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 Manchu wrote:
Lots of battles make up a war.

The problem is mate all their battles the Zentraedi lost, they failed to achieve their objectives which was their main objective which was to capture the SDF-1.

Their main objective was not their only objective. There are a lot of steps to winning a war. Furthermore "capture the SDF-1" is the wrong scale of objective for RRT. I mean, I could see capturing the SDF-1 being a campaign goal but not the result of one game.

In any case, your entire line of argument mischaracterizes the counterposition. To jog your memory:

 Manchu wrote:
A lot of historicals don't care about concepts like balance because they are primarily interested in simulation. Something similar is the case here, except it is a matter of emulation. The game is supposed to emulate the show. It's not so much a matter of, say, favoring the UEDF or something. It's just that the rules are or at least seem to be primarily designed to allow players to recreate what they experience watching RoboTech.

 Manchu wrote:
This thread is primarily for discussing the KS.

The other thread was meant for discussing the rules. But people keep posting ITT about how awful the rules supposedly are so I guess it is inevitable that folks who don't think the rules are so awful might also post ITT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mike I would also like 12 of the Malcontent dice. I will PM you as well in case this request gets lost.

Got you down for 12

 Manchu wrote:
Their main objective was not their only objective. There are a lot of steps to winning a war. Furthermore "capture the SDF-1" is the wrong scale of objective for RRT. I mean, I could see capturing the SDF-1 being a campaign goal but not the result of one game.

In any case, your entire line of argument mischaracterizes the counterposition. To jog your memory:

 Manchu wrote:
A lot of historicals don't care about concepts like balance because they are primarily interested in simulation. Something similar is the case here, except it is a matter of emulation. The game is supposed to emulate the show. It's not so much a matter of, say, favoring the UEDF or something. It's just that the rules are or at least seem to be primarily designed to allow players to recreate what they experience watching RoboTech.

Actually i'm a big historical player, and while History is used on units used, the outcome is not always the same since different strategies are used, but that's based on History, Robotech is not history, but Heroes, the Heroes never lose, they always win, so if we went by actual TV show history, with our own use of tactics and strategies as is used in Historical games, then guess what the UEDF is screwed, since the Zentraedi outnumbered the UEDF by a whole bunch.

So which is it you want to play? Historical or balanced?

 Manchu wrote:
Their main objective was not their only objective. There are a lot of steps to winning a war. Furthermore "capture the SDF-1" is the wrong scale of objective for RRT. I mean, I could see capturing the SDF-1 being a campaign goal but not the result of one game.

In any case, your entire line of argument mischaracterizes the counterposition. To jog your memory:

 Manchu wrote:
A lot of historicals don't care about concepts like balance because they are primarily interested in simulation. Something similar is the case here, except it is a matter of emulation. The game is supposed to emulate the show. It's not so much a matter of, say, favoring the UEDF or something. It's just that the rules are or at least seem to be primarily designed to allow players to recreate what they experience watching RoboTech.

I always wondered why the Zentraedi did not just send a massive wave of Battlepods all at once and simply overwhelm the crew. They would have had heavy losses but what are those when compared to the Imperative.

Asterios wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Lots of battles make up a war.

The problem is mate all their battles the Zentraedi lost, they failed to achieve their objectives which was their main objective which was to capture the SDF-1.

The objective of capturing the SDF-1 did not span all of Macross.

We see the Zentraedi accomplish many objectives, actually. When Breetai's Imperial-class fleet of one million ships plus the SDF-1 fought Dolza's Grand Fleet of 4.8 million ships in Earth orbit, the Zentraedi on Breetai's side won. Miriya successfully planted the spies aboard the SDF-1. The 13,600 Rineunadou Lojmeuean Monitor ships in Dolza's Grand Fleet succeeded in the reduction of Earth's populace and neutralizing all ground-based military forces. Khryon succeeded in capturing Minmei, succeeded in his terrorist strikes on New Macross City, and finally overwhelming and destroying the SDF-1 _despite_ every major RDF hero being present and attempting to stop him.

 Mike1975 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Their main objective was not their only objective. There are a lot of steps to winning a war. Furthermore "capture the SDF-1" is the wrong scale of objective for RRT. I mean, I could see capturing the SDF-1 being a campaign goal but not the result of one game.

