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Bad_Syntax wrote:
Well, since I am not real sure what I'll be getting, it'll be a surprise!

Still, what can you ask for <$2 per miniature? I'm surprised we have all the head/pose/weapon options that we do.

This is such a bad argument I'm surprised people still try to make it. You're basically implying "Hey, these things suck at RRP. For those who didn't get into the KS? It's not worth it"

 Mike1975 wrote:

An easy accusation to make when one has

1. Not read the rules
2. has little knowledge of the units and how they play
3. has not even played a single game.

Before firing shots and going crazy why don't we try it first? I have and although it's not perfect, no system I've found has had that distinction yet. I have thought it a lot of fun and pretty well done and an accurate reflection of the cartoon. Just because there are no rules for Khyron not riding a Monster does not mean its a flawed system. You could pick out things like that for ANY system. Shoot, there is no way to do a lot of things like try to rescue a woman in free fall with a veritech in guardian mode or for crashing through buildings when you land. The Heavy Artillery Pods are too costly by 2x IMO but other than that everything else is pretty well worth the points that it costs in the game and hence balanced.

1. No one is firing shots or going crazy here.
2. I have read the rules and found them lacking.
3. Knowledge of the units and their interactions comes with reading the rules. There are large holes in how units interact with each other in the rules.
4. I have watched more Macross in my time than is probably healthy, these rules reflect the RPG, not the show.

The system is flawed for other reasons, like defining elevation as a thing for LOS but ignoring it for all other purposes. The rules interactions that we have already discussed are not the hallmarks of a good rules sytem. The RPG that the game is based on is a terrible rules system, how could this one escape without suffering some of the same? And mike the monster thing is tongue in cheek, I could easily model a zentradi model on top of a monster and call it my command monster. People are arguing that the rules simulate the show, and they don't, they simulate the RPG, which only has basis in Kevin's ideas about the show. There are far better systems for simulating anime action than PB's system.

Sining wrote:

Bad_Syntax wrote:
Well, since I am not real sure what I'll be getting, it'll be a surprise!

Still, what can you ask for <$2 per miniature? I'm surprised we have all the head/pose/weapon options that we do.

This is such a bad argument I'm surprised people still try to make it. You're basically implying "Hey, these things suck at RRP. For those who didn't get into the KS? It's not worth it"

Noooo, a battlecry had 85 miniatures for $140, roughly $1.65 each.

The first contact (the retail boxed set) has 36 miniatures for $100 (though you can betcha you can get it for $80 pretty quick off non-palladium sites, excluding ebay), so still under $3.

Under $3 for these miniatures is *still* a great deal. The regults are nearly twice the size of a space marines, and the gulnau is bigger than space marine bike.

For the price, they don't have to be "GW Quality". Granted, I would have preferred paying 2x as much and getting GW quality, but I have 384 Regults coming and that in itself will be quite fun!

Apocalypse can eat me.

Sining wrote:

Bad_Syntax wrote:
Well, since I am not real sure what I'll be getting, it'll be a surprise!

Still, what can you ask for <$2 per miniature? I'm surprised we have all the head/pose/weapon options that we do.

This is such a bad argument I'm surprised people still try to make it. You're basically implying "Hey, these things suck at RRP. For those who didn't get into the KS? It's not worth it"

Yeah, I hate it when this comes up. It's literally "damning with faint praise".

5k players worldwide is a drop in the bucket. There are probably more people playing warhammer or x-wing these days in Ontario alone. If this isn't considered sufficiently valuable to be profitable, shops won't carry it (just like most don't carry PB books), and due to the book issue, it may even be more harmful, in that it will simply reinforce the belief that they don't produce things people buy. Shops (online and physical) discount bin things to get rid of them and free up space, and the only distributor eventually becomes the secondary market and Palladium themselves.

If we want this game to thrive. If we want opponents to be commonly available without having to hound or harass friends and supply the entirety of both forces ourselves, this needs to be a worthwhile buy for more than just the backers.

