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2014/09/17 17:26:24
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
To my knowledge the Destroid change appeared on the Pledge Manager, was never publicized. Pledgers brought it up and discussed it. For me not a huge change and understandable but it should have been communicated in an update. I'll have to look and see if it ever was.
1 Mini size is the beta rules?
2 Size of the squadrons is the beta rules?
3 I don't remember those rules, but I didn't pledge until later. Sure, it has *roots* in the RPG, but that's a different thing than saying the "Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game".
4 ZOMG ORG CHARTS. Have nothing to do with the price of tea in China. Try again?
5 Yay more force orgs!
So the only evidence you have to support your statement that, and I'll quote it so I'm not accused of putting words in your mouth,
They did show the beta rules during the KS. So honestly it should not be a surprise to anyone that the Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game. Nobody seemed to blink twice when the beta rules were released. If they had looked at those and seen the RPG rules they would have realized all the rest.
That's not the "beta rules". That's a quick start, and it says on every page "Rules still in development and subject to change." Pardon me if I don't take those at face value.
Additionally, the rules presented in that quick start aren't that bad. Sure, there's a couple things I have issues with (specifically the number of HtH attacks) but it's not horrible overall.
So how about you (finally) get off your high horse and understand that what was presented is not what is being sold. This isn't the miniatures wargame with an RPG tie in (what it should have been). It's a bunch of crap.
Plus it also depends on what you consider Morphing the rules. Many would agree with that statement others not so much since that is a relative term. So if you want o read the RPG and then the rules and then everything else we have and be surprised that's all up to you.
You were the one that used the word "morphing" - I just repeated you. And you admit that your statement of "So honestly it should not be a surprise to anyone that the Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game." was out of line and incorrect?
And remember, you said that people shouldn't have been surprised because of information received *during the kickstarter*. So "everything else we have" was pretty damn limited. Robotech RPG Tactics does not (to me, or many other people) say "Here, have some miniatures to use our RPG rules with." It, instead, says "Here's a miniature game that you can convert your RPG characters into to help cinematize your battles! Plus, it works on its own!"
The "surprise" you keep referring to isn't there for you because - and you might not be aware of this - you had more information than 98% of the people backing this kickstarter. I know - amazing right? Being involved with the play test rules gave you more insight than what the rest of us had. Shocking. And when you reported how the rules were, what were the responses you got? Mostly surprise that the crap RPG system was so prevalent in RRT.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bad_Syntax wrote: - The rules seem pretty nice and well put together. The book is easy to read and the rules are pretty easy to learn.
- The game is not for folks wanting competitive tournaments. If you are one of those folks, and want to play RRT in big competitive tournaments, I think you'll be disappointed.
These two statements should never be together. Ever. Because if the rules are nice and well put together they'll work fine in tournaments.
If they don't work in tournaments, they aren't "pretty nice and well put together".
- Regardless of what I was told in person, Palladium doesn't seem to be learning from some of their mistakes, an that is disconcerting. I will try to call them this week and say "wtf?".
No way - PB has failed to learn? I'm so surprised.
Kinda funny that your even freaking out on this point.
I'm "freaking out" because you made a very insulting statement and haven't supported it and refuse to apologize or take it back.
I'm sorry if you or others did not. I won't feel sorry one bit since it was a far cry from just me figuring that out. All I can say is, too bad for you? Nothing was ever hidden or secret about the origins of the game. Even the opening video on the KS says that it's based off the RPG. So if this is a sore point, note that its a not something that many of us see as a surprise.
You... you do understand that a games origins have literally nothing to do with the rules it uses, right?
I mean - none of the Lord of the Rings games requires you to read a few hundred pages of a book to play (or watch a 2-3 hour video).
Again though, who gives a crap what the official name/nomenclature is when in fact in the end it is a miniatures game in fact. It's made and designed for large battles and ill suited for many other systems like Heavy Gear and others as has been pointed out. I pointed out the origins to show that the game would not exist if it had not gone through the hands of PB as it is today as a Tactics/Miniatures version of the RPG.
You keep bringing up the name as "DUH ITS RPG DUH" and now you're trying to downplay that? Really?
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2014/09/17 17:31:59
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
So the time the pledge manager closed was around GenCon, that is likely why the destroids deal was never added to an update. Not excusing them, just stating the facts. Poor communication has spoken for itself many times.
1 Mini size is the beta rules?
2 Size of the squadrons is the beta rules?
3 I don't remember those rules, but I didn't pledge until later. Sure, it has *roots* in the RPG, but that's a different thing than saying the "Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game".