In any case, your entire line of argument mischaracterizes the counterposition. To jog your memory:

 Manchu wrote:
A lot of historicals don't care about concepts like balance because they are primarily interested in simulation. Something similar is the case here, except it is a matter of emulation. The game is supposed to emulate the show. It's not so much a matter of, say, favoring the UEDF or something. It's just that the rules are or at least seem to be primarily designed to allow players to recreate what they experience watching RoboTech.

I always wondered why the Zentraedi did not just send a massive wave of Battlepods all at once and simply overwhelm the crew. They would have had heavy losses but what are those when compared to the Imperative.

For the same reason that only one or two Putty's from Power Rangers would attack at a time...

Throwback Thursday, anyone?!

This strange idea that 'Balance' and 'Historicity' or 'Atmosphere' are at all related is something I simply do not understand. Balance and tournament-worthy rules have NO downsides whatsoever. They make games clearer, more fair for when you're playing for an even challenge between both players, and result in less ambiguity.

If you want to simulate some sort of scene from a show or movie where one side is more powerful, GIVE THEM MORE POINTS. That's it. But when you want a completely equal battle, balance is absolutely vital.

Likewise, Balance does not reduce your tactical options. In fact, it increases them by never leaving 'useless' or 'subpar' options, and giving everything a purpose. It only requires competence in design, which admittedly, Palladium lacks in spades.

 judgedoug wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Lots of battles make up a war.

The problem is mate all their battles the Zentraedi lost, they failed to achieve their objectives which was their main objective which was to capture the SDF-1.

The objective of capturing the SDF-1 did not span all of Macross.

We see the Zentraedi accomplish many objectives, actually. When Breetai's Imperial-class fleet of one million ships plus the SDF-1 fought Dolza's Grand Fleet of 4.8 million ships in Earth orbit, the Zentraedi on Breetai's side won. Miriya successfully planted the spies aboard the SDF-1. The 13,600 Rineunadou Lojmeuean Monitor ships in Dolza's Grand Fleet succeeded in the reduction of Earth's populace and neutralizing all ground-based military forces. Khryon succeeded in capturing Minmei, succeeded in his terrorist strikes on New Macross City, and finally overwhelming and destroying the SDF-1 _despite_ every major RDF hero being present and attempting to stop him.

And yet when they won they didn't win, when the Zentraedi fought with the SDF-1 they were on the Heroes side, the spies success was the failure of Breetai's fleet, any possible successes the Zentraedi had was to push the Heroes greater success.

also Judgedoug I see your buying BattleCry's at $50 a pop, me I'll go better and offer $51 a pop for BattleCry's, why just because I can.

Asterios wrote:

And yet when they won they didn't win, when the Zentraedi fought with the SDF-1 they were on the Heroes side, the spies success was the failure of Breetai's fleet, any possible successes the Zentraedi had was to push the Heroes greater success.

I dunno, the legacy of the Zentraedi made it easy for Earth to be overrun by the Masters and then conquered by the Invid. Seems pretty lasting. Without the destruction of most of the population and industrial might of the Earth, the RED/ASC/REF might have been able to forge a human Empire - or to just take over the Masters' empire and contain the Invid.

But what is your argument again? That Shoji Kawamori wrote a storyline where the heroes win? Of course, it's also an anime where physics don't apply (especially regarding hero hairdos). But if I'm feeling like I need to be particularly grounded in reality, I'll watch Votoms.

also Judgedoug I see your buying BattleCry's at $50 a pop, me I'll go better and offer $51 a pop for BattleCry's, why just because I can.

I wish you success!

 judgedoug wrote:

Asterios wrote:

And yet when they won they didn't win, when the Zentraedi fought with the SDF-1 they were on the Heroes side, the spies success was the failure of Breetai's fleet, any possible successes the Zentraedi had was to push the Heroes greater success.

I dunno, the legacy of the Zentraedi made it easy for Earth to be overrun by the Masters and then conquered by the Invid. Seems pretty lasting. Without the destruction of most of the population and industrial might of the Earth, the RED/ASC/REF might have been able to forge a human Empire - or to just take over the Masters' empire and contain the Invid.

