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2014/03/24 23:16:10
Subject: Re:Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Okay, before I start reading this one, is there a version 28 or beyond?
"Sometime you will be required to roll a D3. In that case roll a single D6 and then divide the result by 2 and round down."
I think you mean round up, otherwise a 3 is now a 1 and a 5 is now a 2, which makes for rather punishing d3s.
LOS: "while other times you may need to get in close and try to get the “unit’s eye view” so that the player can determine if there is anything in the way." :-(
In my experience, this is a path fraught with danger.
Like, I'm gonna stop for a second. I know you're not a professional game designer, so nitpiking feels like critiquing someone who put time and hard work into something out of the goodness of their heart. But you've said repeatedly that these rules are 'basically as good as, if not better than, the actual rules', which means they're getting critiqued like they're the actual rules.
And believe me, I'm going light here. When the full brunt of the community is directed at the rules when boxes start going out, people will be actively seeking to find the weakest links and break the game wide open.
Long story short, the LOS rules involve a lot of "what can actually be seen", which holds with it the expectation that people use perfect stand ins for what they want to play on a table. Some gamers will be using napkins for buildings and kleenex boxes for hills. A "true LOS" system is asking a lot of the terrain above and beyond what the miniatures ask of the player's disposable income.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/24 23:48:45
2014/03/24 23:53:37
Subject: Re:Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
So in other news, my bank has given me a refund on part of my Battlecry pledge. The other part was done on my buddy's credit card (hiding some gaming spending from the lovely wife ), and we're in the dispute process with them. We'll see if it sticks, but my bank did put my part of my pledge into my bank account this afternoon.
With that being said, I'm still totally up for organizing a movement to get Palladium to refund those who want it (and also just in case my bank or my buddy's changes its mind).
jacobus wrote: So in other news, my bank has given me a refund on part of my Battlecry pledge. The other part was done on my buddy's credit card (hiding some gaming spending from the lovely wife ), and we're in the dispute process with them. We'll see if it sticks, but my bank did put my part of my pledge into my bank account this afternoon.
With that being said, I'm still totally up for organizing a movement to get Palladium to refund those who want it (and also just in case my bank or my buddy's changes its mind).
Congrats! I'm incredibly tempted to sign up for that movement!
2014/03/25 00:04:28
Subject: Re:Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
jacobus wrote: So in other news, my bank has given me a refund on part of my Battlecry pledge. The other part was done on my buddy's credit card (hiding some gaming spending from the lovely wife ), and we're in the dispute process with them. We'll see if it sticks, but my bank did put my part of my pledge into my bank account this afternoon.
With that being said, I'm still totally up for organizing a movement to get Palladium to refund those who want it (and also just in case my bank or my buddy's changes its mind).
Congrats! I'm incredibly tempted to sign up for that movement!
Thanks. In previous incarnations I've run political campaigns, so this would be relatively easy for me. Plus I'm kinda ticked at their crappy attitude.
I love how Wayne spreads open the Nothern Gun book to show off the wrap around art. Having owned a good number of their RPG books, I'd wager that you'd be able to manage that feat maybe twice before the pages start popping out.
2014/03/25 04:15:33
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Man even the mods themselves are throwing the other companies under the bus. This is from FB.
"Palladium IS NOT the ONLY company involved in this project. You have Ninja Division,, ND sub-contractors, the manufacturers, Harmony Gold... blaming the lateness purely on Palladium is just laziness and asinine."
Good thing this guy doesn't officially work for PB and only mods their forum.
2014/03/25 05:45:07
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Talizvar wrote: A very practical friend told me once: I can work for a smart/evil boss, you can convince him through logic of his own self interest, I can work with a good/stupid man because I can get him to trust me BUT a stupid/evil person their is nothing redeemable there. In this parallel I wonder what PB is.
You've just given me a new mantra to live by. lol
Heh, sounds like a variation of the four classes of military officer.
2014/03/25 07:01:32
Subject: Re:Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
jacobus wrote: So in other news, my bank has given me a refund on part of my Battlecry pledge. The other part was done on my buddy's credit card (hiding some gaming spending from the lovely wife ), and we're in the dispute process with them. We'll see if it sticks, but my bank did put my part of my pledge into my bank account this afternoon.