4 ZOMG ORG CHARTS. Have nothing to do with the price of tea in China. Try again?
5 Yay more force orgs!
So the only evidence you have to support your statement that, and I'll quote it so I'm not accused of putting words in your mouth,
They did show the beta rules during the KS. So honestly it should not be a surprise to anyone that the Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game. Nobody seemed to blink twice when the beta rules were released. If they had looked at those and seen the RPG rules they would have realized all the rest.
That's not the "beta rules". That's a quick start, and it says on every page "Rules still in development and subject to change." Pardon me if I don't take those at face value.
Additionally, the rules presented in that quick start aren't that bad. Sure, there's a couple things I have issues with (specifically the number of HtH attacks) but it's not horrible overall.
So how about you (finally) get off your high horse and understand that what was presented is not what is being sold. This isn't the miniatures wargame with an RPG tie in (what it should have been). It's a bunch of crap.
Plus it also depends on what you consider Morphing the rules. Many would agree with that statement others not so much since that is a relative term. So if you want o read the RPG and then the rules and then everything else we have and be surprised that's all up to you.
You were the one that used the word "morphing" - I just repeated you. And you admit that your statement of "So honestly it should not be a surprise to anyone that the Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game." was out of line and incorrect?
And remember, you said that people shouldn't have been surprised because of information received *during the kickstarter*. So "everything else we have" was pretty damn limited. Robotech RPG Tactics does not (to me, or many other people) say "Here, have some miniatures to use our RPG rules with." It, instead, says "Here's a miniature game that you can convert your RPG characters into to help cinematize your battles! Plus, it works on its own!"
The "surprise" you keep referring to isn't there for you because - and you might not be aware of this - you had more information than 98% of the people backing this kickstarter. I know - amazing right? Being involved with the play test rules gave you more insight than what the rest of us had. Shocking. And when you reported how the rules were, what were the responses you got? Mostly surprise that the crap RPG system was so prevalent in RRT.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bad_Syntax wrote: - The rules seem pretty nice and well put together. The book is easy to read and the rules are pretty easy to learn.
- The game is not for folks wanting competitive tournaments. If you are one of those folks, and want to play RRT in big competitive tournaments, I think you'll be disappointed.
These two statements should never be together. Ever. Because if the rules are nice and well put together they'll work fine in tournaments.
If they don't work in tournaments, they aren't "pretty nice and well put together".
- Regardless of what I was told in person, Palladium doesn't seem to be learning from some of their mistakes, an that is disconcerting. I will try to call them this week and say "wtf?".
No way - PB has failed to learn? I'm so surprised.
Kinda funny that your even freaking out on this point.
I'm "freaking out" because you made a very insulting statement and haven't supported it and refuse to apologize or take it back.
I'm sorry if you or others did not. I won't feel sorry one bit since it was a far cry from just me figuring that out. All I can say is, too bad for you? Nothing was ever hidden or secret about the origins of the game. Even the opening video on the KS says that it's based off the RPG. So if this is a sore point, note that its a not something that many of us see as a surprise.
You... you do understand that a games origins have literally nothing to do with the rules it uses, right?
I mean - none of the Lord of the Rings games requires you to read a few hundred pages of a book to play (or watch a 2-3 hour video).
Again though, who gives a crap what the official name/nomenclature is when in fact in the end it is a miniatures game in fact. It's made and designed for large battles and ill suited for many other systems like Heavy Gear and others as has been pointed out. I pointed out the origins to show that the game would not exist if it had not gone through the hands of PB as it is today as a Tactics/Miniatures version of the RPG.
You keep bringing up the name as "DUH ITS RPG DUH" and now you're trying to downplay that? Really?
So the fact that YOU did not realize that the minis rules , from the time we had that early release of the rules update meant supported that the RPG rules have been the basis for Tactics is something you find insulting? Sorry, but that is simple fact. I did not mean to insult just pointing it out. The idea was there, information was shared, the title of the game said it, the early release rules reinforced it. I just pointed out that the information was there. No misguidance or foul intentions existed in the creation of the rules.
Now you saying game origins have nothing to do with the rules, often that may be true. BUT the Lord of the Rings games uses magic like in the books and has the same bad guys as in the books, the monsters have the same names and traits as those in the books. So again this is a sticky point for you but not for me.
I'm not downplaying anything, just pointing out that even though you missed it, the information was there and was never hidden or misrepresented.
Kickstarter --> Robotech Tactic Home Page - FIRST LINE on the page
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is a fast paced strategy battle game that expands on the popular Palladium role playing game.
