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I think it ties to their ongoing poor general grasp of technology and broader communication. Since one on one methods (calling them, talking in person) are the best way to get in touch and have things answered, it makes for a bit of a feedback loop where they enjoy talking to a person and letting slip a little detail or two, and in turn, the person feels like they're "in the know" and have the inside scoop.

Both parties walk away feeling pretty good. And yet, somewhere in the distance, thousands of people clamouring for info are not only ignored, but some end up feeling slighted that they practically need to be 'buds' to get info. It's a clique'ish way of providing information, and not remotely healthy for what is supposed to be reaching out to broaden their fan base.

Dakka's highest participation point, according to the front page, was nearly 35,000 users online at once back in March of this year. PB's highest was 225 in April of 2006. Imagine this game is a huge success (somehow, I know, much like my controversial FFG day dream, stick with me here). Imagine even 10% of a population the size of Dakka's hits their forums, with battle reports, stories to tell, tournaments and leagues to organize, rants to share (fething overpowered __________'s!), conversations to have... that'd be a deluge that would change the makeup of their online presence irrevocably.

Hell, a mere 1% of Dakka's peak would still be 150% of their previous maximum! One percent, would be a tidal wave of new people! And presumably they expect more than a couple thousand players globally.

And with their glorious 'first few posts must be approved by a moderator', I can only imagine the sheer dawning horror that would come across the eyes of those working on it at the time.

Bad_Syntax wrote:
I think it would be absolutely hilarious if these huge complaints got an influx of cash in their bank account as PB said "Well, since you were so unhappy here is a full refund".

Good. They should. I imagine those people would be happy, since that's what's been requested.

I will be getting a few folks in my battletech group to play a demo *hopefully* next weekend, they are pretty close to "normal", well, as far as gamers go.

As a battletech player, reading these rules made me vomit in my mouth a little.

rigeld2 wrote:

Bad_Syntax wrote:
I think it would be absolutely hilarious if these huge complaints got an influx of cash in their bank account as PB said "Well, since you were so unhappy here is a full refund".

Good. They should. I imagine those people would be happy, since that's what's been requested.

I will be getting a few folks in my battletech group to play a demo *hopefully* next weekend, they are pretty close to "normal", well, as far as gamers go.

As a battletech player, reading these rules made me vomit in my mouth a little.

Come now. Certainly you'd always wished for parrying and rolling with punch rules in Robotech? Sure, the current set I have is about 1000 pages across three hardcovers...but that's because BT just doesn't have the streamlined, glorious simplicity of a Palladium Books system.

What's funny is that refunds are basically doubling their money at this point.

Think of it this way; a Battle Cry contains roughly $360 MSRP worth of stuff (core box, 2 VT packs, 2 battlepod packs, 1 spartan/phalanx pack, 1 command pod pack, 1 support pod pack) *in wave one alone*. Even cut in half, that means people paid $125 (after KS/Amazon's cuts) for ~$180 worth of stuff at wholesale (1/2 MSRP) prices, and again, that's before even glancing at all of wave two (which is like hundreds more).

So in exchange for giving people back $125, they get to keep $180 worth of stuff to sell to distributors/shops, or flat out $360 worth of stuff to sell at full price on their store. They could better than double their money with refunds, or at least snag a tidy 20-30%.

On wave one!

If they were really that excited, if distributors and shop owners were really gushing about how amazing it is, they'd take that deal in a heartbeat. And none of this "maybe they spent all the KS money already" bull. For a 150-300% Return on Investment (give or take a bit), they'd be crazy not to! They got the money up front as an interest free loan to produce the stuff, and then they toss the money back (minus KS's fees) and enjoy the extra stock they just picked up. Remember, they had retailers talking to PB about how concerned they were that RRT stuff would sell out! Hey, let a couple dozen backers out of the deal and suddenly you've got a little extra supply to move at a pretty solid markup!

It's crazy pants to not take that kind of deal! Even if they're whole sale selling in the 40-45% range, they're still ahead of the game, at least at my napkin math. Trading $125 for $125 worth of product extra to sell (possibly at full price) would be a fantastic deal! Purely a win/win!

