFs of rules is because of a mindset that is still stuck in the 90s and refusing to move on. They're literally making things harder on themselves by not having a pdf.

I'd think with all the negative buzz, releasing the rules might chill some folks out. And if they're good...generate positive buzz.
Maybe...eh...who am I kidding.

They really are stuck in 1992.

I hope this doesn't end up being a gigantic, steaming Zentraedi turd. Damn if you think of it...the Jurassic Park dino piles would be about the right size.

rigeld2 wrote:

Mike1975 wrote:
The first is that the illustration inside the book are considered HG property since they are Robotech and they have pushed to not have anything in PDF. Not even the staff has electronic copies of the material from what I understand. The copy that I have is a printer copy that I was sent via mail.

This is stupid and horrible and wrong. I'm not doubting it's a reason they're giving, but it's a dumb one.

It's entirely possible to have PDFs with placeholder images (a box with an X) for any of the illustrations to make things easier on playtesters. In fact it should be easier to do that than to mail out hundreds of pages (through certified mail of course) to the multiple playtesters they have.

The fact that they're withholding PDFs of rules is because of a mindset that is still stuck in the 90s and refusing to move on. They're literally making things harder on themselves by not having a pdf.

I don't disagree, remember we are dealing with one of the most complex IPs in the gaming industry which is well known for having lawsuits thrown around based on it.

Woah. No digital copies at all for anyone?

They... they said they had hundreds of playtesters. I cannot imagine the time and cost that would've been involved in mailing out updates weekly or even a couple of times per month after compiling playtester feedback.

So many dead trees...

Or I guess they could've expected people to just write in/post it note their existing copies, but a couple of revisions in that'd just be a giant mess. Wyrd's Malifaux 2.0 beta test had weekly updates based on playtester feedback for adjustments to both game and figure mechanics. Put out to the community in general, openly and for free once the closed Beta ended, I might add.

"It's been thoroughly playtested" was one of their declarations, but man, I can't imagine being one of those playtesters pencil'ing in notes that this figure now has a PIL of 2 and a GUN of 4 and the character section should just be thrown out and replaced with a big X and the subtitle "HERE BE DRAGONS" etc, etc, etc.

Mike1975 wrote:

Ok guys, some of you may know this, others will not. I have an NDA and have a copy of the official rules. They are from back in January. Now they are laid out and fully illustrated. The rules overall look well done and I have read through most of it. At present I've been making some minor suggestions for a few changes, but nothing major, mostly things to add flavor. There are 2 reasons for the rules not being printed out, at least this is what I understand. The first is that the illustration inside the book are considered HG property since they are Robotech and they have pushed to not have anything in PDF. Not even the staff has electronic copies of the material from what I understand. The copy that I have is a printer copy that I was sent via mail. Now the second reason is pure conjecture on my part, but it would makes sense. If you know that the minis are all are not ready to roll yet, you are a publishing company so that when it's time to get on the rules you know you can go to print really quickly, wouldn't you wait until time was short and use you people with NDA's like myself to go and look for any and all typos. Maybe even make suggestions for rules changes and/or clarifications to add more fun and realism to the game?

I know the many will take this how they will. I accept that. I'm just sharing what I know of the situation. I am also doing my damndest to see if there is another way to share as much of the rules as possible. If you have any rules questions feel free to ask.

The first is an incredibly outdated excuse for the reasons already listed. As for the second reason, no matter how good the playtesters are at catching mistakes, 50x the playtesters (the number of pledgers) potentially looking at the files will find more.

I know you like what you see but I think it's reasonable for those of us on the outside to take that with a grain of salt considering that every step has involved failing at some point. Project management? Failed as the delivery date is already 8 months late after the earliest estimate and counting. Consistent meaningful communication? Absent for months last summer/fall. Mouth watering minis? Overly finnicky construction combined with the worst possible placement of the seams. Promotion? A Design an Ace contest that ended up being a joke as it was 6 months late and had only a single winner instead of multiple. The only shoe they have left to drop are the rules and they're playing them very close to their chest. That is a very worrisome thing indeed with Palladium.

There were simple digital copies before they put illustrations in the rules and that was well over a year ago when they were doing some heavy playtesting.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Again, this is most plausible explanation in my mind

I don't disagree, remember we are dealing with one of the most complex IPs in the gaming industry which is well known for having lawsuits thrown around based on it.

Why take chances when you do not need to?

Because the natives are restless and eventually you need to either gak or get off the pot? :-P

Gotta say, Mike, from what I'm hearing of your fan page, Alex remains an absolute gem of the community.

