Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2014/08/29 13:03:49
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
I think the closest we're going to see of a domestically produced project for a miniatures game of a large scale would be GameZone's HeroQuest, domestically produced resin.
Domestically as in Spain? And it's not really a traditional resin, I have about a hundred of their new figures, it's more akin to Trollforge's spun-cast plastic.
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
2014/08/29 13:15:31
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Well, 864 boxes are shown in the picture. That's with no assumption that there are pallets behind the three on the right beside the center one partially in view. Going by the number of backer per pledge level, it seems like PB will be shipping 6500+ copies of the core box. If there are only three containers, they have to include more than 864 each. The picture says that's most of the core boxes in Container 1 ... which makes me think there must be at least two other pallets of 144 each not visible behind the visible pallets.
I think the closest we're going to see of a domestically produced project for a miniatures game of a large scale would be GameZone's HeroQuest, domestically produced resin.
Domestically as in Spain? And it's not really a traditional resin, I have about a hundred of their new figures, it's more akin to Trollforge's spun-cast plastic.
Domestically as in "same country as the company", I think (although in my case it would be domestically as in Spain ), although probably "same general continent" could be argued to be domestically for most practical purposes.
There's also everything Prodos is doing, the Wolsung minis...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote: Well, 864 boxes are shown in the picture. That's with no assumption that there are pallets behind the three on the right beside the center one partially in view. Going by the number of backer per pledge level, it seems like PB will be shipping 6500+ copies of the core box. If there are only three containers, they have to include more than 864 each. The picture says that's most of the core boxes in Container 1 ... which makes me think there must be at least two other pallets of 144 each not visible behind the visible pallets.
Hm. Makes me think how they supposed that selling several hundred of those at Gen Con wasn't going to impact when the pledgers received theirs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/29 14:37:10
2014/08/29 15:02:32
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Well....this is good news. Now maybe some really dissatisfied backers will put up their core boxes for really cheap, then I might buy in. The models, as seen, have potential to look nice with a decent amount of work and care (even with the stupid amounts of parts). The game has potential (still not happy with LOS, but at least an official FAQ with what has been agreed on here would work). I shall continue to watch as things unfold.
Dark Angels- 7500 pts Tau- 5000pts Chaos Daemons- 3000/2000 pts Dark Eldar(allies)- 1500 pts Zoom, Zoom, Iyaan.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: I just watched a battleship falling in love with a man.... yep. That's enough anime for the day.
2014/08/29 15:55:28
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
I'm guessing that whole fan friend and Ninja Division flying over a couple of folks to help ship is not happening. It is the middle of the week so at best the fan friends will help on saturday only and ND is at PAX this week and John is going to China next week according to the update. Just as predicted by everyone but Palladium, it'll likely be just their normal crew shipping out orders.
If anyone here gets a shipping notification, let us know. I suspect that since most folks posting here have much bigger orders than me (both for the base pledge and add ons) that it may not be too likely to get a post soon.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/29 15:56:36
2014/08/29 15:58:57
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Anyone located in the US have a Battle Cry or Showdown they would want to part with? I ended up with a Battle Cry but now have a few friends who didn't get to back at the time but are looking to go in together. Although I believe one of them is more interested in the models to use for Battletech than Robotech.
2014/08/29 17:40:07
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Manchu wrote: Is it based on how much you ordered or what your backer number is?
Both. It seems that they're doing the simplest orders first but they extract the info from the backerkit files based on backer number. My guess is they're doing simple orders first and then within those going by order of backer number. For the less popular smaller orders under the "sweet spot" of battlecry/blitzkrieg, it likely won't make much of a difference.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On an unrelated note, here is an interview with the wallet stolen down under the weather not his usual self guy mentioned in the gencon update.
Apparently you can teach an old dog new tricks! As an employee of palladium, he's actually giving people the choice of whether he'll be nice or an ass. Previously, if you didn't express a choice in the secret vote, they just counted it as the latter! Mystery solved!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/29 20:26:29
2014/08/29 20:26:33
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Oh meant to tell you guys, PB did email me back in a very timely manner concerning the BattleFoam bag. They told me I could preorder it for 120 USD + S&H but they could not tell me when it would be available to ship. So I declined.
Manchu wrote: Oh meant to tell you guys, PB did email me back in a very timely manner concerning the BattleFoam bag. They told me I could preorder it for 120 USD + S&H but they could not tell me when it would be available to ship. So I declined.
$120 is still reasonable in my opinion. I photos from the updates showed it looks like a rebadged custom foam PACK 432. which is selling for $125 but you get custom Robotech Foams, and given the size of the Robotech models I think the cuttings can fit a wide varity of models from different games. A custom PACK432 costs $175.
The extra in shipping hurts but if your address is in the US I don't think it will cost too much.
I've got a PACK 720 from Battleform so I know the bag will be made to a high standard, the only downside for me was shipping 1 bag to Canada costs like $50US if I don't get caught by customs. I've mentioned it before in this thread but the bag is my most anticipated purchase, good quality bag with cheap price ($100 vs $120) and free shipping.
