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 warboss wrote:
As for the first part, I wouldn't be "happy" but it makes sense. Get the most product out to the most number of individual backers. In the end, if you can make 100 people happy with smaller orders that are local that still beats out making 30 people with bigger orders much further away happy. 100>30. It's a matter of numbers. That makes sense to me as long as it is done methodically and impartially. YMMV. That obviously didn't happen in wave 1 either though since Palladium specifically tailored production MONTHS before the vote towards what they wanted to SELL at gencon and not what would make the most backers happy. It's pathetic that in the first month and a half, they only got about 5% of the orders out due to their own greed.

My thinking is this.

As AU and EU are just "Put boxes on pallets, shrink wrap, and call for containers." then exactly how much would continental US backers have been put out to wait the extra couple of days - week at most - it SHOULD have taken them to do that. Say 3,500 backers not put out that much having to wait a week, or 1,500 getting really pissed waiting several months. If it was my business, I know what I'd do. And as it has to be split into 2 waves, why not do it the other way next time? Gives you an opportunity to find out which causes less hassle and complaints whilst maybe appeasing the disgruntled 1,500 somewhat. Saves face and may mean more sales in future.

Which is precisely why PB WON'T DO IT!

/

Since they've always seemed to be limited by this or that bit, and since the container to the EU or AUS could not set off until they had very single bit needed for everybody (plus spares for shipping loss damage?)

It would potentially have taken ages (it's hard to be certain as we never quite got clear what individual containers had in)

Container 1 was purely Core Boxes and a couple (but not all) of the expansions. I believe Container 2 was the first to have Battle Cry Bonus Bags in it. Given that Aus/NZ only seems to have around 200-300'ish backers, unless they all got Showdown and Reckless tiers, presumably they could have covered those earlier. By C3 at the latest, as I recall.

Which would have been hillarious, because of the way the containers were actually delivered, they *would* have sent a big pile off to AUS/NZ and perhaps ROW/Europe and ended up with weeks and weeks of waiting for more materials to arrive. US and Canadian backers would've likely been spitting venom by the time their boxes actually got out there.

It would've bitten them in the ass in reverse, but they were *so* convinced that it was 'just a little longer' that unless they were prescient (or knew more than they let on), it wouldn't have been an unreasonable approach to take.

I mean, some folks like to point out that the US had the vast majority of the backers! And, yeah, it seems that they do! Which should mean that it wouldn't be that big a deal to fire off a couple hundred boxes out of the thousands and thousands that are coming to get an entire continent taken care of. Doubly so those places where they're using a local re-distributor. Box up orders, put on pallets, fire off to a container.

Of course, at this point they were over half a year late, missed Gencon, and presumably wanted to get as many boxes in as many hands as cheaply as possible. Which I can't entirely disagree with, even if it has played out to mean that said short term thinking has led to some backers getting royally fethed on delivery, and seems to be getting worse by the week.

And don't forget, the problems of the first containers not having the stuff required to fire off the rewards for AU/EU was because they'd filled them with core boxes only in the hope they'd get them for sale at Gencon.

Had they been filled properly with the requirements for AU backers, they could quite probably have gotten them fired off earlier - probably without impacting speed of other region's reward shipments.

Still, what they did for wave 1 is something we can't change. I wonder if they'll have learned how hard international shipping is, what causes delays and frustration, and what may be a better idea on how to handle wave 2?

 Conrad Turner wrote:
Still, what they did for wave 1 is something we can't change. I wonder if they'll have learned how hard international shipping is, what causes delays and frustration, and what may be a better idea on how to handle wave 2?

I doubt it due to history.
PB seems to have that "not thought of here" attitude that if they do not handle the entire process it will all go to madness (when it has occasionally been the reverse result).
They should have engaged a company that specializes in international shipping and probably could have avoided some issues, get experts involved.
If they REALLY did not want to do that, they should have assigned someone over that year wait, to become "instant expert" and research all the best practices they could find.
It appears from what they communicated, that unless it is all lies, they are just now finding out some of the issues of shipping to the other side of the planet.
We should not be at a stage for surprises at this point (short of acts of god, customs does not count as a surprise).

<edit> Still expecting some cash grab for the Wave 2 shipment.
Something to the tune of: "We only budgeted initially for one shipment! You understand why we should not pay for this right?".
I am still upset when they told us the cost of "Battlecry" was not going to be any different if I ordered a second, then they added $40 (think that was the cost) last minute.
They feel like those ebay sellers that sell a cheap product and then charge double what you know costs for shipping.

 Talizvar wrote:
Still expecting some cash grab for the Wave 2 shipment.
Something to the tune of: "We only budgeted initially for one shipment! You understand why we should not pay for this right?".
I am still upset when they told us the cost of "Battlecry" was not going to be any different if I ordered a second, then they added $40 (think that was the cost) last minute.
They feel like those ebay sellers that sell a cheap product and then charge double what you know costs for shipping.

