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 HudsonD wrote:
Any news on the "group refund" thingy ?

Sorry, my wife was out of the country last week, and then to make things even easier for me and my toddler, we both got very sick. Now that we're both on the mend and the wife is home, I can get back to the insurgency.

that's a suspiciously Palladium style post, have we been infiltrated?

Heh, in a long list of customer relations fails, Palladium Books maintain form.

On Monday they announced there would be "a bunch of good news to report in the Thursday Weekly Update".

Apparently it's one or more of Palladium Fantasy Hardcover, Northern Gun 2 or Megaverse in Flames being released.

So they billed customers who had pre-ordered it weeks/months/years ago, without prior notification. Surprise!

At least one customer had the transaction fail, and thankfully wasn't charged an overdraft fee.

As someone else joked to me, "You guys consider billing us good news? We have differing definitions of the term."

Even when they try for a good surprise, they screw it up.

To quote one of my favorite villains, "[t]his is bad comedy."

Joyboozer wrote:
I'll play them, if it's possible.

The most accurate review of the RoboTech RPG rules.

Joyboozer wrote:
that's a suspiciously Palladium style post, have we been infiltrated?

No infiltration (Hail Hydra..cough), just a string of bad luck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For those interested in trying to work collectively to get a refund: Bare bones Facebook group started. If you want to be added, please shoot me a FB message with your DakkaDakka or KS handle. If you're going to troll or be abusive towards folks who are justifiably dissatisfied, please don't ask to join.

The Robotech Tactics Kickstarter Refund (We Hope) Group

Um...did I miss something on mybook or facespace? I've gone a few dozen comments back and something seems to have taken place between Jorel and Forar... or Jorel's account got hacked by the likes of Akashic.

Jorel seems to be punching Palladium with one hand while petting them lovingly with the other.
Really the way Jorel phrased what he said did make him sound like a dick, but there's little point attacking him about it.

That sounds about right.

Long story short: remember that big blowup on the update comments over the Spartan? Mike tried to get people to come up with constructive questions to pose to PB/ND? Then Jorel took it upon himself to run with that?

Apparently at the same time he was doing that, he was also posting the following on Wayne's (of Palladium fame) Facebook:

Not sure which thing your fed up with but I may have corralled the stampede of a Update comments page. I Turned it into an ask a constructive question page. Hope that helps. Not sure how long it will last. They have about 20 questions so far and most are actually being civil to one another. It is about to hit 1500 comments so I'd say it has some legs. Be good if they could actually come together and state what they'd like improved if they are havin such issues. At least it stops them from whatever they were doin previously.

So while he was busy constructively redirecting the outrage that was making Wayne so frustrated (omg!), he was busy sucking up / sucking off to them.

Basically, I'm tired of his crap. For the past year he'll rant against Palladium being late or whatever, but then in the next thread he'll wax about his massive collection (apparently everything they've made. In duplicate. Sometimes more like 6+ copies of a single book. Mull that over for a bit), and gets really feisty when someone really goes after them.

I've heard it described as being similar to domestic violence, and while that's certainly a topic I generally try not to make light of, it's hard to not note the parallels.

Oh, they don't mean it! They love him! And if he just showed them how much he loved them, everything would be great!

Looks like you guys have been having fun over here without me

Hopefully we'll see actual product someday, but in the meantime it's rather unfair for Palladium to expect sunshine and rainbows from us. I think they've grown so used to the lack of critique they get from their RPG customers (not that those customers don't complain, it's just that they've got their company forums rather well silenced). Customers that want actual delivery dates, not later this year (or next, or eventually), are a new experience for them.

And y'know, to be really fair, Kickstarters often have delays.

Big, successful ones often have even bigger delays.

But there hits a point where you're doubling the original projection and "oops" doesn't really cover it, and then you go back through the updates and the news releases and see that according to their math, 2 + 2 = Cow. It's not even in the right ballpark, let alone 'close' to what they've been feeding you for months.

Given that there's been a delay in answers to Mike's Community Questions, I'm gonna take a shot at it.

