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Morgan, nobody ever promised a completely seperate skirmish set of rules, they did promise you could play the game at a skirmish level with small numbers of units. There is a difference.

I did warn what the skirmish rules entailed a long time ago.

That does not mean that real skirmish rules will never be made by PB or fans though.




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I also held out hope that they would be changed based on my input, they were not.

Mike, I'm sorry to have to tell you this but no one cares about fan rules. They don't care about my Heavy Gear fan rules and they don't and won't care about your Robotech ones unless they become official. If fans rules were the savior of piss poor rules and planning on the part of gaming companies, Palladium would be the top manufacturer in the industry as everyone playing their games needs to make their own. The only thing poorly thought out, written, barely edited and tunnel vision tested rules accomplish is to dig the first few few of the game's grave. No amount of fan house ruling fixes that.

It is just odd that they found the time to bolt on the largely unnecessary and unwanted detailed close combat rules but decided to skimp on the skirmish rules. I mean... who wants to recreate little known battles with two bit characters like Vermillion squadron's Rick, Max, and Ben when you can instead fight out all those kung fu wire action close combat scenes instead! Wait...huh?

Well then nobody will care about Tactics Skirmish rules unless they have a few FAQ's or updates TBH.

Mike1975 wrote:
Morgan, nobody ever promised a completely seperate skirmish set of rules, they did promise you could play the game at a skirmish level with small numbers of units. There is a difference.

They promised it would be scaleable. You can argue as long as you want that that's TECHNICALLY possible. But don't try to convince people that's what was being promised.

If they release MPA, FPA, and all remaining Wave 2 models as ABS plastic meeples* with the name stamped on the face, cut in half at the waist, cause "multiposable", you would be OK with that? Because TECHNICALLY, they're providing the miniatures they promised. Doesn't matter that it's not what was stated or implied.

* I was going to use cardboard cutouts, but they did promise multipart, multipose, ABS plastic miniatures. But then again, their promises aren't worth squat either.

They say they are only going to sell a few hundred copies. But who want o bet that if they sell out they will have more trucked in. Its only a 4 hour drive after all.

I wonder if this is a quick way for them to rise some funds. I really wonder if they can afford to ship out 5200 packages. Thats a lot of $$ and knowing there business skills im sure they didnt put any aside for that.

Morgan, I'd say find me the exact wording of when they say that skirmish rules would be made available and we could argue semantics. Again, I'm not happy with the BS Skirmish rules beccause they are pretty much a cop out, but they did put something in there. I suggested a number of changes, and was ignored politely. There is nothing more I could do at this point. I did share what the skirmish rules were a long time ago.

Stormcrow77, you forgot to add the part where they do it only because the fans wanted them to and they're only trying to make their fans happy! Of course, they'll leave out the part where the fans are Galactus Kid and NMI who also happen to be under their employ.

Mike1975 wrote:
Morgan, I'd say find me the exact wording of when they say that skirmish rules would be made available and we could argue semantics. Again, I'm not happy with the BS Skirmish rules beccause they are pretty much a cop out, but they did put something in there. I suggested a number of changes, and was ignored politely. There is nothing more I could do at this point. I did share what the skirmish rules were a long time ago.

Not sure what your argument is there. Are you saying that at a hypothetical time in the future, they can release "real" skirmish rules, and that'd abrogate the issue? Again, you're using a technical point, when that's not what was implied by the promises made.

While it's not as cut and dried as I'd like, from the RRT Boxed Game page on PB's Webstore.
"Scalable from small squad skirmishes to mass battles. Can accommodate two to several players."

Again, by using your argument, if they shipped out the boxed sets without Valkyries, as long as they intend to ship out the Valkyries at some later date, at their discretion, you'ld be OK with that?

I understand you think it's unacceptableI understand you tried to fix it. I understand you shared this at the time. My point is, why are you still trying to defend it? The rules DO NOT EXIST for all intents and purposes, besides the most blatant cover-their-asses legalistic bullshyte standards. To pretend that what's there counts, in any meaningful way, is just wrong.

Again, if you take the scaleable, it it just that, we just don't like the rules for the small squad skirmishes side of things. Your argument with the Valkyries is not what I'm talking about here. We were promised scaleability, not an entire different rules set, we got it, although it is not what any of us hoped it would be. It's like buying into Heavy Gear, opening the rules and saying yuk. I just hope the Mekton KS rules turn out well. I might try those when I get the book.