With that being said, I'm still totally up for organizing a movement to get Palladium to refund those who want it (and also just in case my bank or my buddy's changes its mind).
jacobus wrote: So in other news, my bank has given me a refund on part of my Battlecry pledge. The other part was done on my buddy's credit card (hiding some gaming spending from the lovely wife ), and we're in the dispute process with them. We'll see if it sticks, but my bank did put my part of my pledge into my bank account this afternoon.
With that being said, I'm still totally up for organizing a movement to get Palladium to refund those who want it (and also just in case my bank or my buddy's changes its mind).
How did you manage that? VISA Chargeback?
Yeah, I'd be interesting to know what you said, what methods were used, etc.
Considering going to the bank in the morning, so any advice before dealing with them would be helpful.
2014/03/25 09:23:31
Subject: Re:Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Expanded on my post here about 3d printing, while critical I think I remained fairly objective
Click for instant wall o' text:
Spoiler:
On various forums I've seen a lot of comments about 3d printing and it's supposed "limits" being cited for why the previewed pieces look so bad. A lot of that is simply not true and it's coming from people who have little working knowledge about just what 3d printing is capable of.
This is not a dig against Palladium. I want people to be aware of what can actually be done and maybe get a more informed understanding of 3d prints.
First the prints that they show in the previews are done on an Objet machine which is a lower resolution machine that only offers a marginal print. Shapeways uses this same machine for several of their materials including the frosted and ultra frosted detail. A miniature the size of battletech/RTT runs about $30-$50 depending on how many parts there are and if the company does any finishing work.
It's built by layering very thin cross sections of ABS plastic on top of each other and binding them together with a wax base to hold the layer together. As the time the machine was released about 6-7 years ago it was a rather advanced machine but like a computer from 8 years ago, it's now very dated in terms of what it can offer. It typically has rough edges and needs a lot of sanding and clean up work by hand.
On many of the previews you can see build lines which are the edges of the layers, under magnification the plastic and wax looks sort of like the edges of a phone book which is why you can see tiny lines all over the surface. If you put an ink wash on the model it'll make it even more prominent. You can attempt to cover it with primer but in many cases it can make it look even worse.
It's a cost effective way of getting a print so that you can check measurements or sizing issues, but again it's an outdated machine and not a very good option for miniatures.
Newer machines offer much higher resolution and are incredibly apt for making miniatures. Some of the new printer have working tollerences that are actually superior to what milling machines are capable of. The downside of these prints is that they are several times more expensive then the objet prints. What might cost $50 as an Objet print might run $300 or more for the same model. The difference however is quite notable.
Prints for medical devices can run into the thousands but are capable of printing on an incredible level of accuracy, so when people spout off about the limit of 3d printing it's very inaccurate. The limits are far beyond the requirements ever be needed for miniatures. What "limits" printing is the budget that the customer is willing to put in place for their prints.
If you pay for a $50 shapeways objet style print it'll look like crap unless you put in a huge amount of time cleaning it by hand. Even then it's not very well suited for molding in silicone as the surface is porous and binds with silicone, and if used in traditional molding for white metal the heat melts away much of the wax binding.
If you step up a bit and use newer printers and material you can get models that are damn near perfect, which require no clean up work prior to molding and they are capable of enduring a vulcanized mold creation.
The models that I included pictures for were all created by 3d printing. The Tomahawk/Warhammer I had printed over 3 years ago and was done on the same machine that ND/PB printed their models with, the difference is that I spent nearly 30 hours cleaning it after it was printed, and I know what I'm doing as a modeler and sculptor.
The other model is in the exact same scale and was printed with a higher resolution printer. Not only are the details incredibly clear and razor straight but it was mold ready straight from the printer. It did cost a good chunk of change more but the quality is incredible.
So the point is that "limits of 3d printing" may have been a glass ceiling 4-5 years ago, but the current technology has vastly improved and "limits" are no longer the case.
It's not at a level where you can print such models as a retail product, but they are ideal for masters to be used resin and metal casting.
So please don't cite 3d limits as an excuse to why the preview models look bad or are ill fitting, they look bad and don't fit right because they were done on a cheap printer in order to keep costs down, there's a difference.