"Oh, they're a great deal at $2" does not help when they MSRP at $6-12 apiece and are for sale in the $4-9 apiece range (plus taxes and shipping as applicable). Even if that cost isn't horrifically out from the standard it'll be compared against, nostalgia alone will only go so far to draw in people for more than the entry fee.

And yes, luckily the Core Set helps start players off in the $2 per mini range ($75 for 35 minis, plus taxes/shipping if applicable), but much like people eventually want to branch out from X-Wings versus TIE Fighters in their 1-2+ core sets, dipping into non-core units is going to add up, and discretionary income only goes so far.

Shop shelf space is valuable. Online retailer warehouse/storage space is valuable. Distributor space is valuable. If this gak isn't selling, there are going to be problems.


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Bad_Syntax wrote:
Noooo, a battlecry had 85 miniatures for $140, roughly $1.65 each.

The first contact (the retail boxed set) has 36 miniatures for $100 (though you can betcha you can get it for $80 pretty quick off non-palladium sites, excluding ebay), so still under $3.

Under $3 for these miniatures is *still* a great deal. The regults are nearly twice the size of a space marines, and the gulnau is bigger than space marine bike

Incorrect.

A Battle Cry has 96 figures in it, 97 with the extra Battloid on the sprue.

Also incorrect; a Core Box has 35 figures in it, not 36 (12 battle pods, 3 command pods, 4 destroids, 5 VTs (15 figures) plus an extra Battloid).

But you are entirely missing the point; nobody else gets the Kickstarter premium. The good deal we got has zero to do with how expensive this game is going to be at retail, and at retail, a Battle Cry worth of figures would be something like $500-600. Maybe more, depending on how stiff the demand is versus the supply for the Limited Edition figures.

The Backers got an incredible deal. Those Showdowns and Recklesses may well represent literally thousands of dollars (just at Retail, more at MSRP) worth of stuff.

People buying in at retail (even heavily discounted sellers like Miniature Market) will be paying 2-5 times what we did, depending on the figures in question.

"Oh, they can just buy from all these whiny backers threatening to sell their stuff", some might say. Again, on a *global* scale that only goes so far. For simplicity sake (it's not perfect), let's call each Battle Cry worth effectively 2 core boxes with some leftovers. Even if every backer sold their packages on the open market, those 5k players might get 10k set with a light start to play small (150-300?) point games. Minimal force diversity, and everything left would be at the aforementioned retail prices.

This will not be a success if it that success relies on the value found in the Kickstarter.

So, according to BS argument, the current figures are okay cause they're in the Starter box and that's less than 3 dollars a figure. Okay, then my next question is this, will the figures that are not included in the starter be much better quality then? I think we have some figures in wave 1 that aren't in the starter don't we? I'm not too sure on this so if someone could clarify this, this would be great

I think the obvious answer here is that they are going to be mouth watering.

Sining wrote:
So, according to BS argument, the current figures are okay cause they're in the Starter box and that's less than 3 dollars a figure. Okay, then my next question is this, will the figures that are not included in the starter be much better quality then? I think we have some figures in wave 1 that aren't in the starter don't we? I'm not too sure on this so if someone could clarify this, this would be great

Correct:

The Spartan and Phalanx are not in the starter set, nor are the Support Battlepods (the light/heavy artillery pods).

The latter didn't really cause a stir when we saw stuff, though Palladium said they'd get a test sprue built up and never bothered to actually do it.

The former.. well... it is called "Spartangate", after all. The model was 'fixed' to a degree, but I remain wary.

 Mike1975 wrote:

Well since nobody else chimed in I'm pretty sure you are the only person with an issues with this so I really see no point in arguing this any further. I never said the some was a large group.

No one else has chimed in because arguing with you is often somewhere between shouting at a brick wall and talking to someone walking backwards with goalposts in their pocket.

