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Measuring distance is listed under the game rules section. It is a rule. Checking distance (or for the lack of) between bases is a measurement.

If you read the rules priority section it makes a distinction between the rules in the standard rules section (which measuring distances and hand to hand both reside in) and the rules on the cards for mecha and vehicles. Those on he cards are the special rules I am referring to. Hand to hand is a standard rule and the section on measuring still applies..

 Dark Severance wrote:


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Merijeek wrote:
That's exactly the point. If I can take a model and put it in a piece of terrain (a wide enough fence, a car, whatever), if there isn't enough room on that piece of terrain for you to fit you model's base, even if it's just a slightly-higher-than-the-thickness-of-your-model's-base high, my model is now literally immune to melee.

At this time there is no rules for terrain like a fence or a car. I also have not seen any terrain for a fence or car that could hold a model for this game. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened yet, but chances are this would only come up in a store game and not a tournament. Tournament terrain tends to be fairly straight forward. At the very least if it did then would have a MDC of 1 and can be destroyed and turned to rubble eliminating it. It probably wouldn't even support the model thereby turning it to rubble.

Do they have rules for terrain like "hills"? If you're at the top of a hill and there is no way for someone to place their model so that it's touching your base you are now immune to melee. Will that help you skip the "there aren't rules for that" and see the actual point?

 Manchu wrote:
It makes sense to me that I can try to shoot at anything that I can see, even if it is a tough shot.

Then we can start going into the "shooting at things you can't see" which is 99% of modern warfare: suppressive fire. Make an enemy keep their head down (and technically out of line of sight) by a fire element so that an assault element can maneuver to close range and take them out.

 Swabby wrote:
Checking distance (or for the lack of) between bases is a measurement.

Determining whether two objects are physically touching is not a question of measurement, except perhaps in chemistry or atomic physics.

 judgedoug wrote:
Then we can start going into the "shooting at things you can't see" which is 99% of modern warfare: suppressive fire.

Absolutely, but that is not a question of drawing LOS to the target.

Manchu, are you checking to see if there is any distance between the two objects?

No, I don't need to check for distance between objects that are touching.

But you do need to know if there is any quantity of distance between the two objects.

 Swabby wrote:
Measuring distance is listed under the game rules section. It is a rule. Checking distance (or for the lack of) between bases is a measurement.

If you read the rules priority section it makes a distinction between the rules in the standard rules section (which measuring distances and hand to hand both reside in) and the rules on the cards for mecha and vehicles. Those on he cards are the special rules I am referring to. Hand to hand is a standard rule and the section on measuring still applies..

At this point I feel like I'm being trolled. I don't know how to explain sections and sub-sections if you already having this issue. It might be better to ask what miniatures games do you play so I can compare those rulebooks and how those rulebooks are laid out compared to this.

Game Rules (Chapter)
- Learning the Rules (sub-section)
- General Concepts & Definitions (sub-section)
- The Turn (sub-section)
- Ranged Combat (sub-section)
- Hand to Hand Combat (sub-section)
- Terrain (sub-section)
- Special Abilities (sub-section)
- Weapon System Special Abilities (sub-section)

For example under Special Abilities for Hands. Spend a command point and you can climb up a surface. It calls for you to measure horizontally to the vertical surface. If the base was touching it, you wouldn't need to measure (you are already at 0), just spend the command point to climb. For another example Leap, lets you jump terrain but has the stipulation of you can't end touching another mecha's base. Flight as another example can't end its turn with any part of its base on top of another mecha's base.

General Concepts & Definitions are used to explain when parts of the rules call upon something to be done like measuring distance, rolling dice, re-rolles, line of sight, rounding, priority, etc. You call upon it when referenced by the rest of the sections in the rules. At no point does it say anywhere in "Hand to Hand Combat" or call upon someone to measure distance. You would not use measuring distance because at no point does it ask for you to do it or have it done. It simply asks are the models in base to base contact.

Merijeek wrote:
Do they have rules for terrain like "hills"? If you're at the top of a hill and there is no way for someone to place their model so that it's touching your base you are now immune to melee. Will that help you skip the "there aren't rules for that" and see the actual point?

