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 Manchu wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
I would say they are not new to selling miniatures and not inexperienced at that. After all, doing it for about 25 years is almost as long as GW. Do you disagree?

Yes, I disagree. I would say selling metal minis to RPGers decades ago (i.e., Palladium's current model) is absolutely nothing like selling plastic kits to war gamers in 2012 and after. As you can see from this very thread, I jumped on this KS very early on and somehow never once got the idea that the miniatures would be better than GW's stuff. Aside from Palladium's inexperience, the other big clue was the involvement of Ninja Division, which does not IMO make very good miniatures, either.

 warboss wrote:
Hey, don't shoot the messenger. It's not our fault palladium seemingly learned very little about minis in their multiple decades of making and selling them!

Honestly, I could say the same thing about almost everything Reaper makes.

Ninja Division make Super Dungeon Explore and Relic Knights: do you really think those are worse minis?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
If that is your standard, I think you will be pleasantly surprised by RoboTech minis with a good paintjob, unless of course you are already committed to an opinion.

That is my standard for 1 part minis 25 years old, yes. I'd expect loads better for 16-20 part ones.

Something like this:

 Albertorius wrote:
Ninja Division make Super Dungeon Explore and Relic Knights: do you really think those are worse minis?

I don't like either range; neither as a matter of aesthetics nor as a matter of quality. (In fact, I canceled my pre-order of SDE when pics of the minis started to surface.) I think there have been some paintjobs that make them look okay, however.

 Manchu wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
Ninja Division make Super Dungeon Explore and Relic Knights: do you really think those are worse minis?

I don't like either range; neither as a matter of aesthetics or as a matter of quality. (In fact, I canceled my pre-order of SDE when pics of the minis started to surface.) I think there have been some paintjobs that make them look okay, however.

Yes, but he is pointing out the models are of better quality then the RTT models. If you don't like their quality how can you like RTT, seem more like aesthetics thing after all.

 Manchu wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
Ninja Division make Super Dungeon Explore and Relic Knights: do you really think those are worse minis?

I don't like either range; neither as a matter of aesthetics nor as a matter of quality. (In fact, I canceled my pre-order of SDE when pics of the minis started to surface.) I think there have been some paintjobs that make them look okay, however.

Have you actually had them in hand, to ascertain the quality of the sculpts and how many detail actually got ported to the mini? And if so, do you think ND's are of the same quality as the RRT ones? Aesthetics are not relevant right now.

 Albertorius wrote:
Have you actually had them in hand, to ascertain the quality of the sculpts and how many detail actually got ported to the mini? And if so, do you think ND's are of the same quality as the RRT ones? Aesthetics are not relevant right now.

I saw both at GenCon. I think the RoboTech models are pretty nice, certainly not crap. I think the SDE miniatures are okay as well (if not to my taste) but I don't think they are are dramatically better in quality. Looking at the SDE stuff in person, I was not sad that I canceled my pre-order. Looking at the RoboTech stuff in person, I was not sad that I pledged for the KS (at least not because of model quality).

Noir wrote:
If you don't like their quality how can you like RTT

Please keep in mind that my position is that the RoboTech miniatures are "pretty nice" and "certainly not crap" -- I am not saying they are "top of the line" (apparently like PB).

 Manchu wrote:
I saw both at GenCon. I think the RoboTech models are pretty nice, certainly not crap. I think the SDE miniatures are okay as well (if not to my taste) but I don't think they are are dramatically better in quality. Looking at the SDE stuff in person, I was not sad that I canceled my pre-order. Looking at the RoboTech stuff in person, I was not sad that I pledged for the KS (at least not because of model quality).

OK then, we'll have to agree to disagree . I've had SDE and RK minis on hand and they have details in all the planes of their volume, which to me is a marked improvement when compared with the Spacy stuff from RRT. But of course, a good sprue distribution and minis cutting does wonders for that.

EDIT: Ah, a last question. Did you get to compare the RRT minis with the new plastic one-part Battletech ones?

Bare plastic is the only real means of comparison.

Even I can make a blobby hunk of plastic look OK with a careful paintjob: you can paint on detail that is not there.

These models are to be like "paint by numbers", I should be able to put a base color on and a wash and be 80% done. If the detail is not there, this painting method will show the shortfalls rather quickly.

I have a bad feeling about my Wave 1 stuff, hope I am wrong.

 Talizvar wrote:
These models are to be like "paint by numbers", I should be able to put a base color on and a wash and be 80% done. If the detail is not there, this painting method will show the shortfalls rather quickly.

So... this, then, for the 80%?






(incidentally, it looks like the deviantart guy this pictures belong to has deleted my comment).

Anyone care to get their hands on some of these awesome, mouth watering, high quality miniatures let me know, once wave 1 ships I'll have some for sale..maybe I'll get some Christmas money...lol

Now I know why these are mouth-watering miniatures. Because vomit is in part, a liquid. Mouth-watering indeed.