Now you saying game origins have nothing to do with the rules, often that may be true. BUT the Lord of the Rings games uses magic like in the books and has the same bad guys as in the books, the monsters have the same names and traits as those in the books. So again this is a sticky point for you but not for me.

Nope - not a single thing about what they share is RULES. Does it really take me pointing that out?

If you could not see the connection there....sorry. Nothing I can to help that. Nothing I can say that will change this so I don't see a point in trying. Sometimes things are what they are.

I see a connection, but there's not a single thing telling me that THE RULES will be the same. That's what you literally refuse to accept. Yes, I saw a connection between RRT the Kickstarter and PB's RPG. It's what held me to so little in the first place.

Is that not what you're getting? What exactly is your definition of a minis game? I cannot answer for your expectations since I have no idea what they are or were. This is a minis game. You have rules for exactly that. They used the RPG as an inspiration to allow the license to go forward.

No, using it as an inspiration would be nods in the rules to the RPG (using MDC for hit points, etc). Not direct translations (ie direct conversions) of RPG stats and rules.

Did they? I've read the rules and I see many similarities. I was unaware that the 2nd Ed RPG used 6 sided dice or have rules for moving miniatures. Again, not sure what your expectations were/are but that's nothing that I can help you with.

Do you understand what the word essentially means? The fact that you see many similarities is the exact problem I'm referencing.

We can go back and forth many more times. I don't see anything close to a resolution or understanding here since I really don't see what you central problem is other than a general complaint that the RTT is based off the RPG.

My complaint right now is that you insulted people who dared to think that RRT's rules wouldn't be the train wreck that the RPG's rules are. And you seem okay with that. And blame them as if they had foreknowledge that the rules would be thus. It's a silly position that has no basis in ... anything really, but one that you feel is unassailable.

Sure, maybe if someone had the RPG fresh in their minds and knew how KS worked in general and knew that ND was going to have little/no input in the actual rules and knew that the "beta" rules that were subject to change weren't going to change (much) there's no reason for surprise.

Personally, I expected the impossible to dodge more than 4 missiles thing to go away. Who ever fired 4 missiles in the RPG? Anyone? Ever?

 Mike1975 wrote:
Well since nobody else chimed in I'm pretty sure you are the only person with an issues with this so I really see no point in arguing this any further.

This is a fallacy. It's actually not far off from the choice that garnered Palladium so much ire a month ago; assuming that those who don't speak up are on their side (assuming that people who haven't spoken up are on any side is ill advised).

Bad form, Mike. Debate the statements as presented. Don't hide behind 'oh, well there isn't a huge outcry so clearly it's not a big deal for anyone but you.'

If *everyone* with an issue spoke up *every* time that issue was address, this thread would be eighty thousand pages long and nobody would give a gak what was said because 98% of the posts would be "me too" or "yeah!' or "+1" or "nope" or "you're crazy" or some variation thereof.

Thought I'd chime in. We started this on the Facebook page.

Malcontent Dice
https://drive.google.com/?tab=wo&authuser=0#folders/0B0VSNzmthd1vc2dfbTAzdXlJQ1U

OK, so I showed Chessex the image that I would like and told them the solid opaque yellow colored die, they will work on a sample or tomorrow. Price depends on order size.
25-99 $0.75 each
100-199 $0.65 each
200+ $0.50 each or less.

Battlecry's come with 12 from each faction
Showdowns come with 24 from each faction
so if you want a matching amount...

I should have a sample run up to post a pic tomorrow. For a big order I could buy them and have you guys pay me for the dice and shipping and then I'd send them out. I'd have to figure shipping. Likely $4-5 or so with a bubble envelope. Maybe more, depends on the weight of 24 or 12 dice. That might not be necessary as he said if the order was large enough he still might work us a deal for all the added individual orders....that means they would give something of a discount and ship directly from their shop.

If you think another base color for the die or symbol would work better let me know.