Immune would be a strong word, it is saying you can't take damage. Hills would be considered open terrain. On the off chance that a tournament had terrain set up in such a way in your example, which they usually don't, then you could not use hand to hand. It isn't like that gives anyone an advantage or suddenly make them invulnerable (in fact its the opposite), it is the worst location to leave a mecha. They wouldn't need to worry about hand to hand because everyone else would just shoot at ranged. This situation would 99% never come up in a tournament to where it would even matter, because hand to hand at that point wouldn't matter. If you were going to do something like that, it would be better to hover and at least get a -1 Strike penalty.

 Swabby wrote:
But you do need to know if there is any quantity of distance between the two objects.

No you don't. If the base is touching there is 0 quantity of distance, no quantity of distance. It doesn't exist... touching means 0, no distances, can't get closer than that.

It is a binary observation. either there is no distance and hand to hand can occur or there is some distance and it cannot. You still must observe this distance by making a measurement (with your eyeballs) prior to deciding that the two models can engage in combat.

I understand your subsection take on things but I see nothing in the rulebook that states that any part of the game rules chapter is actually not a standard rule.

This rule is either bad for the reason I am stating or the reason Merijeek is stating. Either way you look at it fhe method of determining eligibility of hth is problematic.

There are also other considerations that get robbed from the measurement rules, like weapon ranges.

Ah, illogical, pedantic rules lawyering. Now I rember why I hate tournaments.

Hey if you have buds that never argue about rules the truth is you don't even need them!

The primary purpose of rules is not actually to prevent arguments about rules.

Lack of any distance does not require measurement.

For the sake of the discussion I will agree with you. The scenario changes and now if a base is not at the exact elevation as the targets base that model cannot engage in HTH even if they are directly next to each other.

Either way this rule is rubbish.

So don't play the game? Boom! Problem solved!

*Jazz hands*

How about units walking on the ground in base contact with models that are supposed to be in flight?

Wanting the game to have good rules could reasonably be considered a symptom of wanting to play the game.


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Manchu as far as I have seen that is totally feasible in the rules.

I think that is a bigger concern.

 Manchu wrote:
How about units walking on the ground in base contact with models that are supposed to be in flight?

If a mecha is in flight you can not end the turn with any part of its base on top of another mecha's base or vice versa.

Does touching count as overlapping?

Mike, did you send off the suggestions?

 Manchu wrote:
Does touching count as overlapping?

No. So you could theoretically punch a Gnerl. It doesn't matter where the flyer ends up anyway, because you could theoretically march up to it, snuggle up all close in base to base and then punch it.

 Manchu wrote:
Does touching count as overlapping?

From what I understand yes overlapping would be the equivalent to touching, but I can't seem to find anything that would let movement stop by overlapping... the closest is base to base contact.

With movement a mecha's base cannont be moved through the space occupied by another mecha's base, obstacle or other impassable object. With Flight you may move over another mecha, it cannot end its movement for the turn with any of its base on top of another mecha's base. With Leap the mecha cannot end its Leap with any part of its base on top of another mecha's base or in deadly terrain, regardless of which point in the movement the Leap takes places.

Base to Base contact does not have anything to do with overlapping.

 warboss wrote:
Mike, did you send off the suggestions?

Yes, I did, but I often send updated ones when something else comes to mind. It included some optional and advanced rules too. Have something more to add?


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 Swabby wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Does touching count as overlapping?

No. So you could theoretically punch a Gnerl. It doesn't matter where the flyer ends up anyway, because you could theoretically march up to it, snuggle up all close in base to base and then punch it.

Aircraft cannot engage or be engaged in HTH.

Where does it say that Mike? I can't find it in the rulebook.



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I don't doubt you, I just can't find it.


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Mike, I think I found what you are talking about.

The aircraft special rule states the following:

"An aircraft is never considered to be engaged in hand to hand combat. A mecha with the aircraft ability can move out of base to base contact with the enemy mecha without having to pay command points to do so."

The hand to hand combat subsection states the following in the engaged in hand to hand combat clause:

"Once a mecha is in base to base contact with an enemy mecha, the two are considered to be engaged in hand to hand combat and cannot attack with weapon systems at all. Additionally, an engaged mecha can't be attacked by other mecha with weapons systems. If either mecha wishes to move out of base to base contact with the other mecha, then its player must pay one command point to do so."