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Also, stating that we got what they said we would and not what we expected is not defending them in any way.

I suspect that none of this will be done in time for a cargo boat to get it to the USA, then to palladium by road, then to Gencon

they might (just) manage to get some stock across on a plane, but I doubt it will be much

so you'll have a few backers (of the smaller pledges) sent out and there will be 50-100 boxes at their stand at Gencon which will be dribbled out across the weekend

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I suspect that none of this will be done in time for a cargo boat to get it to the USA, then to palladium by road, then to Gencon

they might (just) manage to get some stock across on a plane, but I doubt it will be much

so you'll have a few backers (of the smaller pledges) sent out and there will be 50-100 boxes at their stand at Gencon which will be dribbled out across the weekend

I think you are likely right, in that case they just shot themselves in the foot, BIG TIME

Yeah, agreed.

The backlash will NOT be worth a handful of sales at Gencon.

Especially if the 'quality' of the miniatures isn't quite as...



...as some believe.

I think the Spartan, Tomahawk and possibly the Gnerl seams are the only major problems. I have my fingers crossed for when we have actual product in hand. They did improve after Spartangate. We can only hope there is a bit more improvement to be seen.

Mike1975 wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I suspect that none of this will be done in time for a cargo boat to get it to the USA, then to palladium by road, then to Gencon

they might (just) manage to get some stock across on a plane, but I doubt it will be much

so you'll have a few backers (of the smaller pledges) sent out and there will be 50-100 boxes at their stand at Gencon which will be dribbled out across the weekend

I think you are likely right, in that case they just shot themselves in the foot, BIG TIME

Again. You forgot that word at the end of the sentance. They have to have amputated above the knee by this point as the first few toes were lost on day 2 post KS with the "maybe October!" delivery date revision.

Mike1975 wrote:

I also held out hope that they would be changed based on my input, they were not.

Mike? Did they change anything based on "your" input?

Serious question.

 Alpharius wrote:
Yeah, agreed.

The backlash will NOT be worth a handful of sales at Gencon.

Especially if the 'quality' of the miniatures isn't quite as...



...as some believe.

I know that is supposed to be mouth watering but I can't help but think she just dipped her lips in a tub of 1980's Ghostbuster Slimer toy goo.

 Kendachi wrote:

Mike1975 wrote:

I also held out hope that they would be changed based on my input, they were not.

Mike? Did they change anything based on "your" input?

Serious question.

They made a few minor changes and reworded some rules for clarification but nothing major. I wanted a whole new Character Creation System for conversion from RPG characters and to change the HTH rules. I also had a list of some small additions like being able to fire some weapons in melee like the torso cannons on the Tomahawk for the cost of a command point but about 80-90% of what I had was not implemented. They did take down like 40 typos that I gave them so those should have been changed. I emailed them those typos in March. I had to call in person to remind them of the typos as I saw they had not all been fixed a month ago.


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Mixed bag at best


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When the rules come out I will post my changes

Jesus christ, what is everyone bitching about now? This thread is exasperating, its like everyone whos pledged to this kickstarter feels entitled to something other than the product you pledged for. You were promised plastic multipart miniatures and a set of rules to use them with, and that is exactly what you are getting. Both rules and model development at the time was in a premature enough state that getting lemons was a distinct possibility, you inherently accepted that risk by giving them your money. If you're unhappy with what you're receiving, deal with, as the saying goes "Buyer beware".

Personally, I'm pretty pleased with what I'm seeing. Everything could always be better, but considering how my $300-400 initial investment on this kickstarter isprobably worth closer to $500 or $600 in retail, I can't complain.

Gauntlet thrown, or grenade. (Ducking behind desk)

chaos0xomega wrote:
Jesus christ, what is everyone bitching about now? This thread is exasperating, its like everyone whos pledged to this kickstarter feels entitled to something other than the product you pledged for. You were promised plastic multipart miniatures and a set of rules to use them with, and that is exactly what you are getting. Both rules and model development at the time was in a premature enough state that getting lemons was a distinct possibility, you inherently accepted that risk by giving them your money. If you're unhappy with what you're receiving, deal with, as the saying goes "Buyer beware".

Personally, I'm pretty pleased with what I'm seeing. Everything could always be better, but considering how my $300-400 initial investment on this kickstarter isprobably worth closer to $500 or $600 in retail, I can't complain.