... unless maybe, just maybe, they're not quite as certain as they like to say they are.

Maybe they just don't have the product. In all honesty, PB sometimes reminds me of Defiance, where the owner is a lot more talk than action, where they have some very overly dedicated fans back before they blew everything into ---- and supposedly, the owner of defiance was quite friendly and nice when people met him too.

You know guys, it just dawned on me, but this ruleset represents a revision of the old Palladium system in a way does it not?

 Swabby wrote:
You know guys, it just dawned on me, but this ruleset represents a revision of the old Palladium system in a way does it not?

Well, PB only has the RPG license for Robotech, and KS recopypastas everything so... sure!

Good point by Forar. Random speculation to explain why PB needs money: they may have made only a partial payment (cf. down-payment) to the manufacturer; PB paid additional fees for being late or making rush jobs; Increasing shipping fees; PB using the Robotech money for other company uses; PB employee using Robotech money for another crisis, etc. etc. Project management includes cash flow, and I don't think PB has handled this much money before. Just easier to say "no refunds" to avoid the *perceived* hassles of changing orders.

 Swabby wrote:
You know guys, it just dawned on me, but this ruleset represents a revision of the old Palladium system in a way does it not?

I think anyone who thought otherwise did not understand what the project was in the first place. It is called Robotech RPT Tactics for a reason.

 Mike1975 wrote:

 Swabby wrote:
You know guys, it just dawned on me, but this ruleset represents a revision of the old Palladium system in a way does it not?

I think anyone who thought otherwise did not understand what the project was in the first place. It is called Robotech RPT Tactics for a reason.

Goodness!
With the pages of discussions over the rules and comparators to existing tabletop games, I do not remember some direction of "remember we must be using the RPG rules!".
Many backers would have run screaming if that was made more clear.
It seemed the RPG stuff was little more than "guidelines" with hit points / damage being a factor of megadamage points but I guess seeing the rules when they came out it is all clear now.
So the "fun" of the old RPG is continued in tabletop "RPG"... utter genius.

Glad my friends are going all psycho on Battletech again, it may be a good comparator in the coming months.

I know I can be slow with things on occasion but I swear it was only in the last couple weeks it became clear that the Tactics game could only come out as an extension of the RPG.
You may point to the name giving a clue but I swear I thought it was just a way for Kevin to tie-in / point-to his RPG stuff since that is still where his heart and soul is at.

Anyway, I will play the full game (when/if I see it), play 3 games straight-up and then I suspect house-rule the heck out of it.
Forar: we will compare notes at some time and will need to meet-up for a game, it could be exciting to compare the "challenges" of the game.

 Talizvar wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

 Swabby wrote:
You know guys, it just dawned on me, but this ruleset represents a revision of the old Palladium system in a way does it not?

I think anyone who thought otherwise did not understand what the project was in the first place. It is called Robotech RPT Tactics for a reason.

Goodness!
With the pages of discussions over the rules and comparators to existing tabletop games, I do not remember some direction of "remember we must be using the RPG rules!".
Many backers would have run screaming if that was made more clear.
It seemed the RPG stuff was little more than "guidelines" with hit points / damage being a factor of megadamage points but I guess seeing the rules when they came out it is all clear now.
So the "fun" of the old RPG is continued in tabletop "RPG"... utter genius.

Glad my friends are going all psycho on Battletech again, it may be a good comparator in the coming months.

I know I can be slow with things on occasion but I swear it was only in the last couple weeks it became clear that the Tactics game could only come out as an extension of the RPG.
You may point to the name giving a clue but I swear I thought it was just a way for Kevin to tie-in / point-to his RPG stuff since that is still where his heart and soul is at.

Anyway, I will play the full game (when/if I see it), play 3 games straight-up and then I suspect house-rule the heck out of it.
Forar: we will compare notes at some time and will need to meet-up for a game, it could be exciting to compare the "challenges" of the game.

Well I'd read the RPG rules over 20 years ago and it was patently obvious. Anyone that I know that has played the RPG could see that. But that being said. The whole 8 different HtH attack and where those came in form well over 100 pages ago should have clued people in. The rules are not a direct port but much of the basics as well as all the unit stats are all direct translations from RPG 2E. The Main Body MDC/25 is the game MD. The Max weapon damage in a melee(turn)/20 is how much weapon can do. That's why I've said there was no way to do a "Minis" game. This is a port from the RPG to a tabletop game and is very carefully labeled as such.