----------------------
I'll also note that having an inexperienced modeler putting together items to take to the premiere industry trade show... not the best of ideas.
Take a look at any of the preview items that GW's Forge World division puts up on display, they are immaculate. (Same with CMON, Wyrd, or any other miniatures company) You only get one chance to make first impressions, miniatures with obvious gaps or other defects aren't the way to put your best foot forwards.
If your own staff can't put items together at a beginners level how are the customers supposed to fare any better?
----------------
response to Alex
The preview pieces aren't a sample of final quality, so there's no reason to waste money on an expensive print. I'd also do the same if I were checking models before tooling. I am simply pointing out that the low quality of the test prints is not a result of 3d technology being inherently bad/limited as many have suggested.
However, those prints also shouldn't be making round at a convention showing what "mouth watering detail" there will be, as there's a good chance people will be turned off by gritty textures, visible build lines, or gaps. Would you go to a car lot that has lots of cars with misaligned body panels, wobbly hubcaps or bad paint and believe them if they say "this is really awesome quality... just wait until next week when our amazing Ferraris come rolling in".
You'd look at them like they are crazy and think they have no clue what quality is, that's why everyone puts out the best possible prototypes when pimping their wares at a tradeshow or when trying to reach a new audience, appearances of the miniatures and the games visuals are the most key element to selling to the crowds at a convention. If you don't have that hook the booth next to you probably will and that's where their money goes.
Your GW Rhino is also 10 times the size of a Robotech model, if you can barely handle assembling that what are you going to do with a model that's fraction of the size, yet has almost as many parts?
The current mock ups are not going to make for a user friendly end product and that is where many of the complaints are coming from. If you aren't an experienced modeler then the kits for this are going to be rather daunting once you actually sit down to build them.
When you are designing a product for the masses be it rpgs or models you need to know what your target audience is going to be and plan accordingly so that you can make the product accessible. It's not a case "dumbing it down" but rather understanding how your entry level customer will react and taking their skill set into consideration.
Take a look at battletech which is the most direct competitor, none of the models in their boxed et require any assembly, this allows the new customer to dip their toes into the wargaming market without concern for their modeling skills. As they get deeper into the miniatures side they can start using more complex and detailed miniatures, even then many of the metal models are still one piece.
At most they might have 6-10 parts which is why the game has maintained it's popularity. Wargamers aren't looking for scale models, they are looking for miniatures. Something that appears has slipped past PB, likely due to their unfamiliarity with wargamers.
I'm not saying they are producing a poor product at all, for a scale model it's perfectly fine, but what they are producing is a product with the wrong end user focus.
(and that's what the blow up from the last updates is stemming from)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/25 09:27:41
Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com
2014/03/25 09:24:15
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Pfft. That thread has nothing on the vitriol in the HG thread! HG and Robotech were supposed to be my games of 2013 and 2014 respectively but frankly neither has panned out in any satisfactory way. I still play X-wing semi-regularly (monthly) but I find myself drawn back to the safety net of 40k more and more. I even started painting some of my left over truescale space marines that I never got around to (although I don't think I'll succumb to buying more figs though from GW).
2014/03/25 13:54:40
Subject: Re:Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
paulson games wrote: Expanded on my post here about 3d printing, while critical I think I remained fairly objective
Click for instant wall o' text:
Spoiler:
On various forums I've seen a lot of comments about 3d printing and it's supposed "limits" being cited for why the previewed pieces look so bad. A lot of that is simply not true and it's coming from people who have little working knowledge about just what 3d printing is capable of.
This is not a dig against Palladium. I want people to be aware of what can actually be done and maybe get a more informed understanding of 3d prints.
First the prints that they show in the previews are done on an Objet machine which is a lower resolution machine that only offers a marginal print. Shapeways uses this same machine for several of their materials including the frosted and ultra frosted detail. A miniature the size of battletech/RTT runs about $30-$50 depending on how many parts there are and if the company does any finishing work.
It's built by layering very thin cross sections of ABS plastic on top of each other and binding them together with a wax base to hold the layer together. As the time the machine was released about 6-7 years ago it was a rather advanced machine but like a computer from 8 years ago, it's now very dated in terms of what it can offer. It typically has rough edges and needs a lot of sanding and clean up work by hand.