Seriously, those things are nausatingly bad. I'd prefer bare, unpainted miniatures at the demo tables to those disgusting things. They're far worse than the first space marine I've painted at age 9. At least that thing stayed vaguely inside the lines, and had solid colors.

These literally look like someone rolled one around in a puddle of paint and then hosed off with some brackish water, then put in the dirt to dry.

It also speaks to the cheapness and lack of care when you look at that awful flowerpot terrain, next to the perfectly servicible but cardstock buildings from another, superior company (the Dropzone Commander paper city set)

Imo,the painted ones still look way better than the unpainted ones. At least with that paintjob, there's something to distract you from the multitude of seams

Let's be fair, many of those demo pieces were not professionally done.

Yes, they should have been.

Many were painted by the volunteers that ran the demo tables, one in particular that by all accounts goes above and beyond.

PB blame him for backlash. This isn't fair.

It's not his responsibility to get quality work done to show off the quality of the models.

It's not fair to judge someone who isn't a professional modeller/painter on the same grounds as we would someone claiming to be a professional.

So let's lay off the demo pieces, huh? We know PB should have done them properly, but there's no need to make a guy who spent an undefined amount of his own time making an effort on them feel like crap.

I don't know... I did a lot of painting teaching back when I was a redshirt at GW. That is literally worse than most I've seen done by 10 year-olds as their first mini (but they did have us ).

And I actually think it's fair to judge them as professionals. They were promoting their official game, at their official venue. The QC is obviously PB's problem. Once they get put at the table, though? I'll judge them on the same basis as anyone else's showcase demo tables.

There's nothing wrong with saying a paintjob is horrible if it is although I'll agree it's really PBs responsibility to make sure there are fairly decently painted minis on their demo tables.

Also, I think another part of the issue is that these are some of the FIRST painted minis we've seen out in the wild. Literally. So yes, people are going to focus on them because there aren't many other examples to focus on.

Nah, my point was the stuff in the display cabinets was supposed to be 'professional', whereas the stuff on the tables wasn't - that was apparently done by (very amateur) volunteers. Why that is the case is beyond me, but that seems to be the situation.

Whilst it (the demo stuff) should have been presented professionally (neat but basic bulk paintjobs), and *Palladium* deserve all the flak they get over that, it's not fair to criticise the poor shmo that did it.

I'm just kinda saying 'aim the blame where it's due', if you follow me.

This said, if it turns out that a 'pro' studio did any of these (what exactly did BTP paint), then they also deserve a fair amount of fire for the shoddy work.

If you believe KS, and the Surgeon General has a warning out against consuming large amounts of BS, their two small tables had models professionally painted by BTP, but those were SO SWAMPED by eager attendees that almost nobody got to photograph them. Instead, people could only gather around the BIG table where the poor schmo who reportedly had quite a bit of drama just getting to GenCon had his own personally painted models with a "basic" paint job.

If you think that KS just said that to equip his True Believers with hand-wavium to dismiss people criticizing the paintjobs even though many of the pictures likely are of the BTP tables, you win nothing...because it's pretty obvious. My guess is that the blue/black battlepods were the poor unfortunate's, but those "weathered" models recently posted are the BTP ones. However, winterdyne probably has better contacts to find out that sort of thing than me (which is easy, since I have no contacts).

Also, curse you Albertorius for posting that sprue pic of the PSC PzIV I spend too much on tiny tanks as it is damnit...

winterdyne wrote:
Nah, my point was the stuff in the display cabinets was supposed to be 'professional', whereas the stuff on the tables wasn't - that was apparently done by (very amateur) volunteers. Why that is the case is beyond me, but that seems to be the situation.

From what I've seen on photos, I'd only consider actually professionally done a handful of the minis inside the display cabinet, you know. I've come to expect a certain level of quality from display miniatures.

The rest would have been all right for demos, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Krinsath wrote:
Also, curse you Albertorius for posting that sprue pic of the PSC PzIV I spend too much on tiny tanks as it is damnit...

Consider yourself an innocent bystander hit by a stray bullet ^_^

Korias1004 wrote:
Anyone care to get their hands on some of these awesome, mouth watering, high quality miniatures let me know, once wave 1 ships I'll have some for sale..maybe I'll get some Christmas money...lol

This Christmas or next Christmas?

Problem is, I expect even if you got your stuff by this Christmas you'd find a bit of a buyer's market on Ebay for a while.

Hold up now. KS did claim this:

 Krinsath wrote:
their two small tables had models professionally painted by BTP

But he did not claim this:

 Krinsath wrote:
but those were SO SWAMPED by eager attendees that almost nobody got to photograph them

Yes, he seemingly exaggerated the amount of folks playing demos and asking about the game relative to what I and others actually witnessed at GenCon but he did not say crowds kept people from seeing the minis. I saw the minis there, both the poorly painted ones and the nicer ones (I did not know they were BTP jobs). I didn't take any pictures of the nicer ones because they looked like ones I had already seen since last GenCon.