Battlecry's come with 12 from each faction
Showdowns come with 24 from each faction
so if you want a matching amount...

So far then....
Mike Arnold (24)
Doc Brookshire (24)
Allen Morrison (24)
Chris Cole (36)
Thomas Roache (24)
Kiloden -- KS Comments (24)
Jaymz LaFlamme (12)
David Johnston (12)
Robert Wertz (24)
Peter T Pidrak (24)
Richard Klepper (24)

242 so far....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Forar wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
Well since nobody else chimed in I'm pretty sure you are the only person with an issues with this so I really see no point in arguing this any further.

This is a fallacy. It's actually not far off from the choice that garnered Palladium so much ire a month ago; assuming that those who don't speak up are on their side (assuming that people who haven't spoken up are on any side is ill advised).

Bad form, Mike. Debate the statements as presented. Don't hide behind 'oh, well there isn't a huge outcry so clearly it's not a big deal for anyone but you.'

If *everyone* with an issue spoke up *every* time that issue was address, this thread would be eighty thousand pages long and nobody would give a gak what was said because 98% of the posts would be "me too" or "yeah!' or "+1" or "nope" or "you're crazy" or some variation thereof.

This was not a debate. I made a point, he did not like it. Not everyone realized that this is based off the RPG, but the information was there, was never hidden or kept secret like a conspiracy. It's nothing I was involved in or could change. I saw no reason to debate something that cannot be debated and did not seem to be a surprise. It was not my intention to insult. If that was how it was taken sorry, but the facts speak for themselves.

It's a conversation and you proclaimed that since nobody else has a problem with what was being discussed, clearly it's not that big a deal.

Man, it doesn't have to be a formal debate with a moderator and a bunch of students in ill fitting suits to have fallacies in it.

There are literally over 7,000 users online on these forums right now. Decrying an issue because only one or a few people are commenting on it isn't doing any other points you might have any favours. Discussions aren't just for trying to sway the viewpoints of the people being talked to, but for presenting ones views to those who might be looking on. Lurkers and irregular participants alike.

Effectively telling them 'speak up or feth you' isn't winning any friends, even if it's not intended. Speak to those who aren't speaking, don't try to speak for them.

As I noted, PB tried that, and despite a 3 to 1 advantage in the results of their "poll", I'd say it generated a lot of ill will it didn't need to. Let's keep that cautionary tale in mind, especially somewhere that isn't remotely as optimistic about the product/company in question.

This was not a poll, this was not discussion. This was someone upset that I pointed out that the game was never advertised as something derived from the RPG and clearly unhappy with the results. Clearly from day one it was shared where the game got its roots. Many of us even here spoke of the conversions from the RPG to Tactics and how they were done. This was also done on RobotechGameCenter.com and in the KS comments and on the Facebook page. It's splattered all over the place.

Now how someone reads what is written and interprets it or fails to read it and interprets the situation is something I cannot control. The only other excuse would be coming into the KS late in the game and not reading over the main page and making many assumptions. Being human nature this is very likely since people see Robotech and jumped on it. What happened recently is simply this.

1. I pointed out the game had to be based on the RPG for licensing purposes.
2. That fact was disputed since not all believed it.
3. It was shown as to be true.
4. Person got upset they did not understand that the origins were indeed directly connected to the RPG for licensing the game.
5. People got upset naturally and since I was the one that pointed out #1 and #3 the frustration comes at me for them not seeing it.

I cannot change any of those 5 items. So debating them and getting upset over them will not have produce an outcome as I cannot change that they are upset and their view that it was not clearly stated. In essence I agree to disagree and move on and simply point out that the information was never a secret and that PB never purposefully misled people with respect to the origins of the game.

Since this thread is descending back to hyperbole;

Mike - please put me down for 12 of those dice, let me know when/where to send Paypal to.

Have you played any games inside buildings? I've got the sci fi battlesystems card terrain coming and I'd like to do the failed Daedalus attack against Breetai's Nupetiet-Vergnitzs with Regults battling their way past RDF mecha into Macross City.