The timing of the PM closing isn't relevant, because they clearly didn't just make that call in a snap choice. They answered questions about it, had it brought up (and responded to it), and even had multiple comments in updates on the VEF-1/D situation. They could have attended to it along with those, but simply didn't.
No idea why not, either. I imagine some people with a preference for one over the other, or for example getting 2 sets and hoping to do a 6/2 split, might be frustrated (especially among those seeking "Unseen" figures of specific types), but all told, it was a pretty small fry kinda issue.
They had over a year to address it and the closest they came to the best of my knowledge, is the "the PM is accurate" response.
Now, hopefully they were paying attention and made sure that kind of statement isn't on the packaging or in any product catalogs that might be included. That'd be bad.
2014/09/17 17:50:40
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Forar wrote: The timing of the PM closing isn't relevant, because they clearly didn't just make that call in a snap choice. They answered questions about it, had it brought up (and responded to it), and even had multiple comments in updates on the VEF-1/D situation. They could have attended to it along with those, but simply didn't.
No idea why not, either. I imagine some people with a preference for one over the other, or for example getting 2 sets and hoping to do a 6/2 split, might be frustrated (especially among those seeking "Unseen" figures of specific types), but all told, it was a pretty small fry kinda issue.
They had over a year to address it and the closest they came to the best of my knowledge, is the "the PM is accurate" response.
Now, hopefully they were paying attention and made sure that kind of statement isn't on the packaging or in any product catalogs that might be included. That'd be bad.
And if they did not change it they would get what they asked for. They periodically let "other" things have priority and forget about some of the details in updating us. The devil is always is in the details and will bite you in the ass if you don't try to share him with others as often as you can except when it is just not inappropriate to do so.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/17 17:51:39
Mike1975 wrote: So the fact that YOU did not realize that the minis rules , from the time we had that early release of the rules update meant supported that the RPG rules have been the basis for Tactics is something you find insulting? Sorry, but that is simple fact. I did not mean to insult just pointing it out. The idea was there, information was shared, the title of the game said it, the early release rules reinforced it. I just pointed out that the information was there. No misguidance or foul intentions existed in the creation of the rules.
So you "fully admit" that "not all people have the ability to make the connection" and yet "The idea was there, information was shared, the title of the game said it, the early release rules reinforced it".
Seems like you're contradicting yourself here.
Now you saying game origins have nothing to do with the rules, often that may be true. BUT the Lord of the Rings games uses magic like in the books and has the same bad guys as in the books, the monsters have the same names and traits as those in the books. So again this is a sticky point for you but not for me.
Nope - not a single thing about what they share is RULES. Does it really take me pointing that out?
I'm not downplaying anything, just pointing out that even though you missed it, the information was there and was never hidden or misrepresented.
It was mispreresented.
If I was the only one who felt like I was going to get a Miniatures game with an RPG tie-in, I'd let it go. Read this thread - that's demonstrably not the case.
Kickstarter --> Robotech Tactic Home Page - FIRST LINE on the page
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is a fast paced strategy battle game that expands on the popular Palladium role playing game.
Yup! Where in the underlined are the words I should use to infer that they're going to (essentially) copy and paste rules from the RPG into this fast paced game?
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2014/09/17 19:25:09
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Quite often. Breetai literally kicking and body slamming Rick's VF-1J, Spartans punching Regults. Khyron's Glaug flailing on a Valkyrie Battloid, and many other scenes.
Even more so in DYRL when Maximillian literally punches open a Regult and blasts the Zentraedi in the face and his skull bits go flying, when Kamijin kills Roy Folker, when the N-Gers capture Hikaru and Minmay, etc.
Robotech and Macross are full of close combats. If the ruleset had no melee, it would be pretty far divorced from the source material.
So have 1 "Close combat" attack! Do we really need a dozen different CC attack types in a flying mechas game? Do they add enough to the game to be there? And if so, why so many special close combat moves and only 1 attack type for the gunpods? (which arguably are the "hero weapon" of the show) Why don't they have single shot, short burst, long burst, Alpha Strike, walking fire...?
2014/09/17 19:32:31
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Keeping in mind that I didn't order this game, so my logic might be off...
I'm wondering if there's a misunderstanding of intent here. Assuming that Robotech Tactics keeps the same vehicle stats as the Robotech RPG (which is what seems to be the case, based on what others have said), and the same damage values, then the problem isn't whether or not melee exists. The problem is the relative ineffectiveness of melee attacks in the Robotech RPG game. An on-screen event along the lines of Britai single-handedly trashing Vermillion Squadron in hand to hand combat is impossible under the RPG rules because Britai can't do enough damage using the RPG stats and damage rules.