Has this game gone on sale yet? Anywhere? This seems to be dragging. With all the money they raised I dont understand how I havent seen this game on sale everywhere by now.

Peeps who put their payments in on kickstarter must be irritated.

 Manchu wrote:
Hold up now. KS did claim this:

 Krinsath wrote:
their two small tables had models professionally painted by BTP

But he did not claim this:

 Krinsath wrote:
but those were SO SWAMPED by eager attendees that almost nobody got to photograph them

Yes, he seemingly exaggerated the amount of folks playing demos and asking about the game relative to what I and others actually witnessed at GenCon but he did not say crowds kept people from seeing the minis. I saw the minis there, both the poorly painted ones and the nicer ones (I did not know they were BTP jobs). I didn't take any pictures of the nicer ones because they looked like ones I had already seen since last GenCon.

...he also said (passed on by the person actually doing their PR work, so I can only assume it's true?) that nobody with Palladium Books had even the slightest idea of taking pictures of the miniatures.

So...how does one decide which blatant lies to believe and which ones to disbelieve?

All I can tell you is I was there and I saw better looking miniatures than the ones just posted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KTG17 wrote:
Peeps who put their payments in on kickstarter must be irritated.

What gave it away?

 Killionaire wrote:
It also speaks to the cheapness and lack of care when you look at that awful flowerpot terrain, next to the perfectly servicible but cardstock buildings from another, superior company (the Dropzone Commander paper city set)

I like the little flowerpots and was thinking of doing something similar with my DZC cityscape terrain. :(

 Manchu wrote:
All I can tell you is I was there and I saw better looking miniatures than the ones just posted

Something like the ones in this?

http://www.crittohit.com/events/gen-con-palladium-books-ninja-division-robotech-rpg-tactics

This makes me remind how far has things gone since last Gen Con...

 Albertorius wrote:

This makes me remind how far has things gone since last Gen Con...

You mean from "looks good, I'm looking forward to it" to "Eew"?

@ Albertorius
Those initial pictures of the models, I must admit the "dry brush" paint job was not doing the models any favors.
<shudder> I dare say they are horrible, you just don't dry brush surfaces like that... it is just SO wrong.
For what little time spent painting them, one base color, a shade wash (80%!), a bit of edging would have looked worlds better.
Provided mold lines were removed and all the parting line gaps were filled...

Palladium wants our money which is apparent, but not to even expend a tiny bit of work to get it??
Looking at those blobs of paint on what is to be a showcase product...

Ever have that feeling some people do not deserve to run a business and you want to say "step aside and let me have a go!"?
I make a bloody career in evaluating supply risk and customer service, this is so painful to watch.
So many little/big things could have been made right with very little effort.

If customers for kickstarter were viewed as "partners" and treated as such, it would be like having an army for a sales force (R&D, design, Quality Eng., consultants...).
Instead, we act more as a cautionary crowd saying "keep away until they get this mess sorted out! (even then be cautious!)".

Wonder how the shipping equipment upgrades are going...
Wait till everything is packaged, send out in batches, send out to retailers first... any number of options are available.
If you see a box of the game at your local store, just don't tell anyone: it hurts enough.

 Talizvar wrote:

Wonder how the shipping equipment upgrades are going...

I wonder how they expected anyone beyond the most die hard gullible fan friend to believe that taking most of the first container to gencon to sell wouldn't delay backers' shipments when backers apparently need the first FOUR containers to fill their wave 1 requirements and the people that SHOULD have been setting up the shipping were gone except for a skeleton crew of one or two guys left back at home base. If they had gotten the first container, the backer shipping system still wouldn't have been set up and the other containers still haven't been even loaded let alone arrived like they claimed they would have. They'd have shipped of a dozen or so packages during gencon to select fan friend backers and called it "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!" while they sold hundred of boxes to people at the con that were already sold to backers.

Thankfully, PB's dastardly plan was thwarted by the US Government. (I assume someone in Customs backed the KS.) So moving on, will PB start shipping out of that first container as soon as Customs releases it? Has that already happened?

 warboss wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

Wonder how the shipping equipment upgrades are going...

I wonder how they expected anyone beyond the most die hard gullible fan friend to believe that taking most of the first container to gencon to sell wouldn't delay backers' shipments when backers apparently need the first FOUR containers to fill their wave 1 requirements and the people that SHOULD have been setting up the shipping were gone except for a skeleton crew of one or two guys left back at home base. If they had gotten the first container, the backer shipping system still wouldn't have been set up and the other containers still haven't been even loaded let alone arrived like they claimed they would have. They'd have shipped of a dozen or so packages during gencon to select fan friend backers and called it "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!" while they sold hundred of boxes to people at the con that were already sold to backers.

I still bet they will ship to distributors before they take care of backers,

Maaaaaaaaaaybe they'll be clever (and certainly with a sob story) and split it 50/50 or something. But no way all backers get wave one before distributors start getting it.

It has already been released IIRC according to the latest update. If you read between the lies, blame game, and marketing speak you'll find it in there.