You might try reading the thread. They're selling product before shipping it to backers. I'll be sure to pick up a box to show everyone how awesome and mouthwatering the models are while you wait another month to get yours.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Jesus christ, what is everyone bitching about now? This thread is exasperating, its like everyone whos pledged to this kickstarter feels entitled to something other than the product you pledged for. You were promised plastic multipart miniatures and a set of rules to use them with, and that is exactly what you are getting. Both rules and model development at the time was in a premature enough state that getting lemons was a distinct possibility, you inherently accepted that risk by giving them your money. If you're unhappy with what you're receiving, deal with, as the saying goes "Buyer beware".

Personally, I'm pretty pleased with what I'm seeing. Everything could always be better, but considering how my $300-400 initial investment on this kickstarter isprobably worth closer to $500 or $600 in retail, I can't complain.

You much try reading the thread. They're selling product before shipping it to backers. I'll be sure to pick up a box to show everyone how awesome and mouthwatering the models are while you wait another month to get yours.

I'm aware, don't really care. Whoever buys it at Gencon will be spending more money than I did, and will still have to wait for the expansions.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Jesus christ, what is everyone bitching about now? This thread is exasperating, its like everyone whos pledged to this kickstarter feels entitled to something other than the product you pledged for. You were promised plastic multipart miniatures and a set of rules to use them with, and that is exactly what you are getting. Both rules and model development at the time was in a premature enough state that getting lemons was a distinct possibility, you inherently accepted that risk by giving them your money. If you're unhappy with what you're receiving, deal with, as the saying goes "Buyer beware".

Personally, I'm pretty pleased with what I'm seeing. Everything could always be better, but considering how my $300-400 initial investment on this kickstarter isprobably worth closer to $500 or $600 in retail, I can't complain.

You much try reading the thread. They're selling product before shipping it to backers. I'll be sure to pick up a box to show everyone how awesome and mouthwatering the models are while you wait another month to get yours.

I'm aware, don't really care. Whoever buys it at Gencon will be spending more money than I did, and will still have to wait for the expansions.

If you don't care what you get, or when you get it, why are you bothering to read the thread at all? People have the right to complain if that's their prerogative. Others DO care that what was promised will not come to be- backers get their product first. I'm not a backer, never watched the show, and I'm gong to grab a box to resell on eBay. That upsets some people.

chaos0xomega wrote:

I'm aware, don't really care. Whoever buys it at Gencon will be spending more money than I did, and will still have to wait for the expansions.

They're going to be selling exactly the same things we'll be getting, later, in wave one.

The other expansions? We've gotta wait for those too!

And, the question is out there already: Do they have enough money left to finish?

Will they pull the same thing for GenCon2015? "It's good for us to sell the next expansions NOW, you'll get yours soon!"

Bull gak.

Supoposedly the Jotun, Armored VT, and much more from Wave 2 is approved and ready, I bet that since not all the Wave 1 stuff was approved that they probably put some of those into production. If they told the backers that though, they'd be pissed and ask why was wave 1 not ready?

I really don't read the thread, I just pop in every so often to see if theres any more news aside from whats posted on the updates, usually all I see is crying, whining, and much gnashing of teeth. I'm not going to fault them for selling product at Gencon. I don't actually see where it was ever promised that we would receive our pledges before the game hits retail... in fact most gaming kickstarters seem to hit retail pretty much simultaneously with the pledges, while obviously I would prefer that I received my stuff before someone else was able to purchase, plenty of other kickstarters in various genres have done this same sort of thing without issue. I just see it as a limited time presale options for roughly 100 or so people willing to wait in line for the opportunity. Again, its their right to do so, and as I understand it the *actual* retail release isn't going to be until after I get my stuff anyway.

Did PB say that KS Backers would get theirs first?

If so, you can probably understand why some people are upset.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Jesus christ, what is everyone bitching about now?

It's "bitching" to vent when PB is proven to lie to their backers? Seriously?

This thread is exasperating, its like everyone whos pledged to this kickstarter feels entitled to something other than the product you pledged for. You were promised plastic multipart miniatures and a set of rules to use them with, and that is exactly what you are getting.

It was also promised that I would get those in December. No, October. No, December. No, January. No, March. No, wait - July. No, sorry - after $random_joe_off_the_street gets his copy at GenCon, despite the fact that they said - repeatedly - backers would get theirs before retail (and IMO if you're selling at retail price, it's a retail sale).

Both rules and model development at the time was in a premature enough state that getting lemons was a distinct possibility, you inherently accepted that risk by giving them your money. If you're unhappy with what you're receiving, deal with, as the saying goes "Buyer beware".