, we have some of all types, I already had one guy quite due to some political comments that were made in good jest.

 warboss wrote:

Mike1975 wrote:

Ok guys, some of you may know this, others will not. I have an NDA and have a copy of the official rules. They are from back in January. Now they are laid out and fully illustrated. The rules overall look well done and I have read through most of it. At present I've been making some minor suggestions for a few changes, but nothing major, mostly things to add flavor. There are 2 reasons for the rules not being printed out, at least this is what I understand. The first is that the illustration inside the book are considered HG property since they are Robotech and they have pushed to not have anything in PDF. Not even the staff has electronic copies of the material from what I understand. The copy that I have is a printer copy that I was sent via mail. Now the second reason is pure conjecture on my part, but it would makes sense. If you know that the minis are all are not ready to roll yet, you are a publishing company so that when it's time to get on the rules you know you can go to print really quickly, wouldn't you wait until time was short and use you people with NDA's like myself to go and look for any and all typos. Maybe even make suggestions for rules changes and/or clarifications to add more fun and realism to the game?

I know the many will take this how they will. I accept that. I'm just sharing what I know of the situation. I am also doing my damndest to see if there is another way to share as much of the rules as possible. If you have any rules questions feel free to ask.

The first is an incredibly outdated excuse for the reasons already listed. As for the second reason, no matter how good the playtesters are at catching mistakes, 50x the playtesters (the number of pledgers) potentially looking at the files will find more.

I know you like what you see but I think it's reasonable for those of us on the outside to take that with a grain of salt considering that every step has involved failing at some point. Project management? Failed as the delivery date is already 8 months late after the earliest estimate and counting. Consistent meaningful communication? Absent for months last summer/fall. Mouth watering minis? Overly finnicky construction combined with the worst possible placement of the seams. Promotion? A Design an Ace contest that ended up being a joke as it was 6 months late and had only a single winner instead of multiple. The only shoe they have left to drop are the rules and they're playing them very close to their chest. That is a very worrisome thing indeed with Palladium.

I wonder who is doing the playtesting?

I know a freelancer and inner circle guy is probably one of them. But from what I know of him, I've met him. He's very much a full fledged fan..

 judgedoug wrote:

 CaulynDarr wrote:

I wrote this project off as a loss months ago. If there isn't any measurable progress to getting models on a boat by July, I think it will be time for the backers to start on some collective action to get compensation.

Litigation would take years - and they'd use 'pending litigation' as in excuse to delay further.

Litigation isn't the only option. An organized group of backers pushing for refunds my be the best first step.

And at some point after enough delays you have to admit that the release is never going to happen. Then what does it matter if litigation is going to push the vaporware back even further.

I am becoming a bit afraid after catching up on all the posts and the links (thanks all!) and daring to look at the kickstarter again.

I realize what if investing in this "Robotech" is just allowing myself to get sucked into a past that will never "reboot" into something current?

It will drag out so bad that other than finding the physical people posting in the forum it will be a whole lot of "meh" and will go absolutely nowhere?

What if we are like a more sheep version of the "white knights" that we are still drinking Kevin's Kool-Aid and it is just one more way to be drawn into his unsuccessful and forgotten past?

Yes I do like the IP but it is all pointless if we can hardly find anyone local to play with. I feel this thing has a limited shelf life and if they mismanage it any worse the launch will barely be noticed.

I could just see that right at Christmas time they will be "Look!! Just in time for Christmas!!! You should be excited!! oh, yeah, you are doing Christmas and are focusing on other things and not giving the gift of Robotech..."

Yeah, this hater is just wanting that fail.
Anyone else have a sick feeling they are going to mess up big?

It least I know Forar is nearby with some friends, I might get at least one game in a year or two from now...

Imo Talizer they already messed up big. I have had serious doubts to this ever becoming something that would spawn new interest in quite a few new players. This whole thing is driven by pure nostalgia. It would take massive effort on the part of passionate fans to make it more than that but in my opinion even that won't overcome the baggage that is the Robotech IP.

One only needs look at the state of the Macross fanbase (huge and growing) as opposed to Robotech (old and getting older) to see the writing on the wall for the Harmony Gold license.

 CaulynDarr wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

 CaulynDarr wrote:

I wrote this project off as a loss months ago. If there isn't any measurable progress to getting models on a boat by July, I think it will be time for the backers to start on some collective action to get compensation.

Litigation would take years - and they'd use 'pending litigation' as in excuse to delay further.

Litigation isn't the only option. An organized group of backers pushing for refunds my be the best first step.

And at some point after enough delays you have to admit that the release is never going to happen. Then what does it matter if litigation is going to push the vaporware back even further.

I'm trying to get that organized group of backers together. PM me if you're interested in helping out.