Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Azazelx wrote:
Gosh, I'm not entirely sure that I trust "a lot of" "fan-friend-volunteers" to ship 5300 packages without massive amounts of feth-ups.

Could be interesting, Azazelx. It's already going to cost them a metric crapload (that's 1.0936 Imperial craploads) to ship internationally. Doing that twice, because of splitting the waves makes it excessive. Shipping it thrice, because some unpaid intern fan significantly screwed up the order, could be several magnitudes of cluster-fethery.

Whelp, no update yet (and I'm not optimistic at this rate), but there has been the usual weekly newsletter.

It goes on for, no exaggeration, 2 pages about how awesome it is that they're hitting their 33rd anniversary, and how lucky Kevin is, and even remembers to say THANK YOU to the fans.

Oh, and then this:

UPDATE: Everything Else

Robotech® RPG Tactics™, other new releases, the 2015 Palladium Open House (May 14-17, 2015), and other things are all moving forward. I’ll have more details on all fronts in next week’s update.

Oh, well then, glad to hear so much has happened in the last 8 days that it can be summed up as "we'll get back to you in a week".

God I'm beginning to hate PB. I was a fan, but then I participated in their ks and now I'm hating PB. It's sad.

PB has convinced me that purchasing more product down the line probably isn't necessary.

Bob the Accountant wrote:
PB has convinced me that purchasing more product down the line probably isn't necessary.

Same here. About the only thing I'd consider buying that I missed in my pledge would be a box of zentraedi infantry but frankly I don't see myself buying more than that.

So, a week and a half since the last update. Not that I'm terribly surprised, and 'laying low' might seem to be in their best interest from some perspectives, I'm sure, but man, if we're to accept that they're on the cusp of starting to punch plastic out now, the next update had better contain pics of, like, 11 out of the 11 remaining test sprues they need to have, along with a giant thumbs up and novelty "GO START MAKING THEM!" sign in the background.

102 days until the end of July (if we're to assume the worst about the 'new July target' that hasn't even been officially stated).

102 days to sign off on 12 molds, punch out nearly half a million models.

Napkin math; roughly 6500 Battle Cries (minus however many weren't backed, plus however many extra were added on during the pledge manager) x 69 models = 448,500 figures, plus roughly 200 core box only backers, 34 models per box, 6800 more, meaning wave one is around 455,000 figures. Assuming 3 figures per sprue (that seems to at least have been the plan, given what we've been told), that's over 150,000 sprues.

Now, I have no idea how long it takes to punch these things out, but even assuming 10 seconds per sprue, that's over 17 days of sprue punching, assuming zero down time (somehow they change the molds out in less than 10 seconds without missing a beat), no shut downs, no maintenance, and no other concerns.

But there will be mold change outs, there will probably be maintenance, and unless someone more familiar with these things wishes to enlighten me, I'm guessing it's more than 10 seconds for a sprue this size. It is China though, so I am assuming 24/7 production. Edit: though if they made more than 1 mold and ran both (or more) at the same time, or one mold punched out more than one sprue at a time, it could cut that time down significantly, but given their statements about the costs of the molds, I'm not optimistic for either, as presumably 2 molds or larger molds for multiple sprues (if they can even do that?) would be more expensive).

3 weeks for production? 4? Plus a month to cross the ocean? That leaves barely a month and a half to cover any delays, any hold ups, any customs time, loading issues (this assumes the ship leaves the second they load up, I'm told it can sit around for days or weeks finishing off the cargo haul), and that getting the cargo unloaded and hauled up to Michigan isn't hit with delays either.

Yeahhhhh, good luck with that.

So, who wants to start a pool on when they push Backer delivery to September? And maybe another for when they casually slip into a newsletter that there'll be boxes available at Gencon (pointedly ignoring the backers entirely, of course)?