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I plan on trying out with the Robotech theme
Mekton (Waiting for my KS Pledge)
Alpha Strike (Already have both books)
Heavy Gear (Not jumping at what I've read of the rules so far)
CAV (Just got the free early release rules from their KS)
RTT

Whichever one works best for me is what I'll go with.
Mekton--don't know yet
Alpha Strike not designed for Anime style fighting but will test.
Heavy Gear -- with all the detection rules could make for a long playing and tedious game. I hope not.
CAV -- been a while, will need to reread rules.

 Mike1975 wrote:

 Swabby wrote:
You know guys, it just dawned on me, but this ruleset represents a revision of the old Palladium system in a way does it not?

I think anyone who thought otherwise did not understand what the project was in the first place. It is called Robotech RPT Tactics for a reason.

And even so, this was the most publicited stuff...

http://damommasboyz.com/sodapop/rtsquadrons/battlecry.html

Kind of mixed signals there, don't you think?

 Talizvar wrote:
Forar: we will compare notes at some time and will need to meet-up for a game, it could be exciting to compare the "challenges" of the game.

Yeah, perhaps it's just a perception thing, but it used to feel like PB was shoehorn'ing in the RPG aspect. It's become clearer more recently that they *had* to do it, not that they *wanted* to do it. Then again, the end result is what really matters, so while it's interesting in an academic sense to see where they came from and how they got there, the pertinent issue is how fun it actually is, how fast it actually plays, etc.

Hell, at least they didn't go with their simply insane "attacks per melee" system. The "spend a command point, get to fire an extra weapon" thing glances at it, but that gak goes downhill quickly.

And totally. At the very least, get a little game down and enjoy a few drinks reminiscing over what was and what could have been.

Veterans of what may end up a 2-3 year adventure in shenanigans.

FFG. Man, that could've been a hell of a thing.

I noticed it was sold to backers as a miniatures game. Suddenly GC 2014 comes around and it's now an RPG inspired game. It kinda feels like a bait an switch.

 Forar wrote:
FFG. Man, that could've been a hell of a thing.

Let it go man, in that path lies madness.
My brain is still boggling over if they produced painted miniatures like in X-wing.
Then properly printed cards, punch-out tokens... let it go...

Yeah, the prebuilt/prepainted miniatures...

brb, finding Frozen song on Youtube.

Keep in mind that each veritech would have been $40-45 though... three modes/models for one "in game" model unless they resorted to using a token (least likely) or separate dial (more likely) to represent the actual mode it is in. Either way, it would be either expensive or visually inferior to x-wing... but the rules would be elegant.

Oh, that definitely crossed my mind, but that could be adjusted simply by using smaller numbers of figures.

I mean, small X-Wing ships often seem to fall in the $15 apiece range, but finding them for $10 isn't impossible. $30'ish for a single ship wouldn't exactly be great, but only eventually wanting to get ahold of 3-4 of them wouldn't be any more terrible than buying a squad or two of X-Wings really. Moreso if they had a similar Core Box with 1 VT and a couple Battlepods. It'd be more expensive than the XW Core (with 5-6 models instead of 3), but not impossible to run with.

Some simple pallette swaps like they're doing now for the Aces boxes. Yeah, there'd be challenges, but I don't think it'd be insurmountable.

But it is just a pipe dream, I totally recognize that. For good or ill (heh), we're stuck with what we've got. Hopefully having some in hand will given me more to talk about than wistful 'what if?' scenarios, but given that they haven't even started the single battle cry shipments yet, I suspect my group's double reckless will be lucky to even go out in October, especially with the container transportation situation.

From Kickstarter home page:

"Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is a fast paced strategy battle game that expands on the popular Palladium role playing game. Take command of the brave men and women of the United Earth Defense Force to valiantly defend Earth from annihilation. Or, command the alien armies of the Zentraedi Armada to recover an alien artifact of immense power and enslave humankind. Collect your forces from an expanding range of world class game pieces. Relive the massive battles on your tabletop at home to enhance your Robotech® RPG adventures or as a stand-alone game.