That'll be the next expected big bad news. If they announce further delays? Still sucks but we've been through that a half dozen times (and hard to do with their new tactic of just not telling any dates ever). Selling wave 2 at gencon before shipping to backers? They tried and failed that already so we're expecting that douche move now. Announcing LE minis for sale that backers can't get? It's a classic and the original debacle. Shipping woes and shennanigans? We're still not even through the last of that half year process for wave 1. Showing subpar wave 2 minis in a piss poor manner? That was Palladium's 2013 Xmas presents to backers. Asking folks to pony up more money for their already paid for wave 2 is potentially the next big thing they're poised to screw up if you're pessimistic. So far, if you've responded to every update in a half glass empty fashion then you're batting 1000.

 Talizvar wrote:
<edit> Still expecting some cash grab for the Wave 2 shipment.
Something to the tune of: "We only budgeted initially for one shipment! You understand why we should not pay for this right?".
I am still upset when they told us the cost of "Battlecry" was not going to be any different if I ordered a second, then they added $40 (think that was the cost) last minute.
They feel like those ebay sellers that sell a cheap product and then charge double what you know costs for shipping.

I don't know. I have very little faith in Palladium, except for them to feth up, but even I think that'd be a bridge too far. I wouldn't put it past them to offer "expidited shipping" for a premium, where you pay X and get put to the front of the line (domestic backers only). Or to go retail with some or most of it before shipping Wave 2 (in fact, I fully expect that if it gets to US Thanksgiving and it's still not fully out, as it was last year). Hell, I can see them doing a 2006 CoT-esque "Please give to the 'we are incompetent and cannot budget shipping' fund! Every dollar helps!" blatant cashgrab. I just can't see them demanding more money before shipping.

However, if it is a blanket "We need the funds to ship", to paraphrase Obi Wan Kenobi, "I felt a great disturbance in the Internets, as if five thousands voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened. ". It'd simply make every other controversial issue (Max&Miriya, SpartanGate, GenCon Vote, Non-Dom Shipping) be seen by PB as "those happy times when only a portion of our fanbase was out for blood".

Though I'm not sure they'd even be allowed to do that under KS T&C. If they can't provide to those who pledged, those pledgers are entitled to a refund. Be interesting to see how that works with a portion of the pledges having already been delivered.

They should just go start a patreon like the deadbeats they are

Morgan Vening wrote:

Though I'm not sure they'd even be allowed to do that under KS T&C. If they can't provide to those who pledged, those pledgers are entitled to a refund. Be interesting to see how that works with a portion of the pledges having already been delivered.

I'll spoiler exactly what Kickstarter will do if palladium flagrantly breaks their T&C in the future.

And if they turn round and just say they aren't shipping any more product, it's a dead dog, then even I don't stand as much chance of getting my money back. They have after all shipped to me and I have received.

Never mind it's a $1* decal sheet out of a $150+ pledge, I've still received something for my money.


*Yes, I know that we ponied up $5 for each decal sheet that was asked for as an extra, but the customs declaration said it was woth $1, so it's worth $1, right?

 warboss wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:

Though I'm not sure they'd even be allowed to do that under KS T&C. If they can't provide to those who pledged, those pledgers are entitled to a refund. Be interesting to see how that works with a portion of the pledges having already been delivered.

I'll spoiler exactly what Kickstarter will do if palladium flagrantly breaks their T&C in the future.

Spoiler:

Damn dawg, that's cold. Hilariously, hilariously cold.

Morgan Vening wrote:
I don't know. I have very little faith in Palladium, except for them to feth up

I'm sorry to keep intruding here when I have little standing, but I can't help but think that'd be an excellent t-shirt:

Palladium Books: Converting faith to feth since 1981.

Plus if you're looking at vowels A E I O U and you couldn't afford both A and I so you split the difference, you do get E...

I'll just get me coat.

 Krinsath wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:

Plus if you're looking at vowels A E I O U and you couldn't afford both A and I so you split the difference, you do get E...

I'll just get me coat.

Before you leave, could you explain the AEIOU joke?

The difference between faith and feth is the vowels; AI in the former and E in the latter. All the consonants match.

Laying out the vowels of the English alphabet is typically done in order so: A E I O U (sometimes Y).

E, the vowel in feth, is the one between A and I, the ones in faith. So, if one were to badly underestimate your vowel costs and have to half-ass a solution where you just go down the middle...

I never said it was a good joke.

well right now I foresee one of 2 things happening before wave 2 is even shipped:

1: PB starts another KS for the next series of RoboTech

2: PB opens up the backerkit ordering form.

sorry but in my Opinion even though many disagree I feel that PB has run out of money, its the only thing that explains the delays in RoW shipping and wave 2, I feel like the backers are being given the stall treatment.

Asterios wrote:
well right now I foresee one of 2 things happening before wave 2 is even shipped:

1: PB starts another KS for the next series of RoboTech

2: PB opens up the backerkit ordering form.

sorry but in my Opinion even though many disagree I feel that PB has run out of money, its the only thing that explains the delays in RoW shipping and wave 2, I feel like the backers are being given the stall treatment.

Well, to be fair the other option is "Complete and total incompetence".

Every moment they don't ship to ROW is another moment they still have hold of that cash.

Or maybe the actual answer is "all of the above" and they aren't shipping ROW so they can keep hold of that money so that they can actually afford to get out Wave 2 before dying.