You make the assumption that there is only one sprue pressed at a time, and one machine doing it. (Not saying they will make it, but odds are they will have more then one machine and possibly lay out more then one set per press) (missed your edit, I'm going to assume production would be more then one machine... Though)

Brother Weasel wrote:
You make the assumption that there is only one sprue pressed at a time, and one machine doing it. (Not saying they will make it, but odds are they will have more then one machine and possibly lay out more then one set per press) (missed your edit, I'm going to assume production would be more then one machine... Though)

Yeah, it probably will. But even if you only take the Regult Battle Pods into account, that's 150,000 models, if you go three per sprue*, that's still 50,000 cycles. ABS at about the thickness they're using, takes IIRC 17-24 seconds to "set" (that's going from a liquid to a non-malleable solid (else it distorts). I ballparked the entire process down to 30 seconds per press, consisting of the compression, injection, setting, and ejection, but that could be well short.

* And that's assuming three. The size of the sprue used for the Arthur Pods would only fit two Regults. If they keep a uniform sprue size (it makes for ease of setting up/switching molds), then add 50% more cycles.

So even with multiple machines, unless they're running at least 4, it'll add to the delay. And even if they run 4, unless they're going to duplicate the Regult mold (unlikely, given it's redundancy and PB's reputed pennypinching ways), it'll still take at least 18 days (27 if it's twofer), not accounting for maintenance, or other potential problems. I know from my work with metals, the machine needs to be flushed regularly, but I'm not familiar with plastics and their daily operations. Maybe it'll be different, and things will be "coming up Milhouse", but with PB, it seems Murphy is a bigger presence.

Thanks for sharing. So, given the largest run seems to be what will be setting the pace (as they seem to account for about a third of the figures, if they have at least 3-4 machines running, they're rapidly dwindling down to the "gak or get off the pot" point of no return on that "Gencon Suicide Pact".

I'm sure PB will manage to have production demo models for Gencon, all they need is a few sprue of each mold for assembly and painting for Gencon.

I'm still anticipating my KS items won't be in my hands until Spring 2015.

Maybe they can get Wayne to paint the models, halfway strip them down, and then repaint them with a second layer of thick paint.

My favourite running gag in the comments section is how many people seem to think GW space marines are, like, 20-25 pieces each, and that this belief somehow makes RRT's apparent split sensible.

Hey guys, are Space Marines 20+ pieces? 'Cause I could swear some of y'all said they were more like 6-8, plus some WYSIWYG bling depending on what one wanted to build them into.

Though I think Kendachi and I should pursue this book idea. Maybe fit them in around the Kickstarter Warboss and I are apparently going to work on.

From the pictures posted earlier in this thread, a terminator is the best fit but if they want to compare them to a stock marine so be it. A normal marine is:

Head
Two Torso halves
Legs
Two arms
Backpack
Two Shoulder pads
One Weapon

10 pieces for a typical marine. Some have more (like Devastators with bigger multipart guns and backpacks that are as big as the marine) whereas some have less (like assault marines with their weapons modelled onto the arms instead of separate). You have the option of adding bling like pouches, ribbons, and walkmans to the marine but the above 10 pieces is what makes a marine a marine. The starter set versions are only 2-3 pieces each and have more varied poses than just limb swing in one plane.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do find the comments about Kevin S farting rainbows to be unrealistic over in the kickstarter comments. Everyone knows you need sunshine to make a rainbow and he has unequivocably stated that no sunshine is blown up his butt.

Brother Weasel wrote:
You make the assumption that there is only one sprue pressed at a time, and one machine doing it. (Not saying they will make it, but odds are they will have more then one machine and possibly lay out more then one set per press) (missed your edit, I'm going to assume production would be more then one machine... Though)

Read my mind to that point: They are cheap so do not assume more than one model per mold, one mold per model. Heaven help us if they get premature tool wear or run into short-shot issues.<edit> Or the dreaded ejection pins gooped up!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:
From the pictures posted earlier in this thread, a terminator is the best fit but if they want to compare them to a stock marine so be it. A normal marine is:
Head
Two Torso halves
Legs
Two arms
Backpack
Two Shoulder pads
One Weapon
10 pieces for a typical marine. Some have more (like Devastators with bigger multipart guns and backpacks that are as big as the marine) whereas some have less (like assault marines with their weapons modelled onto the arms instead of separate). You have the option of adding bling like pouches, ribbons, and walkmans to the marine but the above 10 pieces is what makes a marine a marine. The starter set versions are only 2-3 pieces each and have more varied poses than just limb swing in one plane.<snip>

Do not forget the base for the marine then as you say ammo pouches or a pistol, knife or grenades can be added but a plain marine looks fine. Oddly enough, a basic Eldar Guardian is about the same number of parts.