Mike1975 wrote:
1. Can we get a projected schedule, broken down by dependencies, to allow for product to be shipped to backers before GenCon?

We project GenCon. Everything's on schedule to make that goal. We're all super excited, and that's all you need for a projected timeline, right?

Mike1975 wrote:
2. How close is the project in regards to completion of the First Wave?

98% <- Seriously, I'd be on the border of rage and awe they'd make a joke like that, given their position, if they answered that.

Mike1975 wrote:
3. The seams in the figures that we’ve been shown appear significant. Is it possible to see versions of the figures that have not been assembled and then disassembled to see how the seams would appear coming off the sprue?

We'll post pictures when we get the test sprues, but they're for sure going to be better. We promise. With our excitement at this level of awesome, how can it not?

Mike1975 wrote:
4. The piece-count on these figures seems high, while the options for alternate poses seem limited. Is there anything that can be done to rectify this situation, both to reduce piece-count and increase poseability?

We're trying, but according to someone we won't question, the construction process won't allow for changes. This is the process needed to make the "mouth watering miniatures you're just dying to assemble". We know you can hardly wait!

Mike1975 wrote:
5. Is it possible to miss the GenCon release date, if necessary, to remake the figures with fewer pieces and less noticeable seam-lines?

We're on track to make GenCon (see Q1), and the figures can't be improved (see Q4). So, no. The project will release at GenCon, and it'll blow the roof off the place! We're so excited!

Mike1975 wrote:
6. What are the plans to support this game at launch? Will the Megaversal Abassador system be used to help spread and advertise the game? Are the other generations planned for a future release?

We'll be expanding the Ambassador program, as Ninja Games have been kicked to the curb/don't want anything to do with us. It'll be great! So exciting! The other generations are planned, for sure. They're almost all done, the Kickstarter will start week after next, on the anniversary of the first generation, and be ready to deliver December 2014. You trust us, right? We've learnt from our mistakes, promise. Aren't you excited? We know we are!

Mike1975 wrote:
7. Can more videos of actual game play be provided? We would like to see videos of games played by experienced testers and players who have only been given the rules with no guidance?

We'll work on that, we promise. But obviously, because of the way the legalities are structured, those gameplay videos will have to have all images and vocalization of game stats and any reference to actual rules redacted. So it'll be people moving figures without specification, and rolling dice without reference. But it'll be awesome!

Mike1975 wrote:
8. Is it possible to have a community organizer interact with us on Kickstarter to provide regular feedback, and not just in the form of updates?

I, Wayne will work harder, we swear. <- Followed by a 3 week unannounce absence, and a return that ignores this.

Mike1975 wrote:
9. What plans are in place to rebuild credibility and goodwill within the backer community?

We did an unannounced survey of hundreds of backers, and fewer than 1% of the customers are unhappy with the progress made. It also made something else very, very clear, that many of Palladium’s relentless critics are, not customers. Yeah, they paid into the game, but that was out of spite. We don't count them. Cause that'd skew the numbers away from dictator level approval ratings. And we don't want that. So there's no lost goodwill to rebuild. We know you want it so much it hurts!

Mike1975 wrote:
10. Can we please have detailed pictures of each figure as it gets completed? Both a detailed, assembled 360° set of pictures and also shots on the sprue?

When they're ready, you guys will be the first to see them! Well, second, cause Kevin will show them on the PB Updates. Well, third, because if a random stranger at a convention sees them, we'll let him post them instead. But you guys are still valued! You're not just a source of money to us! Aren't you excited!

If we get an answer, I don't expect much more than that. It was pointed out that I forgot judicious use of copyright, registered trademark and trademark symbols. Please feel free to mentally sprinkle/soak the above answers in those symbols as you read it.

If they actually started another KS while this one remained a gak-show, I'd have to applaud their audacity.

And then pledge $1 and crucify them in the comments.

@Morgan- How did you get their answers already?!? Great stuff, man. That is probably almost exactly what they will write for answers...if they ever answer the questions.