And I don't mean to sound callous or like an ass but there simply are some things that I cannot change. This is one of them. You can never change an initial perception of something. You can help people understand the correct perception but if they are upset that their initial perception was not the same as mine that is something in the past and something that cannot be changed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 judgedoug wrote:
Since this thread is descending back to hyperbole;

Mike - please put me down for 12 of those dice, let me know when/where to send Paypal to.

Have you played any games inside buildings? I've got the sci fi battlesystems card terrain coming and I'd like to do the failed Daedalus attack against Breetai's Nupetiet-Vergnitzs with Regults battling their way past RDF mecha into Macross City.

Gotcha down for 12.

I'm still waiting on the Battle Systems stuff to arrive. :(

Man, you are just all over the place here.

We're conversing. It's a discussion. Unless you want to share emails from The Man himself, your statements of 'fact' are not immune to being challenged, especially when those assertions are tied to subjective matters, such as what people read into statements and information we were being presented nearly 2 years ago.

You keep using loaded language like "getting upset". You know what seems to be getting people upset, more than the 'facts' in dispute? Telling people how they feel. That right there is *obnoxious*. It was bullgak when Big Kev did it a couple of times in the updates, and it's obnoxious now.

A forum is a place of discourse. If you think that you can just Drop Truth Bombs and be immune to people pushing back with their own statements, you're mistaken. As someone with 'insider info' (early rules access, apparently lengthy discussions with PB folks) you may have more of the picture than many of us, but that doesn't make what you say The Word Of Law or some such, and imo puts an even greater emphasis on expressing not just your statements, but context and background information.

You're coming across here as not being interested in conversing with anyone, and if not, why participate? You have the potential to branch out to what is, frankly, a somewhat hostile environment, and draw people in to a game/series you clearly have passion for.

But time and again, from this to 'the great skirmish debate' to 'what's an official rule, really?' and more, you show yourself not interested in feedback, critique or opposing viewpoints. You just want to express yourself and have people applaud it.

And yet in the rules section there was work done and critique, feedback and considerations made and given, so you're capable of doing it, at least within the parameters you set.

Unfortunately, life is full of people who have no interest in staying within the tightly defined lines you or I might wish ruled the day.

As I said, you're better than that. But if you disagree we might as well just hit Ignore for each other and get passed dealing with one another at all.

FYI, the Chessex guy says they have around 500 in the yellow color so if we go over that or if you want another color.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Forar wrote:
Man, you are just all over the place here.

We're conversing. It's a discussion. Unless you want to share emails from The Man himself, your statements of 'fact' are not immune to being challenged, especially when those assertions are tied to subjective matters, such as what people read into statements and information we were being presented nearly 2 years ago.

You keep using loaded language like "getting upset". You know what seems to be getting people upset, more than the 'facts' in dispute? Telling people how they feel. That right there is *obnoxious*. It was bullgak when Big Kev did it a couple of times in the updates, and it's obnoxious now.

A forum is a place of discourse. If you think that you can just Drop Truth Bombs and be immune to people pushing back with their own statements, you're mistaken. As someone with 'insider info' (early rules access, apparently lengthy discussions with PB folks) you may have more of the picture than many of us, but that doesn't make what you say The Word Of Law or some such, and imo puts an even greater emphasis on expressing not just your statements, but context and background information.

You're coming across here as not being interested in conversing with anyone, and if not, why participate? You have the potential to branch out to what is, frankly, a somewhat hostile environment, and draw people in to a game/series you clearly have passion for.

But time and again, from this to 'the great skirmish debate' to 'what's an official rule, really?' and more, you show yourself not interested in feedback, critique or opposing viewpoints. You just want to express yourself and have people applaud it.

And yet in the rules section there was work done and critique, feedback and considerations made and given, so you're capable of doing it, at least within the parameters you set.