On many of the previews you can see build lines which are the edges of the layers, under magnification the plastic and wax looks sort of like the edges of a phone book which is why you can see tiny lines all over the surface. If you put an ink wash on the model it'll make it even more prominent. You can attempt to cover it with primer but in many cases it can make it look even worse.
It's a cost effective way of getting a print so that you can check measurements or sizing issues, but again it's an outdated machine and not a very good option for miniatures.
Newer machines offer much higher resolution and are incredibly apt for making miniatures. Some of the new printer have working tollerences that are actually superior to what milling machines are capable of. The downside of these prints is that they are several times more expensive then the objet prints. What might cost $50 as an Objet print might run $300 or more for the same model. The difference however is quite notable.
Prints for medical devices can run into the thousands but are capable of printing on an incredible level of accuracy, so when people spout off about the limit of 3d printing it's very inaccurate. The limits are far beyond the requirements ever be needed for miniatures. What "limits" printing is the budget that the customer is willing to put in place for their prints.
If you pay for a $50 shapeways objet style print it'll look like crap unless you put in a huge amount of time cleaning it by hand. Even then it's not very well suited for molding in silicone as the surface is porous and binds with silicone, and if used in traditional molding for white metal the heat melts away much of the wax binding.
If you step up a bit and use newer printers and material you can get models that are damn near perfect, which require no clean up work prior to molding and they are capable of enduring a vulcanized mold creation.
The models that I included pictures for were all created by 3d printing. The Tomahawk/Warhammer I had printed over 3 years ago and was done on the same machine that ND/PB printed their models with, the difference is that I spent nearly 30 hours cleaning it after it was printed, and I know what I'm doing as a modeler and sculptor.
The other model is in the exact same scale and was printed with a higher resolution printer. Not only are the details incredibly clear and razor straight but it was mold ready straight from the printer. It did cost a good chunk of change more but the quality is incredible.
So the point is that "limits of 3d printing" may have been a glass ceiling 4-5 years ago, but the current technology has vastly improved and "limits" are no longer the case.
It's not at a level where you can print such models as a retail product, but they are ideal for masters to be used resin and metal casting.
So please don't cite 3d limits as an excuse to why the preview models look bad or are ill fitting, they look bad and don't fit right because they were done on a cheap printer in order to keep costs down, there's a difference.
----------------------
I'll also note that having an inexperienced modeler putting together items to take to the premiere industry trade show... not the best of ideas.
Take a look at any of the preview items that GW's Forge World division puts up on display, they are immaculate. (Same with CMON, Wyrd, or any other miniatures company) You only get one chance to make first impressions, miniatures with obvious gaps or other defects aren't the way to put your best foot forwards.
If your own staff can't put items together at a beginners level how are the customers supposed to fare any better?
----------------
response to Alex
The preview pieces aren't a sample of final quality, so there's no reason to waste money on an expensive print. I'd also do the same if I were checking models before tooling. I am simply pointing out that the low quality of the test prints is not a result of 3d technology being inherently bad/limited as many have suggested.
However, those prints also shouldn't be making round at a convention showing what "mouth watering detail" there will be, as there's a good chance people will be turned off by gritty textures, visible build lines, or gaps. Would you go to a car lot that has lots of cars with misaligned body panels, wobbly hubcaps or bad paint and believe them if they say "this is really awesome quality... just wait until next week when our amazing Ferraris come rolling in".
You'd look at them like they are crazy and think they have no clue what quality is, that's why everyone puts out the best possible prototypes when pimping their wares at a tradeshow or when trying to reach a new audience, appearances of the miniatures and the games visuals are the most key element to selling to the crowds at a convention. If you don't have that hook the booth next to you probably will and that's where their money goes.
Your GW Rhino is also 10 times the size of a Robotech model, if you can barely handle assembling that what are you going to do with a model that's fraction of the size, yet has almost as many parts?
The current mock ups are not going to make for a user friendly end product and that is where many of the complaints are coming from. If you aren't an experienced modeler then the kits for this are going to be rather daunting once you actually sit down to build them.