It does not say anywhere that you are required to be engaged in hand to hand combat in order to initiate a hand to hand attack. It is perfectly legal as written to walk up to an aircraft and punch it.

Also wtf is up with the parry rules? They state that you can never dodge a hand to hand attack?! The hell?! You can dodge bullets, but not a punch?

An aircraft is never considered to be engaged in hand to hand combat.

How can you perform a HTH attack and not be engaged?

You can find in any rules sets something like that IF you want to see it and try to make it ambiguous. You actually have to try to find these types of things. Answering this is kinda a waste since it is clear in the rules.

Parry is just the HtH version of the Dodge mechanic. It makes them feel warm and fuzzy having both in the game. If it makes you feel better I think parrying blasts will become available with 2nd gen when you take into account the shields that the Southern Cross infantry, Hovertanks, and Logans have.

Mike1975 wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Mike, did you send off the suggestions?

Yes, I did, but I often send updated ones when something else comes to mind. It included some optional and advanced rules too. Have something more to add?


*snip*

Aircraft cannot engage or be engaged in HTH.

No, nothing to add. I was just curious if it got delayed with all the discussion. As for aircraft, the only HTH I think should ever affect them would be from using that have flight and are using it that turn (don't recall if it is a mode you have to turn on and off). I think it makes sense both mechanically and in universe for a Q-Rau to be able to sucker punch a ghost but not a gladiator punching a Gnerl no matter how low altitude a strafing run it may be doing.

Mike1975 wrote:
An aircraft is never considered to be engaged in hand to hand combat.

How can you perform a HTH attack and not be engaged?

You can find in any rules sets something like that IF you want to see it and try to make it ambiguous. You actually have to try to find these types of things. Answering this is kinda a waste since it is clear in the rules.

Parry is just the HtH version of the Dodge mechanic. It makes them feel warm and fuzzy having both in the game. If it makes you feel better I think parrying blasts will become available with 2nd gen when you take into account the shields that the Southern Cross infantry, Hovertanks, and Logans have.

Funny you should mention them. A hover tank can jump into the air to catch a crashing Logan, but they can't leap into the air take a swing at a flying enemy?

I can only assume that "engaged" has a very clear definition in the rules.

Mike1975 wrote:
An aircraft is never considered to be engaged in hand to hand combat.

How can you perform a HTH attack and not be engaged?
.

Being engaged in HtH is different then making HtH attacks. Many wargames make this distinction. There are models in warmachine that can make hand to hand attacks but they can freely move away from the models they are "engaged" with without suffering penalties. Same goes for 40k, vehicles can be attacked in hand to hand, but they are never stuck in assault. There are a ton of exceptions like that. The aircraft special rule is very similar.

There is absolutely nothing in the rules that prevents a hand to hand attack against an aircraft, in fact the rules fully support it. The advantage the aircraft has is that it can move off in its next turn without paying a command point and it can use its weapons as normal. The way the rule reads, technically if a Spartan walked up to and punch a Gnerl, the Spartan would be engaged while the Gnerl would not be due to the aircraft special rule having priority over the standard rule. The Spartan does not have that rule so the standard rule applies. On the Gnerls next turn if flys off as normal unless it actually died due to the punch.


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Merijeek:

""Once a mecha is in base to base contact with an enemy mecha, the two are considered to be engaged in hand to hand combat and cannot attack with weapon systems at all. Additionally, an engaged mecha can't be attacked by other mecha with weapons systems. If either mecha wishes to move out of base to base contact with the other mecha, then its player must pay one command point to do so."

That is the meat of the actual rule.



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And Mike, this is clear, and you are reading it wrong.

 Swabby wrote:
Being engaged in HtH is different then making HtH attacks. Many wargames make this distinction. There are models in warmachine that can make hand to hand attacks but they can freely move away from the models they are "engaged" with without suffering penalties. Same goes for 40k, vehicles can be attacked in hand to hand, but they are never stuck in assault. There are a ton of exceptions like that. The aircraft special rule is very similar.

This isn't Warmachine and this isn't 40K. Being engaged in hand to hand is not different from making hand to hand attacks. There are no distinctions between the two in Robotech Tactics, they are the same thing. This was actually covered in the demo at GenCon. Your combat choices are also covered in Step 3: The Combat Step which then tell you what to reference further.