I can honestly say I have never seen any front face of their soldiers or vehicles with a parting line down the middle. Imagine that, I found something good to say about GW, Huh PB really is providing a new standard to me and it is not a good one.

I have said before, I am a modeler before painter or anything else so I do not mind lots of parts but killing off all those mold lines right in the primary viewing surfaces of the models will be a challenge to make it look good and not show up after paint. I have found that is also becomes completely unforgiving if there is any distortion in the fit: modeling putty will be the added step.

Forget the Mecha primary surface, the Gnerl fighter is split right down the middle of the canopy.

On a model that's about 40% canopy.

Let's pretend the halves line up perfectly, and there's no seam... there will *still* be a line right down the middle that will be plain as day.

 Talizvar wrote:
I can honestly say I have never seen any front face of their soldiers or vehicles with a parting line down the middle. Imagine that, I found something good to say about GW, Huh PB really is providing a new standard to me and it is not a good one.

Heh. When Palladium and their flunkies talk about "taking on GW", I expected it to mean by being better, not worse, than GW. I never expected it'd be in terms of low standards of communication, fan hate, component assembly, or price.

The latter may come as a bit of a WTF, but I just checked GW Terminators (the closest equivalent), and they're 5 for $50. Destroids are 4 for $33. That's not a huge difference, in the grand scheme of things. And as much as people rag on GW for their prices, and a some have mentioned assembly issues (the giant Goblin Spider thing was a PITA to assemble, apparently) I've heard very little complaint about actual quality. And from the images, the Terminators are truly multi-pose. Whereas the Robotech Spartan... nuff said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TalonZahn wrote:
Forget the Mecha primary surface, the Gnerl fighter is split right down the middle of the canopy.

On a model that's about 40% canopy.

Let's pretend the halves line up perfectly, and there's no seam... there will *still* be a line right down the middle that will be plain as day.

Yeah, I saw that one in the GAMA pictures and I just read the subtext as "You think the seams on the Spartan are badly located? That's not a seam. THIS is a seam", as spoken in a Crocodile Dundee accent, and with Wayne holding the figure up with one hand, flipping the bird with the other.

wufai wrote:
I'm sure PB will manage to have production demo models for Gencon, all they need is a few sprue of each mold for assembly and painting for Gencon.

I'm still anticipating my KS items won't be in my hands until Spring 2015.

They can keep using the same 3D printed prototypes for Gencon, that's not in question.

What's in question is the 'we WILL have RRT product for sale at Gencon, and not just LE exclusives' that they've been quite firm about.

I won't at all be surprised by further delays, but I'm not quite so forgiving of the either lies or incompetence (and it takes impressive mental gymnastics for it to avoid being at least one, if not both) that have led to where we are now.

We'll deliver as promised, as soon as we can. Wave One will deliver in June or July, as we've said before. Wave Two by the end of the year, hopefully well before.

Note: "as we've said before" is a flat out lie. The original time line was "June, maybe May" previous to that statement in March during 'the Zero situation" while "Spartangate" was raging.

Before the PM closed on this I picked up an extra Roy Fokker for my brother. I talked to him this morning and he asked if I had it yet. It took a few minutes to explain to him why I was laughing.

In semi related news, I read today (and checked myself to be sure) that CMON took responsibility for the Relic Knights delay in the comments of the most recent Wrath of Kings update.

Lessons for a certain book company perhaps.