When you are designing a product for the masses be it rpgs or models you need to know what your target audience is going to be and plan accordingly so that you can make the product accessible. It's not a case "dumbing it down" but rather understanding how your entry level customer will react and taking their skill set into consideration.
Take a look at battletech which is the most direct competitor, none of the models in their boxed et require any assembly, this allows the new customer to dip their toes into the wargaming market without concern for their modeling skills. As they get deeper into the miniatures side they can start using more complex and detailed miniatures, even then many of the metal models are still one piece.
At most they might have 6-10 parts which is why the game has maintained it's popularity. Wargamers aren't looking for scale models, they are looking for miniatures. Something that appears has slipped past PB, likely due to their unfamiliarity with wargamers.
I'm not saying they are producing a poor product at all, for a scale model it's perfectly fine, but what they are producing is a product with the wrong end user focus.
(and that's what the blow up from the last updates is stemming from)
I found it rather aggravating when Alex brought up your past dealings with the project, but decided to put his own negative spin on it (White knighting even when he claims to not be). Having heard it from you in much more detail; I can honestly say that there really isn't any bad blood between you and PB/ND's project. He just wanted to make a quick dig to try and discredit you (of course, I shouldn't expect anything else from the guy who compared a gnerl fighter to his undersized man parts ). But very insightful post again, love the inside information on all this stuff.
Dark Angels- 7500 pts Tau- 5000pts Chaos Daemons- 3000/2000 pts Dark Eldar(allies)- 1500 pts Zoom, Zoom, Iyaan.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: I just watched a battleship falling in love with a man.... yep. That's enough anime for the day.
2014/03/25 14:07:58
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
On Mike's unofficial Robotech International (or whatever it is) page, yes.
Alex Clarke has been a vocal part of the KS comments section, usually throwing around vulgarity as though it's some sort of gift he's granting us to share and enjoy. Comes across as an angry little man who sees there as being two views to the world; the wrong way and his way.
Got banned from making kickstarter comments a few weeks back for lashing out at other backers, not sure if that's ongoing or just lapsed and he hasn't been bothered to return (not that I care, with things this heated I can't see him adding fuel to the fire being in anyway helpful). Massive fan of Battletech (probably part of why he and Mike get along so well :-P ) and quick to dismiss any critique, complaints or concerns as 'entitled whining'.
His level of discourse is somewhere around youtube comments.
Just got reinstated, eh? Joy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/25 14:17:24
2014/03/25 14:51:01
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
jacobus wrote: So in other news, my bank has given me a refund on part of my Battlecry pledge. The other part was done on my buddy's credit card (hiding some gaming spending from the lovely wife ), and we're in the dispute process with them. We'll see if it sticks, but my bank did put my part of my pledge into my bank account this afternoon.
With that being said, I'm still totally up for organizing a movement to get Palladium to refund those who want it (and also just in case my bank or my buddy's changes its mind).
How did you manage that? VISA Chargeback?
Yeah, I'd be interesting to know what you said, what methods were used, etc.
Considering going to the bank in the morning, so any advice before dealing with them would be helpful.
I simply told my bank what was going on- they had promised us product in December, and now they're saying that it some of it may be to us by August. I had asked them for a refund, and they refused. They showed some finished test product, still didn't move their timeline forward, and the product was unsatisfactory. Asked for a refund again, based on delays and product quality, and never heard from them. Bank gave me my money back.
I'm not totally sure, but that might also mean that they may be going after PB to get the money. Again, not sure how that works, but if enough people start doing this, it might make it easier for folks to get actual refunds without having to go through a rigamarole.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/25 14:54:59
warboss wrote: Is there a way to file a complaint about an individual commenter on Kickstarter? Or is that only something the owner of a project can do?
I could swear there was a "report this user" option on people's profile page (when viewing other users), but can't find it for the life of me right now.
If all else fails, one could always just copy the profile name/link and send it to Kickstarter directly, but considering the trolling that does occasionally go on in these comments sections, I'm surprised it isn't easier to do.
Hell, I've suggested that they would do well to include an ignore feature, but they're not looking to implement such a thing.
2014/03/25 22:15:53
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
), and we're in the dispute process with them. We'll see if it sticks, but my bank did put my part of my pledge into my bank account this afternoon.
). But very insightful post again, love the inside information on all this stuff.