2014/08/30 02:55:43
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
120 USD seems reasonable to me. I would have preordered it if they could give me a shipping date. I was happy that they were honest about not being able to give me a shipping date.
I have a Battlefoam bag already and I think it is very good quality.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/30 02:56:24
Manchu wrote: Again, the All Quiet on the Martian Front miniatures are plastic and are manufactured in the US.
Do you have any links to the decision behind this? I took a look at their KS home page and couldn't find anything. Thanks.
EDIT: Not finding much about USA vs. China injection molding, other than warnings of hidden costs of overseas manufacturing (which backers are well aware of!). One company mentioned that labor is cheaper in China, so projects which also include pre-assembling and painting would be cheaper in China than the USA. But many miniature games do not require either and are still made in China. One plastic injection company has both USA and Chinese facilities, and another is a USA company that owns its Chinese plants. All Quiet has resin and metal as well as plastic, which is, afaik, not common among miniature games with plastic injection molding.
I thought that the stuff was coming in to palladium from multiple sources and they would have to do the packaging? If that's correct basically we are just seeing shrink wrapped palettes full of empty boxes that still need to be packed with the contents.
Do we have any shots of the piles of boxes that contain the other contents like sprues and books?
There should be palettes worth of these as well... and we have a picture of one box?
It's also worth noting that it say box #655 (or 635?) of 5,834 and that there's 3 sets per box, which going by the packaging is roughly 17,502 base sets coming in.
Edit: looking at the picture some more it may be possible that it says 9 sets per box. Which may be more accurate based on the size of the box vs the size of the base set boxes. If it's actually 9 sets per box, that's 52,506 base sets, woah.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/08/30 14:23:49
2014/08/30 14:42:24
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Manchu wrote: Again, the All Quiet on the Martian Front miniatures are plastic and are manufactured in the US.
Do you have any links to the decision behind this? I took a look at their KS home page and couldn't find anything. Thanks.
EDIT: Not finding much about USA vs. China injection molding, other than warnings of hidden costs of overseas manufacturing (which backers are well aware of!). One company mentioned that labor is cheaper in China, so projects which also include pre-assembling and painting would be cheaper in China than the USA. But many miniature games do not require either and are still made in China. One plastic injection company has both USA and Chinese facilities, and another is a USA company that owns its Chinese plants. All Quiet has resin and metal as well as plastic, which is, afaik, not common among miniature games with plastic injection molding.
The other disadvantage of using a (new) US company (or any new company) is that they are not experience in what matters to war gamers, so you end up having to do loads more supervision etc
look at the goblins mantic produced when they first tried to move away from Renendra, the ended up with pretty horrible results,
Even WGF in china which is capable of producing some stunning stuff (Dreamforged and Kingdom Death as well as some of their own stuff) took a several years of making kits to get that good, and the plastic engineers still need supervising or they put sprue gates in places that a wargamer would not want them just because it's most efficient (like coming off a face)
2014/08/30 14:44:18
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
ced1106 wrote: EDIT: Not finding much about USA vs. China injection molding, other than warnings of hidden costs of overseas manufacturing (which backers are well aware of!). One company mentioned that labor is cheaper in China, so projects which also include pre-assembling and painting would be cheaper in China than the USA. But many miniature games do not require either and are still made in China. One plastic injection company has both USA and Chinese facilities, and another is a USA company that owns its Chinese plants. All Quiet has resin and metal as well as plastic, which is, afaik, not common among miniature games with plastic injection molding.
I'm not an experiment on this but in my experience most believe the costs are cheaper because of labor. That lends to some of it, it isn't the full truth. One of the reasons costs is cheaper is because overseas has newer, better equipment vs the US which tends to buy 2nd hand equipment or a different type of industrial grade. The equipment is a lot less expensive there. Labor factors a lot into it but the equipment that they are used gives them multiple plastic options, sizes and options that the US doesn't typically have. There is nothing stopping US from purchasing the same Chinese equipment but then you have language barrier, warranty, repair and operation which tend to fall short in the umbrella that you would normally get with other equipment. For a consumer items it is less than a risk but for a business that makes money on it, unless they have a means to bridge those gaps, will bank on better quality equipment (in terms of support, warranty, language). Not only are we talking a cheaper labor, cheaper equipment, cheaper manufacturing methods because their equipment is newer but also cheaper plastic options because of it.
There are downfalls for that unfortunately. There isn't exactly a website or directory, unless you already have buyers or contractors there who know all the factories, the ins and outs. For example in Japan there are a lot of small family run manufacturing companies that have very unique skillsets. They have a few trade secrets that stay within the business but again are plague by there isn't a directory on this. Danny Choo, creator of the Mirai Smart Doll, is on an international board trying to correct that. Companies fall and become new companies under a different name, it seems, almost yearly. A company that you had a bad experience with can rebuild itself, infrastructure pretty quickly and unless you've been there seems like a new company. There are also the holidays, that is where most delays happen. For example Chinese New Years, you might as well count no work being done mid January/February as Chinese New Years can fall between January 21 to February 20 and it ends up being a long celebration. Depending on the region, there are a lot of holidays with most not being on a calendar anywhere. Unless you have an agent working for you, actually employed by you there vs a contractor then you may not find out about half the holidays. So days you expect work being done aren't being done. There are other issues but most tend to get outweighed by the amount a business can save in manufacturing. It really comes down to the quantity and time. Small runs tend to be cheaper overseas because they don't have large minimum numbers to make the runs more profitable, where in the US we X time + Y labor which translates in needing at least Z work to be profitable.