Well, I guess you read what you want to read in all this, when I first pledged I just thought it was Kevin unable to understand tabletop gaming.
Now knowing about their IP issues they tried so hard to say "tabletop wargame" without actually saying it.

So rather than chalking-up strange language from PB as being "stupid" I should look at it as a "game is afoot" and various shenanigans are abound which will be revealed in due time...

Yeah, will be looking at alternate rules I think purely out of spite.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

 Swabby wrote:
You know guys, it just dawned on me, but this ruleset represents a revision of the old Palladium system in a way does it not?

I think anyone who thought otherwise did not understand what the project was in the first place. It is called Robotech RPT Tactics for a reason.

And even so, this was the most publicited stuff...

http://damommasboyz.com/sodapop/rtsquadrons/battlecry.html

Kind of mixed signals there, don't you think?

I don't think so.

 Forar wrote:
Oh, that definitely crossed my mind, but that could be adjusted simply by using smaller numbers of figures.

I mean, small X-Wing ships often seem to fall in the $15 apiece range, but finding them for $10 isn't impossible. $30'ish for a single ship wouldn't exactly be great, but only eventually wanting to get ahold of 3-4 of them wouldn't be any more terrible than buying a squad or two of X-Wings really. Moreso if they had a similar Core Box with 1 VT and a couple Battlepods. It'd be more expensive than the XW Core (with 5-6 models instead of 3), but not impossible to run with.

Some simple pallette swaps like they're doing now for the Aces boxes. Yeah, there'd be challenges, but I don't think it'd be insurmountable.

But it is just a pipe dream, I totally recognize that. For good or ill (heh), we're stuck with what we've got. Hopefully having some in hand will given me more to talk about than wistful 'what if?' scenarios, but given that they haven't even started the single battle cry shipments yet, I suspect my group's double reckless will be lucky to even go out in October, especially with the container transportation situation.

Keep in mind that you're comparing apples (full retail MSRP) to oranges there (online discount retailer prices). In any case, the only way they could do it would be to make it too expensive with three prepainted models and movement dials for each veritech or take a short cut with a separate movement dial only for each mode. I'd actually be fine with the later but it would effectively increase the number of SKUs (they'd likely have to offer either 3 blisters or a "three pack" ala the "aces" xwing packs). If they did a three pack, I could see paying the $45 for it as you'd get three independently usable models and not three modes for one in game model for that same price. Each model would have to come with three dials as the movement options for each model *should* be vastly different. The cheapest way out would be to use one dial but have a restriction that battleloid can only use speed 1 and 2, guardian gets 1-3, and jet gets 2-5 speed maneuvers at which point you just indicate the "mode" with a token. I'm not particularly a fan of that though but it is possible. I've been toying around with various ideas for using the flightpath rules with certain battletech LAMs I'll be receiving sometime in the next 1-3 months.

 Forar wrote:
Oh, that definitely crossed my mind, but that could be adjusted simply by using smaller numbers of figures.

I mean, small X-Wing ships often seem to fall in the $15 apiece range, but finding them for $10 isn't impossible. $30'ish for a single ship wouldn't exactly be great, but only eventually wanting to get ahold of 3-4 of them wouldn't be any more terrible than buying a squad or two of X-Wings really. Moreso if they had a similar Core Box with 1 VT and a couple Battlepods. It'd be more expensive than the XW Core (with 5-6 models instead of 3), but not impossible to run with.

Some simple pallette swaps like they're doing now for the Aces boxes. Yeah, there'd be challenges, but I don't think it'd be insurmountable.

But it is just a pipe dream, I totally recognize that. For good or ill (heh), we're stuck with what we've got. Hopefully having some in hand will given me more to talk about than wistful 'what if?' scenarios, but given that they haven't even started the single battle cry shipments yet, I suspect my group's double reckless will be lucky to even go out in October, especially with the container transportation situation.

I've seen but never played X-wing so it'd be interesting to see how RTT ports over. Some are already planning on it. I can see another webpage or forum just for that purpose coming about in the next few months.