2014/09/17 19:42:13
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Mike1975 wrote: Being a port from the RPG the 4+ missiles thing was brought over. I don't like it but I can kinda see the point but I do agree that in Macross and Robotech we have seen mecha dodge 6 or more missiles.
Yeah, 6 "or more" ^_^
1:55 onwards for the fun
2014/09/17 20:04:38
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Keeping in mind that I didn't order this game, so my logic might be off...
I'm wondering if there's a misunderstanding of intent here. Assuming that Robotech Tactics keeps the same vehicle stats as the Robotech RPG (which is what seems to be the case, based on what others have said), and the same damage values, then the problem isn't whether or not melee exists. The problem is the relative ineffectiveness of melee attacks in the Robotech RPG game. An on-screen event along the lines of Britai single-handedly trashing Vermillion Squadron in hand to hand combat is impossible under the RPG rules because Britai can't do enough damage using the RPG stats and damage rules.
I'm not recently familiar with the RPG as I sold it all over 15 years ago (because it sucks, sucks so bad), but in Robotech RPG Tactics, Breetai can make three close combat attacks each turn and each one causes double damage with every hit, which is enough to single-handedly wreck a Battloid (14 MDC) just using two punches (4 apiece) and a kick (6) - not including the other bevy of attacks like Power Punch (which would cause 8 damage)
The Spartan also has boosted H2H attacks (+2 damage to all attacks, and 2 H2H attacks per turn) making the Spartan an excellent brawler, able to do more damage in H2H than with it's Gun Cluster and Lasers (especially when armed with a club)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/17 20:05:15
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
2014/09/17 20:07:04
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Albertorius wrote: So have 1 "Close combat" attack! Do we really need a dozen different CC attack types in a flying mechas game? Do they add enough to the game to be there? And if so, why so many special close combat moves and only 1 attack type for the gunpods? (which arguably are the "hero weapon" of the show) Why don't they have single shot, short burst, long burst, Alpha Strike, walking fire...?
As an irony, it's been a long time but they did have various 'firing modes' in the RPG for gun pods and such, although there was minimal reason to use most other than ammo conservation.
Working on someting you'll either love or hate. Hopefully to be revealed by November.
Play the games that make you happy.
2014/09/17 20:31:56
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
judgedoug wrote: [I'm not recently familiar with the RPG as I sold it all over 15 years ago (because it sucks, sucks so bad), but in Robotech RPG Tactics, Breetai can make three close combat attacks each turn and each one causes double damage with every hit, which is enough to single-handedly wreck a Battloid (14 MDC) just using two punches (4 apiece) and a kick (6) - not including the other bevy of attacks like Power Punch (which would cause 8 damage)
The Spartan also has boosted H2H attacks (+2 damage to all attacks, and 2 H2H attacks per turn) making the Spartan an excellent brawler, able to do more damage in H2H than with it's Gun Cluster and Lasers (especially when armed with a club)
Now, see, in the RPG, a Veritech has roughly 200 MDC in its torso (iirc, a TBP has roughly 50).
Britai and the Spartan, however, do roughly the same amount of damage as you described.
2014/09/17 20:34:29
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Yeah. I believe there was even a damage listing for a single round, but who ever used that?
And while it's been ages since I looked at my books, in most Palladium stuff, the difference between a "punch" and a "kick" was usually a very minor tweak in damage. That's it. Having "Punch, Kick, Stomp, etc" really could just be "melee attack", and a few of the other options could be tied into a rider of "pay a command point, make a melee attack, instead of doing damage, do X, Y or Z", where X, Y and Z could be a mix of reduced damage and a different effect like moving the target.
2014/09/17 20:43:01
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Quite often. Breetai literally kicking and body slamming Rick's VF-1J, Spartans punching Regults. Khyron's Glaug flailing on a Valkyrie Battloid, and many other scenes.
Even more so in DYRL when Maximillian literally punches open a Regult and blasts the Zentraedi in the face and his skull bits go flying, when Kamijin kills Roy Folker, when the N-Gers capture Hikaru and Minmay, etc.
Robotech and Macross are full of close combats. If the ruleset had no melee, it would be pretty far divorced from the source material.