Man, Mike's facebook page is turning into a joke. Those 2 white-knight trolls are making it almost unbearable to go and check what is posted. Can't even joke about PB/ND without them flying off the handle.

There's always the block option

Gah! Stupid thing. Double post, then try to correct, and deletes the good post and arglebargle guddamit!

I'll try and reconstruct.

 Ironwill13791 wrote:
@Morgan- How did you get their answers already?!? Great stuff, man. That is probably almost exactly what they will write for answers...if they ever answer the questions.

Most of the answers I gave are actually from quotes taken only marginally out of context. I got Forar to hunt down the Weekly Update from June 7th for Question 9, and I can't remember exactly where the dismissal of seeing the rules prior to release that formed the answer to Question 7. But a lot of the jazzhands comes from KS Updates 125 and 128. Lines like

Think about why you are so frustrated and perhaps even angry about the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ delays. It’s because you want it so badly you can’t stand it. You want it now! Us too! That’s why we have decided to ship in two waves, so you can get enough to start building and painting your armies, learning the rules and PLAY as soon as possible!

just deserve mockery.

I love how I'm always the bad guy, there's times where I'm clearly being sarcastic and making fun of PB, but even when I'm providing unbiased explanations or comments I'm somehow always the guy who's bitter and resentful troll just because he got passed over by PB. (which isn't the case)

You can like a product but dislike the people who make it and criticize their decisions, case and point GW. Love the game setting and models even like quite a few of the staff, but the corporate side is a complete bunch of douche nozzels. Companies just like individuals are complicated entities, you can have a mix of emotions and reasoning towards them it's not just a "with us or against us" mentality.

Less than 1% unhappy, how many people did they include in the survey? 10? of the most supportive?

Well, if they're good at math; more than 100.

Which means we've hit two problems. First; they're not good at math (their rpg mechanics back me up on this), and secondly, I have doubts of their ability to get 100 fans in the same place.

I have a feeling that they just wandered around at a local mall asking random people what they thought of robotech and palladium and every "wtf are you talking about" response was considered to be a customer satisfied result.

Either that or they walked around the warehouse on payday repeatedly asking their employees are you happy with how things are going? One guy likely Alex answered umm maybe... then Kevin said "yes, yes I am happy " and he's always the 99% of every opinion Paladium needs.

 stanman wrote:
I have a feeling that they just wandered around at a local mall asking random people what they thought of robotech and palladium and every "wtf are you talking about" response was considered to be a customer satisfied result.

Either that or they walked around the warehouse on payday repeatedly asking their employees are you happy with how things are going? One guy likely Alex answered umm maybe... then Kevin said "yes, yes I am happy " and he's always the 99% of every opinion Paladium needs.

They might as well have...

I have spent the last six weeks doing a lot of market research. It started at the Palladium Open House and intensified the last two weeks. My calls to Ultimate Insiders, Insider Benefactors and freelancers/friends contributed to it.

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=607:palladium-booksr-weekly-update-june-7-2012&catid=52:weekly-updates&Itemid=183

The owner of the company SECRETLY and personally approached people who paid to attend his company specific convention (in other words, people who paid hundreds of dollars in travel/lodging/etc to see him)... and then followed that up with people who crowdfunded a single book for hundreds of dollars to get their names into it. Unfortunately for him, enough of the people who attended the convention piped up in the forums to totally debunk the 1% result (the 5 or 6 people out of the 100 or so likely total "polled" who said they weren't satisfied and weren't even asked anything remotely similar). If you went to the company specific convention and the owner of the company (who can throw you out) comes up to you personally and asked you in general (remember... he SECRETLY polled them!) if you were having fun and satisfied, you basically were counted in the 99%. That is the type of critical feedback he wants from fans and employees. It's a good thing he's surrounded by folks that don't blow sunshine up his butt.