But what is your argument again? That Shoji Kawamori wrote a storyline where the heroes win? Of course, it's also an anime where physics don't apply (especially regarding hero hairdos). But if I'm feeling like I need to be particularly grounded in reality, I'll watch Votoms.

also Judgedoug I see your buying BattleCry's at $50 a pop, me I'll go better and offer $51 a pop for BattleCry's, why just because I can.

I wish you success!

But that's the point, if we went by the show, and gave the zentraedi as many mechs and ships as possible while the UEDF is limited to what they had, the UEDF should never have won, they should have been obliterated, yet a "Balanced" game removes that factor and leaves a possibility of either side winning, going by what was in the show would make the game unbalanced no matter how you look at it, balanced is the only way to make the game enjoyable, you want to play based on the show, then make dioramas.

The Malcontent Dice we were looking at. Looks like we might go over 500 total. If we do, do you have any color preference other than that shown? I was thinking Green with Black markings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The fist is in place of the #6 just in case.

Asterios wrote:

But that's the point, if we went by the show, and gave the zentraedi as many mechs and ships as possible while the UEDF is limited to what they had, the UEDF should never have won, they should have been obliterated, yet a "Balanced" game removes that factor and leaves a possibility of either side winning, going by what was in the show would make the game unbalanced no matter how you look at it, balanced is the only way to make the game enjoyable, you want to play based on the show, then make dioramas.

The same argument can be made for nearly every wargame. Why play WW2 games? What's the point - the Allies won. Why play Vietnam wargames? The US overwhelmingly won the majority of battles but still lost the war. We already know what happened. But we play wargames because it's fun to roll dice and move toy soldiers around. It's fun to play "pick up battles" between (the totally absurd concept of) "balanced" forces, but it's also fun to recreate scenarios where the USA outnumbered the CSA by a hefty margin in the Second Battle of Bull Run (aka, not "balanced points" forces!) but were still defeated.

Totally unbalanced games - aka scenarios - are equally as fun as "points balanced" games. Many games specifically do not include "points" or any attempt to "balance" armies for this reason, as the concept of "balanced forces" has never existed in warfare throughout history.

http://www.chessex.com/Dice/Gemini/GreenRed.htm

 judgedoug wrote:

Asterios wrote:

But that's the point, if we went by the show, and gave the zentraedi as many mechs and ships as possible while the UEDF is limited to what they had, the UEDF should never have won, they should have been obliterated, yet a "Balanced" game removes that factor and leaves a possibility of either side winning, going by what was in the show would make the game unbalanced no matter how you look at it, balanced is the only way to make the game enjoyable, you want to play based on the show, then make dioramas.

The same argument can be made for nearly every wargame. Why play WW2 games? What's the point - the Allies won. Why play Vietnam wargames? The US overwhelmingly won the majority of battles but still lost the war. We already know what happened. But we play wargames because it's fun to roll dice and move toy soldiers around. It's fun to play "pick up battles" between (the totally absurd concept of) "balanced" forces, but it's also fun to recreate scenarios where the USA outnumbered the CSA by a hefty margin in the Second Battle of Bull Run (aka, not "balanced points" forces!) but were still defeated.

Totally unbalanced games - aka scenarios - are equally as fun as "points balanced" games. Many games specifically do not include "points" or any attempt to "balance" armies for this reason, as the concept of "balanced forces" has never existed in warfare throughout history.

The big difference between those historical scenarios and this one is numbers, the Zentraedi didn't outnumber the UEDF by 2 or 3 or even 4 times the amount, but by hundreds if not thousands times the amount of the UEDF, if we go by History, then the Zentraedi could rush the UEDF and SDF-1 game over.

Asterios wrote:

The big difference between those historical scenarios and this one is numbers, the Zentraedi didn't outnumber the UEDF by 2 or 3 or even 4 times the amount, but by hundreds if not thousands times the amount of the UEDF, if we go by History, then the Zentraedi could rush the UEDF and SDF-1 game over.