Unfortunately, life is full of people who have no interest in staying within the tightly defined lines you or I might wish ruled the day.

As I said, you're better than that. But if you disagree we might as well just hit Ignore for each other and get passed dealing with one another at all.

See, this was not due to insider info or something. The information was there and never hidden. People can argue that all they want. They can decide they did or did not read and understand it. On this point I think the matter is quite clear. It was there on the main page, there in the quick look or however we want to call it.

The debate is more on whether people saw the information and took it at its face value or not. Again how people took something and perceived it is not something I can change. To that end I choose not to spend another 20 posts trying to change something that I cannot and focus on things that I can. I do not see that as mistreatment in any way. Sometimes it is better to accept that and move on.

Thanks Mike! I'm fine with whatever color actually.

But have you played any "indoor" games though? Restricting Aircraft and Flight, etc.

 judgedoug wrote:
Thanks Mike! I'm fine with whatever color actually.

But have you played any "indoor" games though? Restricting Aircraft and Flight, etc.

Not yet, I was waiting for the Battle Systems stuff.

 Mike1975 wrote:
See, this was not due to insider info or something. The information was there and never hidden. People can argue that all they want. They can decide they did or did not read and understand it. On this point I think the matter is quite clear. It was there on the main page, there in the quick look or however we want to call it.

The debate is more on whether people saw the information and took it at its face value or not. Again how people took something and perceived it is not something I can change. To that end I choose not to spend another 20 posts trying to change something that I cannot and focus on things that I can. I do not see that as mistreatment in any way. Sometimes it is better to accept that and move on.

There is a difference between "that isn't how I saw it" and "fact; that's not how it was".

Even if you intended to state your views akin to the former, you're coming across as the latter.

Bullet pointed lists of Facts are generally not indicative of a 'this is just my perspective' statement.

 Forar wrote:

And yet in the rules section there was work done and critique, feedback and considerations made and given, so you're capable of doing it, at least within the parameters you set.

You know that separate Robotech rules thread was made with - by mod pre-approval and permission - specifically because this thread is nearly useless for actually discussing the game? On nearly every page is some veiled personal attack or people declaring they demand apologies (or pretending they've gotten one).

 judgedoug wrote:
You know that separate Robotech rules thread was made with - by mod pre-approval and permission - specifically because this thread is nearly useless for actually discussing the game? On nearly every page is some veiled personal attack or people declaring they demand apologies (or pretending they've gotten one).

Oh really?

 Manchu wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
I would like to formally make a request to the mods that a separate thread related solely to Robotech rules discussions be allowed to be created without being locked.

As we get closer to the arrival of the Robotech game, and with the entire rulebook available online to be viewed, I'd really like to discuss aspects of the game engine and not have to sift through the myriad volume of complaints related to the fulfillment of the Kickstarter.

I'd rather not just create a new thread without mod approval as it might seem like a separate redundant thread since this thread does have the occasional rules discussion.

Yes, this sounds like a good idea. Please go ahead and open a Rules Discussion thread in this same sub-forum.

Talk about Palladium PR, KS delivery issues, and miniature quality can stay ITT. Thanks!

Hey Manchu, can you confirm that the second thread was allowed because "this thread is nearly useless for actually discussing the game", as opposed to "it's a big enough topic to warrant multiple threads, and allow each to progress without people having to slog through piles of KS fulfillment discussion / rules, as is their prerogative"?

Because JD here seems to feel pretty strongly it's one way, and my possibly incorrect interpretation of the discussions that we have had over the last glorious year and a half lead me to think it's the other.

This thread is primarily for discussing the KS.

The other thread was meant for discussing the rules. But people keep posting ITT about how awful the rules supposedly are so I guess it is inevitable that folks who don't think the rules are so awful might also post ITT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mike I would also like 12 of the Malcontent dice. I will PM you as well in case this request gets lost.