Yes, kickstarters have inherent risk. Thanks for the patronizing statement.
That doesn't mean it's okay to flat out lie to your backers, or that it's okay to accept almost $1.5 million and throw together some shoddy work and pretend you're good.

Personally, I'm pretty pleased with what I'm seeing. Everything could always be better, but considering how my $300-400 initial investment on this kickstarter isprobably worth closer to $500 or $600 in retail, I can't complain.

No, you absolutely can. I paid ~$250 into the Sedition Wars kickstarter, getting minis for way under "retail". Look at how much those are worth now. Are you sure this kickstarter can't hit the same results?
(note: I didn't pledge to resell in any case, but the comparison given was price paid vs retail)

chaos0xomega wrote:
Jesus christ, what is everyone bitching about now? This thread is exasperating, its like everyone whos pledged to this kickstarter feels entitled to something other than the product you pledged for.

Something simple: we gave them money for "product" over a year ago and other people get first crack at getting their hands on them.

You were promised plastic multipart miniatures and a set of rules to use them with, and that is exactly what you are getting.

The quality of both products mentioned are showing "blemishes" to the "amazing" quality touted so there is some concern of "value".

Both rules and model development at the time was in a premature enough state that getting lemons was a distinct possibility, you inherently accepted that risk by giving them your money.

At a kickstarter everything IS premature, usually only concepts can be brought forward. It is by raising money they get to make the reality. The "within the year" of the kickstarter close was the official timeline and they have extended well past that to "get it right". The critical timeline is the model development, they still have tons of time to make sure the game is right which is showing holes: there is no real excuse for that element.

If you're unhappy with what you're receiving, deal with, as the saying goes "Buyer beware".

But you can only go so far with the trite statement of "buyer beware", YES Palladium has a bad track record, there was optimism that Ninja Division would smooth out those issues, we have found out that is not so. Also the unhappiness is with what we are NOT receiving, we still have Wave2 to wait for and I have not received a thing as of yet.

Personally, I'm pretty pleased with what I'm seeing. Everything could always be better, but considering how my $300-400 initial investment on this kickstarter is probably worth closer to $500 or $600 in retail, I can't complain.

But retail is receiving the product first, developed with your money.
They are still banking on selling the product with the rules "sight unseen".
Imagine if the rules are panned as "garbage" by the critics?
How much could they command at retail then?

Kickstarter is just like "pre-order", everyone seems to think we are itching to pre-pay for a product that is not done, most leisure based activities bank on that:
Palladium pre-order: http://palladium-store.com/1001/category/Coming-Soon.html
We can find a whole new group of people who are pre-ordering Robotech Tactics so Palladium can have MOAR money.
Books: http://www.amazon.com/Popular-Pre-orders-Books/b?ie=UTF8&node=15372101
Miniatures:http://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Warhammer-40-000?N=102268+4294967192&Nu=product.repositoryId&qty=12&sorting=phl
Games: http://www.ebgames.ca/browse?nav=28-xu0,1317

What gets my knickers in a twist is that everyone is looking to get my money ahead of time with little compulsion to ensure it gets to me with some compelling benefits or "interest" on that early use of the money.

<edit> There are so many examples of companies can do this right, it is a shame further accountability cannot be enforced.

The bottom line is that the 100 (or however many) copies the sell at Gencon are already sold. That's the deal that they clearly made with their backers- You get priority over retail. The first copies are yours.

Their crap planning and bad estimates of timelines are not the backers fault in any way. They are panicked about getting the product to the market as quickly as possible. Fine, take preorders at Gencon and deliver as soon as all backer pledges are fulfilled. Easy. Cheap. Reasonable.

No one is gonna be more excited about your product than the people who pledged over a million dollars to see it made. Shafting them in the hopes that the general market will be more psyched than the backers will be pissed is just outright dumb.

I have a feeling that they've already blown through a stupid amount of the pledge money in stupid ways, and they feel they literally have to get some retail return in order to even finish the project. I will not be shocked to hear "wave 2" requiring some sort of bail-out to be released.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I don't actually see where it was ever promised that we would receive our pledges before the game hits retail...

Ah, so your complaining about complaining is rooted in ignorance. Well then.. update 125 is the spot that comes to mind easiest but it was also stated multiple times before and after it. Please in the future get a clue before you decide to jump head first into the "you guys are a bunch of whiners!" insult pool.