But then when we do go by "history" the Zentraedi never attempted to destroy the SDF-1 until Dolza made the decision to destroy it (and Breetai and the 1 million "infected" ships), so the point is moot...

 judgedoug wrote:

Asterios wrote:

The big difference between those historical scenarios and this one is numbers, the Zentraedi didn't outnumber the UEDF by 2 or 3 or even 4 times the amount, but by hundreds if not thousands times the amount of the UEDF, if we go by History, then the Zentraedi could rush the UEDF and SDF-1 game over.

But then when we do go by "history" the Zentraedi never attempted to destroy the SDF-1 until Dolza made the decision to destroy it (and Breetai and the 1 million "infected" ships), so the point is moot...

No but they were trying to capture it, historically speaking I would have wiped out all UEDF forces and then dropped some MPA's and FPA's into the ship to remove any left over resistance, and walla, the Zentraedi have the ship.

The Zentraedi did not win the day because a war like race for some reason did not understand sound strategy, because of mighty heroes in the UEDF.

Asterios wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

Asterios wrote:

The big difference between those historical scenarios and this one is numbers, the Zentraedi didn't outnumber the UEDF by 2 or 3 or even 4 times the amount, but by hundreds if not thousands times the amount of the UEDF, if we go by History, then the Zentraedi could rush the UEDF and SDF-1 game over.

But then when we do go by "history" the Zentraedi never attempted to destroy the SDF-1 until Dolza made the decision to destroy it (and Breetai and the 1 million "infected" ships), so the point is moot...

No but they were trying to capture it, historically speaking I would have wiped out all UEDF forces and then dropped some MPA's and FPA's into the ship to remove any left over resistance, and walla, the Zentraedi have the ship.

The Zentraedi did not win the day because a war like race for some reason did not understand sound strategy, because of mighty heroes in the UEDF.

Plus it would have made for a short and boring cartoon if they did that and we'd never even be here discussing it.

Asterios wrote:
Robotech is not history, but Heroes, the Heroes never lose, they always win, so if we went by actual TV show history

You are confusing reenacting a TV show with playing a game that emulates the theme of that TV show.

So, out of curiosity, how many times do things gun other things down at point blank range?

Why do I ask?

... no reason. >.>

 Manchu wrote:

Asterios wrote:
Robotech is not history, but Heroes, the Heroes never lose, they always win, so if we went by actual TV show history

You are confusing reenacting a TV show with playing a game that emulates the theme of that TV show.

no when you consider if I emulate the theme of the show I as the Zentraedi would have thousands upon thousands of mecha and such, while the UEDF could only have like a few hundred mecha, which would make a game very unbalanced.

 Mike1975 wrote:
If we do, do you have any color preference other than that shown?

The style should match the dice in the box set but the color should be significantly different so as not to get confused.

Can someone remind me the box set colors?

UEDF - white dice, red pips

Zentraedi - purple dice, yellow pips (or vice versa?)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asterios wrote:
no when you consider if I emulate the theme of the show

We seem to be on entirely different wave lengths. What I am suggesting is that the game is supposed to be modeled after the feel of the show in terms of pace and action. I am not suggesting nor have I ever suggested anything remotely close to the outright reenactment of the show you insist upon.

 Manchu wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asterios wrote:
no when you consider if I emulate the theme of the show

We seem to be on entirely different wave lengths. What I am suggesting is that the game is supposed to be modeled after the feel of the show in terms of pace and action. I am not suggesting nor have I ever suggested anything remotely close to the outright reenactment of the show you insist upon.

yeah my bad confused you with judgedoug, I'm all for the feel of the show as long as the game is balanced.

 Manchu wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
If we do, do you have any color preference other than that shown?

The style should match the dice in the box set but the color should be significantly different so as not to get confused.

Can someone remind me the box set colors?

UEDF - white dice, red pips

Zentraedi - purple dice, yellow pips (or vice versa?)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asterios wrote:
no when you consider if I emulate the theme of the show

We seem to be on entirely different wave lengths. What I am suggesting is that the game is supposed to be modeled after the feel of the show in terms of pace and action. I am not suggesting nor have I ever suggested anything remotely close to the outright reenactment of the show you insist upon.

I had the yellow and black seeing that appropriate for the Malcontents BUT Chessex told me the only have 500 of those available so at this rate we might need a second color.