It was good of Mike to point out that initial impressions or expectations happen and may go contrary to "facts" that may have been available.
I was one of those people who thought the rule set was in a condition for lots of input and available for change during the launch cycle.

"Based on the RPG" was evident and you have to start from somewhere, but I had the impression it was to be more like "guidelines".
Now knowing the legal side-stepping involved (till much later), the closer to the RPG, the better, to shield against "improper" use of the IP license.

No matter how "evident" this direction may have been, at the time of the kickstarter the impression was the game was not going to be in lock-step with Kevin's Robotech RPG
(which is not a great basis for skirmish I would agree with other's opinions, I did OK with it as an RPG only because I was used to it).

If I wanted Robotech models, I can buy them anytime and of better quality (maybe not at the same scale!), if I wanted Robotech RPG I already have the first edition books,
I wanted a Robotech tabletop wargame, not some unholy Frankenstein.

Other than the "deal" in models, I really think I would have never bothered with the kickstarter to begin-with if I REALLY knew what it entailed, which I think is exactly what PB was afraid of.

hmm for a minute there thought this was the KS forums.

I don't regret my pledge in the slightest, except maybe that I should have gotten more stuff (including the Battlefoam Bag).

I think the rules and miniatures are pretty good for my purposes (casual games with friends) and hobby skill level. I can see why people with pro-painting skills would prefer nicer models. I can see why folks who have the most fun playing in tournaments would prefer tighter rules.

Above all else, I can sympathize with people who have been put off by PB's hamfisted attempts at PR and the long delays. Agreed that PB has not handled this KS with grace and poise. And maybe the most vocal critics have accomplished something -- maybe PB would be even less transparent without their efforts.

That said, I feel confident the product will eventually arrive and, as I mentioned, the quality of everything is totally satisfactory for my purposes.

 Forar wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
You know that separate Robotech rules thread was made with - by mod pre-approval and permission - specifically because this thread is nearly useless for actually discussing the game? On nearly every page is some veiled personal attack or people declaring they demand apologies (or pretending they've gotten one).

Oh really?

Yep!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talizvar wrote:

"Based on the RPG" was evident and you have to start from somewhere, but I had the impression it was to be more like "guidelines".

This seems to be the current rallying cry but having read the rules several times - actually, dozens of times in some instances - there is very little similarity between RRT's rules and the Palladium Megaversal system. Some names are the same - such as the 8 melee options - but the mechanics are totally different. There's even a section on page 92-94 about converting RPG characters and data to RRT because the systems are not the same.

An apt comparison would be the Starship Troopers book versus film. They share the same name, some characters and locations have the same name, but are vastly different under the hood.

Unless I'm missing something major - could someone point out to me which page in the RRT rules is the RPG re-skinned?

If you want a direct RPG-to-Wargame ruleset, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 1st edition and Warhammer Fantasy Battles use the exact same stats (with BS and WS extrapolated to 100-based instead of 10-based), and is a more direct conversion than RRT is to RRPG.

uhh just a quick point for those who said the game is to recreate scenes from the show, it begs the question why play Zentraedi at all since they always lose, my perception of the game is supposed to be like 40K with equal forces on both sides duking it out, I didn't buy this game to play as an RPG but as a miniatures game.

Asterios wrote:
why play Zentraedi at all since they always lose

Zentraedi do not always lose. They just never succeed in capturing SDF-1.

Asterios wrote:
I didn't buy this game to play as an RPG but as a miniatures game.

Well you bought a game called RoboTech RPG Tactics. Fortunately for you, it is a miniatures game.

 Manchu wrote:

Asterios wrote:
why play Zentraedi at all since they always lose

Zentraedi do not always lose. They just never succeed in capturing SDF-1.

Asterios wrote:
I didn't buy this game to play as an RPG but as a miniatures game.

Well you bought a game called RoboTech RPG Tactics. Fortunately for you, it is a miniatures game.

They still lose, their objective was to get the SDF-1 and at every corner they failed.

Lots of battles make up a war.