The RTT game does play really fast though. A few minor fixes for the tournament minded will hopefully show up soon. With the squadrons idea and sheer number of battlepods on the table I wonder how well the "Swarm" army will port over to X-Wing. I've noticed that X-Wing's Tie Fighters are not so much as a swarm as portrayed in the movies, just a small increase in numbers over the X-Wings. If the number of X-Wings to Ties from the movies were used the Rebels better all have ace pilots or they are simply outclassed. Having played both X-Wing and Tie Fighter on the PC I just don't get the same feel when I watch X-Wing games. Armada will hopefully be a step up.



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 Talizvar wrote:
From Kickstarter home page:

"Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is a fast paced strategy battle game that expands on the popular Palladium role playing game. Take command of the brave men and women of the United Earth Defense Force to valiantly defend Earth from annihilation. Or, command the alien armies of the Zentraedi Armada to recover an alien artifact of immense power and enslave humankind. Collect your forces from an expanding range of world class game pieces. Relive the massive battles on your tabletop at home to enhance your Robotech® RPG adventures or as a stand-alone game.

Well, I guess you read what you want to read in all this, when I first pledged I just thought it was Kevin unable to understand tabletop gaming.
Now knowing about their IP issues they tried so hard to say "tabletop wargame" without actually saying it.

So rather than chalking-up strange language from PB as being "stupid" I should look at it as a "game is afoot" and various shenanigans are abound which will be revealed in due time...

Yeah, will be looking at alternate rules I think purely out of spite.

They did show the beta rules during the KS. So honestly it should not be a surprise to anyone that the Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game. Nobody seemed to blink twice when the beta rules were released. If they had looked at those and seen the RPG rules they would have realized all the rest.

Guys guys guys, we should totally have read the beta rules and then read the palladium RPG rules, that most of us don't even have or want to get, just to make sure palladium was going to deliver a miniatures strategy battle game like they said they were going to. It's totally our fault for not double checking to make sure palladium didn't secretly change the rules to be more rpgish. Remember guys, in this world, no means yes.

Also totally being sarcastic here

 Mike1975 wrote:
They did show the beta rules during the KS. So honestly it should not be a surprise to anyone that the Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game. Nobody seemed to blink twice when the beta rules were released. If they had looked at those and seen the RPG rules they would have realized all the rest.

To whom? Please, show me where I was able to download them. As far as I know, only certain playtesters had access to the beta rules - you literally said as much yourself.

edit: Hell, you said yourself multiple times that you had to ask permission to talk about the rules you were playtesting. So what access did we have, actually?

Yes, every time you talked about the rules, people blinked twice. We said it was dumb, stupid, and a bad idea. And guess what we're still saying.

They didn't give us "the beta rules" during the campaign.

They gave us a "rules overview" that had some mechanical bits and was noted to be a Work In Progress repeatedly. Did it give some insight into the game? Sure. Was it enough to actually play with? Not at all.

Hell, the closest thing we got to that was the two page quick reference guide that people scanned from Gencon, which was nearly 3 months after the campaign closed, and still only touched on a handful of actual game mechanics.

 Mike1975 wrote:

The RTT game does play really fast though.

Based on the game play demos that Tom did I'm sure it's lightning fast. I blinked and nearly missed the game, and by "blinked" I mean: fell asleep for 3 hours and when I woke up they were still on the first turn of the game.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
They did show the beta rules during the KS. So honestly it should not be a surprise to anyone that the Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game. Nobody seemed to blink twice when the beta rules were released. If they had looked at those and seen the RPG rules they would have realized all the rest.

To whom? Please, show me where I was able to download them. As far as I know, only certain playtesters had access to the beta rules - you literally said as much yourself.

I think he's referring to the Rules Overview that was on the front page of the Kickstarter. Not really "beta" rules, more "proof on concept" rules.

 Mike1975 wrote:

Kind of mixed signals there, don't you think?

I don't think so.

Well, not much more to talk about.

How about this, then? Literally the first phrase on the KS page?

Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is a fast paced strategy battle game that expands on the popular Palladium role playing game.



EDIT: Ah, right, ninjaed >_>

 stanman wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

The RTT game does play really fast though.