A few options
http://www.chessex.com/Dice/Gemini/GreenRed.htm
http://www.chessex.com/Dice/Opaque%20Dice/25407.htm
http://www.chessex.com/Dice/Opaque%20Dice/25403.htm
http://www.chessex.com/Dice/Opaque%20Dice/25404.htm
http://www.chessex.com/Dice/Opaque%20Dice/25414.htm

These will keep the solid color from the other dice except the first option but allow for something similar to what you would expect from the game.

 Mike1975 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
If we do, do you have any color preference other than that shown?

The style should match the dice in the box set but the color should be significantly different so as not to get confused.

Can someone remind me the box set colors?

UEDF - white dice, red pips

Zentraedi - purple dice, yellow pips (or vice versa?)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asterios wrote:
no when you consider if I emulate the theme of the show

We seem to be on entirely different wave lengths. What I am suggesting is that the game is supposed to be modeled after the feel of the show in terms of pace and action. I am not suggesting nor have I ever suggested anything remotely close to the outright reenactment of the show you insist upon.

I had the yellow and black seeing that appropriate for the Malcontents BUT Chessex told me the only have 500 of those available so at this rate we might need a second color.

A few options
http://www.chessex.com/Dice/Gemini/GreenRed.htm
http://www.chessex.com/Dice/Opaque%20Dice/25407.htm
http://www.chessex.com/Dice/Opaque%20Dice/25403.htm
http://www.chessex.com/Dice/Opaque%20Dice/25404.htm
http://www.chessex.com/Dice/Opaque%20Dice/25414.htm

These will keep the solid color from the other dice except the first option but allow for something similar to what you would expect from the game.

are these Malcontent dice you designed or already designed dice by Chessex ?

Definitely NOT red/green gemini -- unless you want a "Malcontent Christmas."

I like yellow opaque with black pips the best. Second choice would be orange opaque w/black pips.

Actually green opaque with yellow pips would be pretty dang cool. I don't know if that's an option, however.

Asterios wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
If we do, do you have any color preference other than that shown?

The style should match the dice in the box set but the color should be significantly different so as not to get confused.

Can someone remind me the box set colors?

UEDF - white dice, red pips

Zentraedi - purple dice, yellow pips (or vice versa?)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asterios wrote:
no when you consider if I emulate the theme of the show

We seem to be on entirely different wave lengths. What I am suggesting is that the game is supposed to be modeled after the feel of the show in terms of pace and action. I am not suggesting nor have I ever suggested anything remotely close to the outright reenactment of the show you insist upon.

I had the yellow and black seeing that appropriate for the Malcontents BUT Chessex told me the only have 500 of those available so at this rate we might need a second color.

A few options
http://www.chessex.com/Dice/Gemini/GreenRed.htm
http://www.chessex.com/Dice/Opaque%20Dice/25407.htm
http://www.chessex.com/Dice/Opaque%20Dice/25403.htm
http://www.chessex.com/Dice/Opaque%20Dice/25404.htm
http://www.chessex.com/Dice/Opaque%20Dice/25414.htm

These will keep the solid color from the other dice except the first option but allow for something similar to what you would expect from the game.

are these Malcontent dice you designed or already designed dice by Chessex ?

Here are pics of the sample they made for me. The problem is they only have around 500 in stock. If we go over 500 we will likely need to choose a second color for some of the people that order. I want the yellow ones. The "Fist" is a generic fist from the internet. Close enough but not the same one as from the Game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Definitely NOT red/green gemini -- unless you want a "Malcontent Christmas."

I like yellow opaque with black pips the best. Second choice would be orange opaque w/black pips.

Actually green opaque with yellow pips would be pretty dang cool. I don't know if that's an option, however.

I'll email him and ask.

Also I cannot stress this enough the symbol should replace the SIX side rather than the ONE side.

A generic yellow dice with a black fist? At least you'll be able to use them in 40k if you get tired of RRPGT.

 Manchu wrote:
Also I cannot stress this enough the symbol should replace the SIX side rather than the ONE side.

It does


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:
A generic yellow dice with a black fist? At least you'll be able to use them in 40k if you get tired of RRPGT.

It's to not stray too far from these....

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/823360

The dice a pretty plain but then again so are the ones in the RTT boxes. I figured I might as well have Malcontent ones to go with the white and purple ones.