Quite often? That's ridiculous. You can probably find several DOZEN shots of ranged combat for EACH melee combat shot in most every episode. The problem that folks who post here have is that it has been given a focus DISPROPORTIONATE to its importance and prevalence in the show which we suspect is due to just carrying it over straight from the RPG. Having a valkyrie with more close combat options than shooting ones despite the fact that the vast majority of time it does the latter and only very rarely does the former is the issue. No one is advocating a complete lack of close combat options but rather a selection that is simpler and more in line with the show, not the clunky out of date RPG. For a game like this, a simple light, medium, heavy generic selection of melee attacks would have sufficed with a varied selection of which each mecha uses dependent on the actual mecha. Veritech for instance could have had light and medium whereas a gladiator/spartan could have had all three.. but the raidar X (sorry can't remember the japanese name for it) just has the light. Failing that, a simple limb attack/melee weapon/body block would have sufficed as well in recreating all the scenes Doug mentioned. The focus on something so relatively unimportant (but not absolutely unimportant) in a Robotech game is just indicative of the myriad misplaced priorities of palladium.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/17 20:44:19
2014/09/17 20:43:48
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Now, see, in the RPG, a Veritech has roughly 200 MDC in its torso (iirc, a TBP has roughly 50).
Britai and the Spartan, however, do roughly the same amount of damage as you described.
So it appears through either deliberate planning or happy circumstance, the minis game is much closer to the source material than the RPG... which is absolutely a leap in the right direction.
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
2014/09/17 20:44:39
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
judgedoug wrote: [I'm not recently familiar with the RPG as I sold it all over 15 years ago (because it sucks, sucks so bad), but in Robotech RPG Tactics, Breetai can make three close combat attacks each turn and each one causes double damage with every hit, which is enough to single-handedly wreck a Battloid (14 MDC) just using two punches (4 apiece) and a kick (6) - not including the other bevy of attacks like Power Punch (which would cause 8 damage)
The Spartan also has boosted H2H attacks (+2 damage to all attacks, and 2 H2H attacks per turn) making the Spartan an excellent brawler, able to do more damage in H2H than with it's Gun Cluster and Lasers (especially when armed with a club)
Now, see, in the RPG, a Veritech has roughly 200 MDC in its torso (iirc, a TBP has roughly 50).
Britai and the Spartan, however, do roughly the same amount of damage as you described.
2nd edition changed the MDC.
Now 350 MDC on a Valkyrie, and 125 MDC on a Regult. Punches do a couple d4 or d6 of damage.
2014/09/17 20:44:49
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
warboss wrote: Quite often? That's ridiculous. You can probably find several DOZEN shots of ranged combat for EACH melee combat shot in most every episode. The problem that folks who post here have is that it has been given a focus DISPROPORTIONATE to its importance and prevalence in the show which we suspect is due to just carrying it over straight from the RPG. Having a valkyrie with more close combat options than shooting ones despite the fact that the vast majority of time it does the latter and only very rarely does the former is the issue. No one is advocating a complete lack of close combat options but rather a selection that is simpler and more in line with the show, not the clunky out of date RPG. For a game like this, a simple light, medium, heavy generic selection of melee attacks would have sufficed with a varied selection of which each mecha uses dependent on the actual mecha. Veritech for instance could have had light and medium whereas a gladiator/spartan could have had all three.. but the raidar X (sorry can't remember the japanese name for it) just has the light. Failing that, a simple limb attack/melee weapon/body block would have sufficed as well in recreating all the scenes Doug mentioned. The focus on something so relatively unimportant (but not absolutely unimportant) in a Robotech game is just indicative of the myriad misplaced priorities of palladium.
Sorry - not possible. You see, it's derived/morphed/expanded/copied from the RPG and therefore it's your fault for expecting anything other than RPG rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/17 20:46:18
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2014/09/17 20:47:19
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
I can only imagine the look on someone at Palladium's face if you get to take a backer up on that.
"They want to transfer a pledge."
"Yes."
"for 1/3 what they paid for it."
".... yes."
"......... uh oh."
Also, if the RRT 'damage' is 1/20 the max damage of an attack in the RPG, hopefully a punch or kick is at least 3-4d6, otherwise it can't even justify doing a single damage pip in RRT. I suppose I could go looking for the damage values in RRT, but eh, lazy, and about to head home.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/17 20:49:33
2014/09/17 20:58:47
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Mike1975 wrote: So the fact that YOU did not realize that the minis rules , from the time we had that early release of the rules update meant supported that the RPG rules have been the basis for Tactics is something you find insulting? Sorry, but that is simple fact. I did not mean to insult just pointing it out. The idea was there, information was shared, the title of the game said it, the early release rules reinforced it. I just pointed out that the information was there. No misguidance or foul intentions existed in the creation of the rules.