Don't be too fooled by companies and websites that say the exist both in USA and China. They tend to have a US sales office or representation which can help with customs. However almost all of them send their manufacturing to China. You would hope that means you get better representation because you have a US office to deal with but that also isn't always the case.
2014/08/30 15:34:20
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Manchu wrote: Again, the All Quiet on the Martian Front miniatures are plastic and are manufactured in the US.
Do you have any links to the decision behind this? I took a look at their KS home page and couldn't find anything. Thanks.
EDIT: Not finding much about USA vs. China injection molding, other than warnings of hidden costs of overseas manufacturing (which backers are well aware of!). One company mentioned that labor is cheaper in China, so projects which also include pre-assembling and painting would be cheaper in China than the USA. But many miniature games do not require either and are still made in China. One plastic injection company has both USA and Chinese facilities, and another is a USA company that owns its Chinese plants. All Quiet has resin and metal as well as plastic, which is, afaik, not common among miniature games with plastic injection molding.
Additionally, Defiance Games' UAMC plastic kit was also made by a US injection molder.
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
2014/08/30 17:07:33
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Manchu wrote: Again, the All Quiet on the Martian Front miniatures are plastic and are manufactured in the US.
Do you have any links to the decision behind this? I took a look at their KS home page and couldn't find anything. Thanks./
Here's CEO Ernie's take:
Yes they are done in the US. In fact, now that we have these, I can tell everyone of something I am very proud of. All Quiet on the Martian Front, except for the bases (from Renedra) , the dice, and the bonus tape measure for the Kickstarter has ALL been Made in America.
Some said it couldn't be done but we did it.
That was a goal form the beginning but not an easy one to attain. I know for a fact that All Quiet has extended jobs for several folks.
Even with domestic manufacture, the plastic molding still delayed the initial wave by 5 months and Ernie had to switch companies mid-stream because the initial one wasn't getting it done. It can be done in the US, but from an efficiency standpoint it didn't seem to make any positive impact in the KS, at least for the initial process.
2014/08/30 21:39:44
Subject: Re:Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
If you want "Made in USA" for personal reasons, that's your choice, but I wouldn't equate this to a business reason, other than attracting business from backers who share your view (not a bad idea) and willingness to take a loss (which many KS, anyway). That is, if you're using it as a "This project did it, why can't this other one do it" argument, I'd need a business reason for the decision. Itar's Workshop, makers of cast dungeon tiles, set his international shipping at $20, which was an obvious loss *because he wanted to*. Myth also had low international shipping of $13, as did Reaper's first Bones. But I don't think that because these projects chose to set low international shipping costs, that other projects should as well.
Now, with that being said, I found a business reason for a US company to manufacture domestically.
Ross Currie
US manufacturing has come down a lot in price over the last few years. I would say it depends on your product. For something like board/card games, there are specialty game makers in China that can crank them out quickly, that have great reviews from other KS creators, etc.
For me, Squishy Forts is pretty bulky (60cmx60cmx50cm for my small set), so a single unit of mine is about the same volume has like 50+ game boxes. Hence transport from China->US is expensive and wasteful ("muda", plus the lead times for me are insane.
I've just found a new US manufacturer in the last couple weeks who has experience producing similar products, and can do everything from design->build->store->ship, so there's a lot of cost savings just by having a single company handle all that
August 25 at 7:12pm · Edited · Like · 1
I've found articles about the current movement of manufacturing back to the US, but not *which* areas of manufacturing, so if anyone has found links, please post. The closest I've found is:"And unlike the low-end goods with thin profit margins produced in China and other developing nations (toys, shoes, consumer electronics, etc.), the expensive and complicated goods many American factories now produce -- medical equipment, computer chips, commercial and military jets and oil and gas equipment, to name a few -- require specialized skills." from http://www.ibtimes.com/analysis-renaissance-us-manufacturing-real-maybe-not-what-you-think-1552997
Also, "domestic drilling" (ahem) has been partially responsible for bringing back manufacturing to the US: "The boom in natural gas production in the U.S., largely driven by fracking and other new drilling techniques, has led to a 25% decrease in gas prices in the U.S., contrasted with a 138% increase in China, Boston Consulting found." http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-returning-jobs-20140513-story.html#page=1
After hearing people complain about the lack of detail on the plastic models, I was wondering if anyone knows how the metal Max model compares in quality? In fact, what are the differences between the Max model and the standard VFs, other than the pose (if anyone has been able to see them both up close)? Just wondering if it's worth the high cost of buying one off ebay (I'm only interested in putting together and painting some VF-1s, not interested in the game or the rest of the models).
" - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke 
), although probably "same general continent" could be argued to be domestically for most practical purposes.
, plus the lead times for me are insane.