I have got to move to Westland MI, tis' truly a magic land full of carefree sunshine, rainbows, and unicorns.

 warboss wrote:
The owner of the company SECRETLY and personally approached people who paid to attend his company specific convention (in other words, people who paid hundreds of dollars in travel/lodging/etc to see him)... and then followed that up with people who crowdfunded a single book for hundreds of dollars to get their names into it. Unfortunately for him, enough of the people who attended the convention piped up in the forums to totally debunk the 1% result (the 5 or 6 people out of the 100 or so likely total "polled" who said they weren't satisfied and weren't even asked anything remotely similar). If you went to the company specific convention and the owner of the company (who can throw you out) comes up to you personally and asked you in general (remember... he SECRETLY polled them!) if you were having fun and satisfied, you basically were counted in the 99%. That is the type of critical feedback he wants from fans and employees. It's a good thing he's surrounded by folks that don't blow sunshine up his butt.

Yeah. Whenever you get dictator level approval ratings, you need to question the sample size, the sample diversity, or the method of calculation. From the look of it, PB failed 3 for 3 there.

You typically can't get 90% of any significantly diverse people to agree on pretty much anything. If you're getting over 90%, you need to relook at your numbers.

I especially found the "People who don't like our product don't count" argle garble. Very enlightening about how Kevin views things.

As noted previously, I jointly backed with 2 other guys. One of them has basically just forgotten the project. The other remains annoyed about the delays, but hearing about the shenanigans of the last month or so, he's been pondering a road trip out to Michigan to express his displeasure with how the backers are being treated.

They've got two looming opportunities to regain some ground (or at least staunch some of the bleeding); the little 'newsletter' / "big news" they're supposedly putting up tonight, and the update that is now a week overdue.

Silence seems to be serving them well for now, but it won't be long before it begins to annoy people again, especially since every day that ticks by without the expected huge information coming by weakens their "it's coming for Gencon, you can totally trust us, guy!" stance.

.... oh god, now I'm going to read their updates like Saddam Hussain in South Park. I can't un-hear it in my head.

Alright, I figured out how and I blocked those clowns on Facebook.

I hope the update does have some meat to it. Right now, you backers need REAL information and the whats what. This game seems to be falling out of favor with more and more people as they continue to attempt to *Jazz-hands* through it.

 Forar wrote:
.... oh god, now I'm going to read their updates like Saddam Hussain in South Park. I can't un-hear it in my head.

I'm sticking with Professor Farnsworth personally.

On a related note, I secretly observed the midweek session where Kevin goes around the office eliciting opinions on the week's progress...

Update on their website:

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=717%3Apalladium-booksr-weekly-update-april-10-2014&catid=52%3Aweekly-updates&Itemid=183



When you scroll down to the Robotech Tactics part it says: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ – Game Description – Coming Spring 2014


"Spring 2014" I laughed so hard I nearly pissed myself. Even if they are cutting final molds today, do they really think they'll get stuff done and shipped from China in the next 30-45 days?

That's palladium time which much like dog years needs to be multiplied by another number. Unlike dog years with their simple arithmetic multiple of 7, palladium has a d100 chart of random number multiples that you need to roll for. Just hope you don't get a 73-84 because there is an unfixed typo there telling you to multiply by ^.

Well, their official target has been "June, maybe May" for a while, but in a recent comment during the Spartan argument, someone let slip that it was "July, maybe June". "Spring 2014" has been on that page for like 3-6 months now, I think they just haven't updated it yet.

And if one is pedantic, "spring" actually ends in late June, roughly 73 days or so from now.

"July", if we go all the way to the end of the month, adds another 40 days.

Not that 113 days or less is terribly realistic either, but at least it's (slightly) less of a joke than 30-45.

But to be clear, I'm just looking at this from a purely detached standpoint. In actual terms of what I believe, I think we'll have another "oops, going to backslide more!" note in the near future.

Even if things go perfectly, punching out a couple hundred thousand sprues and shipping them across an ocean is probably unlikely in that 3-4 month timeframe, let alone even starting to sort and mail boxes before Gencon eats up, like, an entire month.

And with the latest update, Morgan unseats the Great Carnac...