So you "fully admit" that "not all people have the ability to make the connection" and yet "The idea was there, information was shared, the title of the game said it, the early release rules reinforced it".
Seems like you're contradicting yourself here.
Well since nobody else chimed in I'm pretty sure you are the only person with an issues with this so I really see no point in arguing this any further. I never said the some was a large group.
Now you saying game origins have nothing to do with the rules, often that may be true. BUT the Lord of the Rings games uses magic like in the books and has the same bad guys as in the books, the monsters have the same names and traits as those in the books. So again this is a sticky point for you but not for me.
Nope - not a single thing about what they share is RULES. Does it really take me pointing that out?
If you could not see the connection there....sorry. Nothing I can to help that. Nothing I can say that will change this so I don't see a point in trying. Sometimes things are what they are.
I'm not downplaying anything, just pointing out that even though you missed it, the information was there and was never hidden or misrepresented.
It was mispreresented.
If I was the only one who felt like I was going to get a Miniatures game with an RPG tie-in, I'd let it go. Read this thread - that's demonstrably not the case.
Is that not what you're getting? What exactly is your definition of a minis game? I cannot answer for your expectations since I have no idea what they are or were. This is a minis game. You have rules for exactly that. They used the RPG as an inspiration to allow the license to go forward.
Kickstarter --> Robotech Tactic Home Page - FIRST LINE on the page
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is a fast paced strategy battle game that expands on the popular Palladium role playing game.
Yup! Where in the underlined are the words I should use to infer that they're going to (essentially) copy and paste rules from the RPG into this fast paced game?
Did they? I've read the rules and I see many similarities. I was unaware that the 2nd Ed RPG used 6 sided dice or have rules for moving miniatures. Again, not sure what your expectations were/are but that's nothing that I can help you with.
We can go back and forth many more times. I don't see anything close to a resolution or understanding here since I really don't see what you central problem is other than a general complaint that the RTT is based off the RPG.
Forar wrote: Having "Punch, Kick, Stomp, etc" really could just be "melee attack", and a few of the other options could be tied into a rider of "pay a command point, make a melee attack, instead of doing damage, do X, Y or Z", where X, Y and Z could be a mix of reduced damage and a different effect like moving the target.
I am an advocate of abstraction over granularity if the results are the same. Hence why I'm a fan of the (aforementioned) Bolt Action combat which is very quick and very decisive and there's no H2H combat over turns. However, many players used to more detailed systems like 40k are totally thrown off by it. RRT is obviously more complex than BA but the H2H is still simpler than 40k's # of Attacks at WS vs WS then S vs T then Armor Save, which is already is quite natural for many players. RRT just has several H2H options, many of which won't be relevant for models with only one attack, and many mecha can't use them all. I haven't even played yet and I've already memorized what each does - basically like memorizing the base stats for models in traditional tabletop games. Use it a few times and you'll know it by heart.
As a summary;
Body Block - great for positioning
Club - effectively an "attack with melee weapon", once per turn
Grab - great for restraining mecha. Can easily see this being used in scenarios
Kick - can only be used once per turn
Jump Kick - once per turn and costs 1 CP Punch - unlimited
Power Punch - costs 1CP
Stomp - can only perform if you have multiple attacks
A Regult can only perform BB, Kick, Jump Kick, and Stomp. Since Regults have one attack, Stomp is useless unless it's a character of some sort. BB only causes 2 points but maybe you want to knock a Destroid off a cliff? So that leaves Kick or Jump Kick. Jump Kick costs 1CP and causes 5 MD. Kick is 3 MD. Your Regult's particle beams cause 4 MD. There's not going to be many circumstances where you're gonna be flying your Regults into H2H.
the H2H attacks like Stomp, Punch, etc are really only going to be used by mecha with multiple H2H attacks which - correct me if I'm wrong - are only the Spartan and a few characters which get +1 or +2 H2H attacks. You may spend 1CP per additional attack - but that's going to drain your CP pool quickly if you do a Kick then a Power Punch, which will cost you 2 CP (1 to make an extra attack and 1 just for the Power Punch alone).