For those who don't feel like looking:

Creator CoolMiniOrNot

@Jason McFarland We found out today and posted the update today. Production delays are not something to hide from. It is what it is. In fact, the sooner we find out and let our backers know, the better it is. What would delay the inevitable do? I know you are disappointed, so are we, but everything within our control was going to plan until we hear from the factory in regards to the additional kickstarter addons.

@TSgt Keats We thank you for your support, but at the end of the day, we are not here to lay blame to our partners. We are the publisher and we ran the kickstarter, so we are responsible for the delivery. Delays happen, especially with complicated big projects that end up doubling or tripling the initial offerings of the start of the campaign. We will do our absolute best to minimize the delay while not compromising on the quality.

-David

From the general comments: saying this had to hurt a bit:

Creator CoolMiniOrNot

@ KB9YEN We will have demos and intro events at Gen Con, but no products for sale until we deliver the project.
-David

Now, if we could just get Palladium to reach the lofty standards set by C'MON we would... Bwhahahahahahahaha!

I could not get that one out with a straight face.


I just discovered that Raging Hero's TGG hasn't even a pledge manager yet.

I thought we were doing poorly with Palladium.

I guess we know what it would be like if Kevin was French!

Well, at least they're taking the high road this time. I personally heard that ND was to blame from an admittedly biased source but they are right in that ultimately they, as the "boss", are responsible just like Palladium is for anything those they hire screw up on. Then add in palladium's personal corporate history of screw ups and we have the situation we're in today. I sincerely doubt Palladium will take the high road and not sell full boxes before shipping out pledges.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bob the Accountant wrote:
Before the PM closed on this I picked up an extra Roy Fokker for my brother. I talked to him this morning and he asked if I had it yet. It took a few minutes to explain to him why I was laughing.

Don't forget to tell him that if he is unhappy that he is just a vocal minority and that the vast majority of people don't agree with him. Palladium (secretly) asked everyone.

As a contrast though, the currently latest update for SDE from Soda Pop/Ninja Division includes a list of each item in the KS and where it is in terms of progress. So, at least they seem to understand the concept of "information flow" as relates to backers. Now, as we know from this one, it could simply all be lies about where they are in the process, but there's at least an attempt at transparent communication from the ND side of things.

 Kendachi wrote:
I just discovered that Raging Hero's TGG hasn't even a pledge manager yet.

I thought we were doing poorly with Palladium.

Waitwhat?

Really?

Hell, Shadows of Brimstone still doesn't have a pledge manager up, and they finished their campaign late November 2013. And here I thought that was getting a bit silly. (note; I still think it's a bit silly, how long can it really take to set that gak up?) I'm aware of there being extenuating circumstances, but there hits a point where you just need to deliver on an aspect.

As for SDE, damn, that's a solid update. Some AvP updates I glanced through had a nice 'status/timeline' graph similar to ones that I've seen in project management situations here at work, really smooth way to show what is done, what is being worked on, how far along it is, and whats next on the list (and how long that should take).

Better yet(?), the Raging Heroes kickstarter will turn one soon.

 Kendachi wrote:
Now, if we could just get Palladium to reach the lofty standards set by C'MON we would...

Oh god.

After Sedition Wars... let's just say I'm afraid of PB if CMON does better.

And yeah - boy am I glad I avoided Raging Heroes.

Forar.. stretch goal for our kickstarter... T-Shirt with a grown man bending over with a rainbow shooting out of his butt and a pony riding it. Just sayin'....

Works for me. We should have it before the challenge coin, but after the stickers. The t-shirt message suggestions will have to be higher point tiers with limited slots, as there are only so many days, and changing shirts every hour wouldn't do any of them justice.

 warboss wrote:
Forar.. stretch goal for our kickstarter... T-Shirt with a grown man bending over with a rainbow shooting out of his butt and a pony riding it. Just sayin'....

Your next SG should be to upgrade that pony to a Unicorn, with it's own rainbow flowing from the aft end!

Guys, lets not give him any more credit.

I mean, farting rainbows is one thing, farting rainbows with unicorns farting their own rainbows is a totally different thing.

Totally.