Based on the game play demos that Tom did I'm sure it's lightning fast. I blinked and nearly missed the game, and by "blinked" I mean: fell asleep for 3 hours and when I woke up they were still on the first turn of the game.

Because someone else will note it; yes, granted, as I recall that was someone that hadn't mastered the rules, teaching other players who were entirely new to the game.

My first game of Malifaux with perhaps 20 soul stones (normal point total is 35 for the edition I played) worth of figures still took a good hour or two just to play a few turns as we were taught and looked things up, and that was with people who had been playing for a year guiding my opponent and I.

Ones first game isn't necessarily indicative of the end result.

But I agree, we've yet to get battle reports (that I've seen, at least) talking about running 300 points and finishing in an hour, as has been noted by both some commentators and ND themselves. Of course, it will likely be months before there's enough product distributed and assembled to really judge that, but the 'fiddly' nature of some of the rules (we've been over them at length, please don't make me go through this again) isn't inspiring faith.

 Mike1975 wrote:


I've seen but never played X-wing so it'd be interesting to see how RTT ports over. Some are already planning on it. I can see another webpage or forum just for that purpose coming about in the next few months.

The RTT game does play really fast though. A few minor fixes for the tournament minded will hopefully show up soon. With the squadrons idea and sheer number of battlepods on the table I wonder how well the "Swarm" army will port over to X-Wing. I've noticed that X-Wing's Tie Fighters are not so much as a swarm as portrayed in the movies, just a small increase in numbers over the X-Wings. If the number of X-Wings to Ties from the movies were used the Rebels better all have ace pilots or they are simply outclassed. Having played both X-Wing and Tie Fighter on the PC I just don't get the same feel when I watch X-Wing games. Armada will hopefully be a step up.

You're right in that the model counts are lower than in RRT but it is a dedicated skirmish game and it fills that niche quite well. It is meant to simulate the WW2 style dogfighting you see in the movies which it also IMO does well. Other than the attack on the second Death Star, you never saw more than a dozen fighters on any one side on the original releases (and IIRC only ANH as well with the 1990's redo with added scenes on the attack run to the original death star). In Xwing, a "horde" is generally 7-9 fighters in your typical 100pt battle where you can also take big name movie characters and field just two ships with special characters and upgrades at the extreme other end. Obviously the number of figs goes up if you play larger battles which plenty of people do. As for the computer game, I feel it does capture that spirit as due to computing limitations at that time you only generally had less than a dozen ships around at any one time... maybe 3-4 for the rebels and waves of 6-8 in two squadrons for the imperials. That is a judgement call though as xwing doesn't do "waves" officially like the life is cheap rule in RRT. In any case, xwing is good at what it does (a skirmish level game) but would play completely different if you tried to use all the figs in the RRT boxed set at once in a two player game. The rules are elegant and quick but they're detailed enough so that dragging in a dozen models would slow the game down to something almost unrecognizable. If you're going to play RRT with it, a single valkyrie squadron versus a bells and whistles zent squad with arty pods and glaug would work with maybe one more small unit from RRT on each side max would work. Anything more than that and I don't think it is a good fit.

Obviously I'm not sure yet about the RRT rules. There are plenty of things that really bother me which I've explained multiple times in the past to no apparent avail at palladium but I'm withholding judgement on the mass battle rules till I actually get my product in hand. I know that some folks like yourself have already played (plus the gencon folks) but I suspect the vast majority of backers are waiting till they get their own stuff (dare I say... 98% of them are waiting!?) to make their final judgement. In the meantime, Palladium and/or ND screwing the pooch on the skirmish side and "officially" removing the workable rules they had means I'm looking for another option for low figure count games. From what you said, RRT doesn't play well at the low counts due to the lethality so I doubt I'm missing much.

Yeah, if there were such a game, they'd need to rework the entire scope downwards. They could skip the 'hidden movement dials' aspect to save time, but at the very least they'd want to cut the numbers in half, and the point about cost could easily make bringing them down to 1/3 or 1/4. With the heightened cost of figures they'd want to keep it accessible.

Something that I fear RRT may risk pricing itself out of, even with CSI's usual discount applied, but that remains to be seen.