TL;DR while I agree that the H2H options are excessive but the majority of them will only be used by a few mecha or characters in the game, or during especially gnarly H2H combats. It's effectively one half of one page that contains a list of all 8 of the melee weapons and options in the game. Meanwhile almost every mecha has several of it's own unique ranged weapons systems; dozens and dozens of unique weapon systems versus a handful of generic/shared H2H attacks puts it closer to warboss' desire of "You can probably find several DOZEN shots of ranged combat for EACH melee combat shot in most every episode" desired ratio.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/17 21:10:37
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
2014/09/17 21:09:17
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Quite often. Breetai literally kicking and body slamming Rick's VF-1J, Spartans punching Regults. Khyron's Glaug flailing on a Valkyrie Battloid, and many other scenes.
Even more so in DYRL when Maximillian literally punches open a Regult and blasts the Zentraedi in the face and his skull bits go flying, when Kamijin kills Roy Folker, when the N-Gers capture Hikaru and Minmay, etc.
Robotech and Macross are full of close combats. If the ruleset had no melee, it would be pretty far divorced from the source material.
Quite often? That's ridiculous. You can probably find several DOZEN shots of ranged combat for EACH melee combat shot in most every episode. The problem that folks who post here have is that it has been given a focus DISPROPORTIONATE to its importance and prevalence in the show which we suspect is due to just carrying it over straight from the RPG. Having a valkyrie with more close combat options than shooting ones despite the fact that the vast majority of time it does the latter and only very rarely does the former is the issue. No one is advocating a complete lack of close combat options but rather a selection that is simpler and more in line with the show, not the clunky out of date RPG. For a game like this, a simple light, medium, heavy generic selection of melee attacks would have sufficed with a varied selection of which each mecha uses dependent on the actual mecha. Veritech for instance could have had light and medium whereas a gladiator/spartan could have had all three.. but the raidar X (sorry can't remember the japanese name for it) just has the light. Failing that, a simple limb attack/melee weapon/body block would have sufficed as well in recreating all the scenes Doug mentioned. The focus on something so relatively unimportant (but not absolutely unimportant) in a Robotech game is just indicative of the myriad misplaced priorities of palladium.
Or an understanding that the game must keep the idea that the connection to the RPG intact because the license requires it to a certain extent.
Forar wrote: Having "Punch, Kick, Stomp, etc" really could just be "melee attack", and a few of the other options could be tied into a rider of "pay a command point, make a melee attack, instead of doing damage, do X, Y or Z", where X, Y and Z could be a mix of reduced damage and a different effect like moving the target.
I am an advocate of abstraction over granularity if the results are the same. Hence why I'm a fan of the (aforementioned) Bolt Action combat which is very quick and very decisive and there's no H2H combat over turns. However, many players used to more detailed systems like 40k are totally thrown off by it. RRT is obviously more complex than BA but the H2H is still simpler than 40k's # of Attacks at WS vs WS then S vs T then Armor Save, which is already is quite natural for many players. RRT just has several H2H options, many of which won't be relevant for models with only one attack, and many mecha can't use them all. I haven't even played yet and I've already memorized what each does - basically like memorizing the base stats for models in traditional tabletop games. Use it a few times and you'll know it by heart.
As a summary;
Body Block - great for positioning
Club - effectively an "attack with melee weapon", once per turn
Grab - great for restraining mecha. Can easily see this being used in scenarios
Kick - can only be used once per turn
Jump Kick - once per turn and costs 1 CP Punch - unlimited
Power Punch - costs 1CP
Stomp - can only perform if you have multiple attacks
A Regult can only perform BB, Kick, Jump Kick, and Stomp. Since Regults have one attack, Stomp is useless unless it's a character of some sort. BB only causes 2 points but maybe you want to knock a Destroid off a cliff? So that leaves Kick or Jump Kick. Jump Kick costs 1CP and causes 5 MD. Kick is 3 MD. Your Regult's particle beams cause 4 MD. There's not going to be many circumstances where you're gonna be flying your Regults into H2H.
the H2H attacks like Stomp, Punch, etc are really only going to be used by mecha with multiple H2H attacks which - correct me if I'm wrong - are only the Spartan and a few characters which get +1 or +2 H2H attacks. You may spend 1CP per additional attack - but that's going to drain your CP pool quickly if you do a Kick then a Power Punch, which will cost you 2 CP (1 to make an extra attack and 1 just for the Power Punch alone).
TL;DR while I agree that the H2H options are excessive but the majority of them will only be used by a few mecha or characters in the game, or during especially gnarly H2H combats. It's effectively one half of one page that contains a list of all 8 of the melee weapons and options in the game. Meanwhile almost every mecha has several of it's own unique ranged weapons systems; dozens and dozens of unique weapon systems versus a handful of generic/shared H2H attacks puts it closer to warboss' desire of "You can probably find several DOZEN shots of ranged combat for EACH melee combat shot in most every episode" desired ratio.
Exactly my POV.
Hand to Hand is really not worth it except in 3 cases
1. A Zen or Malcontent player has another players destroids outnumbered and he can reduce their firepower by getting into hand to hand because they cannot fire in hand to hand combat and help their buddies and it helps reduce their overwhelming firepower. IF you are in range to move into hand to hand with a pod or two you are most likely to be better off sitting still and using the Focus Fire of the pod and Accuracy of the main guns so now you can fire your primary and secondary weapon for free and can hit easier. So you get a 50% increase in firepower and an increase in accuracy.
2. You have something like a FPA that is behind enemy lines that will die really quickly unless she does something to prevent the other units from firing on her. Zooming up a squadron of FPA and going HtH with a Mac II would be interesting since the Mac can no longer fire and the FPA cannot be fired on. The only hope for the Mac is some nearby units coming to the rescue.
3. You have units that excel in Hand to Hand like a Spartan and want to duke it out. A Spartan can kill two pods in a turn in Hand to Hand. It gets 2 attacks and each does 2 more points of damage. He can attack twice and kill 2 Regults.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/17 21:15:19
2. You have something like a FPA that is behind enemy lines that will die really quickly unless she does something to prevent the other units from firing on her. Zooming up a squadron of FPA and going HtH with a Mac II would be interesting since the Mac can no longer fire and the FPA cannot be fired on. The only hope for the Mac is some nearby units coming to the rescue.
3. You have units that excel in Hand to Hand like a Spartan and want to duke it out. A Spartan can kill two pods in a turn in Hand to Hand. It gets 2 attacks and each does 2 more points of damage. He can attack twice and kill 2 Regults.
2. Even then the RDF player can just pay CP to disengage the Monster, and then blast the FPA with some nearby Tomahawks.
3. Which is at least referenced in the source footage with Spartans duking it out in H2H (and then of course turn into a black smudge a few frames later) Though a club is actually 4 MD, +2, followed by a power punch at 4MD, +2 so yeah, 6 points per punch. So actually a Spartan can tear apart a N-Ger or Q-Rau with both attacks, excellent!
Actually, now I really really want to play a bunch of Spartans in a boarding action against Zentraedi armored infantry and N-Gers.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/17 21:29:26
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
2014/09/17 21:34:21
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Swabby wrote: There is no way that the rules system can be considered a decent simulation of the show.
If it was everything that wasn't a character would die in one shot, and Khyron would be capable of riding a monster into battle.
The show is so inconsistent, there is no way anything can be a decent simulation of the show.
On other news, I got arms glued together on my 5 guardians finally!!! Woah, those arms are freaking hard as hell to get together and positioned right. They *REALLY* should have been just 1 piece plus the gun or fist, ugh.
Only 5 battloids left, and then the fighter/guardian wing weapons and I'll be done!!! Well, I have the 2 tomahawks too, but all the half parts have been glued together and I may try to magnetize the torso, arms, and or missile pods on them, still thinking on it. However, they are far easier to assemble than the arms of the battloid/guardians, which are the hardest things in the game by a long shot.
2014/09/18 01:16:38
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Bad_Syntax wrote: The show is so inconsistent, there is no way anything can be a decent simulation of the show.
In that case a tight set of balanced rules would be preferable to a seriously flawed attempt at simulating it.
An easy accusation to make when one has
1. Not read the rules
2. has little knowledge of the units and how they play
3. has not even played a single game.
Before firing shots and going crazy why don't we try it first? I have and although it's not perfect, no system I've found has had that distinction yet. I have thought it a lot of fun and pretty well done and an accurate reflection of the cartoon. Just because there are no rules for Khyron not riding a Monster does not mean its a flawed system. You could pick out things like that for ANY system. Shoot, there is no way to do a lot of things like try to rescue a woman in free fall with a veritech in guardian mode or for crashing through buildings when you land. The Heavy Artillery Pods are too costly by 2x IMO but other than that everything else is pretty well worth the points that it costs in the game and hence balanced.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/18 01:47:42
, from the time we had that early release of the rules update meant supported that the 
I did not mean to insult just pointing it out. 
The idea was there, information was shared, the title of the game said it, the early release rules reinforced it. I just pointed out that the information was there. No misguidance or foul intentions existed in the creation of the rules.
BUT the Lord of the Rings games uses magic like in the books and has the same bad guys as in the books, the monsters have the same names and traits as those in the books. 
So again this is a sticky point for you but not for me.
" - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke 