But what does it matter guys? I have it on the good authority of some random dudes on the internet that even with all the bumps in the road and bad publicity that their next KS will totally still fund!

And that's all that's important, right!?

And the daggers in the heart! Their rep is at jeopardy and they are just so super sorry!

Daggers!

Or, maybe it really is a major PITA to arrange non-US shipping for small numbers of people across the globe, above and beyond jacked US postage and global customs fees...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/suwcharmananderson/2013/11/11/kickstarter-and-the-shipping-problem/

http://www.deadlyfredly.com/2013/10/breakdown-international-shipping/

http://www.fastcodesign.com/1672681/life-after-kickstarter-5-costly-lessons-from-a-kickstarter-backed-designer

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Or, maybe it really is a major PITA to arrange non-US shipping for small numbers of people across the globe, above and beyond jacked US postage and global customs fees...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/suwcharmananderson/2013/11/11/kickstarter-and-the-shipping-problem/

http://www.deadlyfredly.com/2013/10/breakdown-international-shipping/

or maybe it only takes the time to pack up the stuff, fill out the customs form and ship product out, seriously John, no matter how they look at it, its not going to get cheaper and they will not find a cheaper option to do so, so why are they dragging their heals? unless they don't have the money? or they just don't care for those backers?

I know it is long dead history but I am still shaking my head over this:

How could PB have in good faith thought they could actually ship all the models of the KS before the year was out when it closed.

I cannot even stretch this to incompetence no matter how hard I try.

It is this maddening reoccurring thought that cries BS when they claim so hard that they care and are doing their honest best.

I would like this company to grow-up and develop their product on their own dime.
At least they will not have to feel defensive on not posting timelines.

Wonder what company they will use as a front... errr... Trojan hor... ummm "developer" to lead (temporarily) the next project.

It would take fortitude like no-other to go into a KS with just their name and Harmony Gold... the laughter would be painful.

Bah, I am kicking them again... constructive things to say is: I got models and am building them, slowly mind you, but getting good results.
Cannot wait to paint, then I could convince myself it was all worth it.

Supposedly, PB went through the freight forwarding route, with pallets on boats. That's a very slow process, of packing, palletizing, containerizing, etc.

That's because PB painted themselves into a corner by saying they would be EU friendly, with no extra VAT charges. That was a huge mistake.

PB totally screwed themselves by not tacking on a huge markup to cover international shipping charges and administration.

Especially now that UPS and FedEx are both moving to DimWt charges and USPS raised rates even further.

I bet PB is taking a massive loss on every international backer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talizvar wrote:
Wonder what company they will use as a front... errr... Trojan hor... ummm "developer" to lead (temporarily) the next project.

I'm pretty sure it won't be Soda Pop / Ninja Division. It's amusing that SPM/ND won't say a peep about RRT.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Supposedly, PB went through the freight forwarding route, with pallets on boats. That's a very slow process, of packing, palletizing, containerizing, etc.

That's because PB painted themselves into a corner by saying they would be EU friendly, with no extra VAT charges. That was a huge mistake.

PB totally screwed themselves by not tacking on a huge markup to cover international shipping charges and administration.

Especially now that UPS and FedEx are both moving to DimWt charges and USPS raised rates even further.

I bet PB is taking a massive loss on every international backer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talizvar wrote:
Wonder what company they will use as a front... errr... Trojan hor... ummm "developer" to lead (temporarily) the next project.

I'm pretty sure it won't be Soda Pop / Ninja Division. It's amusing that SPM/ND won't say a peep about RRT.

I''m sure ND is trying to remove themselves from this disaster as much as possible.

Also John, my point has nothing to do with AU or UK/Europe backers, but everyone else in those other countries not being containerized, why were their products not shipped? especially considering the only thing that is going to happen from delaying shipping to them is the shipping costs skyrocketing.

I think PB has made every answer to explain why things are they way they are. They're just not saying what people want to hear, and making things happen the way that people want.

And yeah, the 1-year delay is just killing them on shipping. Amusing that low gas doesn't translate into removal of UPS fuel surcharges.

If they do another project, I bet they simply make it US-only.

Man, if I'm really lucky, USPS will raise its rates again right before PB gets around to shipping mine. Make it happen USPS


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Really? Have they explained why they're waiting for AU to ship before shipping out ROW? When according to them, AU is packed up and just waiting for a container?

They've nearly had two years to sort out the basics, and almost half a year to figure out the particulars. They finished up North American distribution around two months ago, and even accepting holidays for some hold ups, they still don't have an answer for around 250-300 backers, European distribution isn't even on the water yet, and a smattering of others are just now being looked at.

I'm going to guess that those handful of boxes going to Singapore aren't going to be any cheaper today than they would've been a month or two or three ago.

Here's a fun thought; we're nearly 5 months into just the *shipping of wave one* of this fiasco.

Which is roughly 2 months less than they originally estimated to do ALL OF IT. Every figure, designed, punched and shipped.

I mean, think about that for a second.

When your final timeframe is in the 400-500% of original estimate, "ooops" doesn't quite cover it.

As for making their next project US only, that'd be their prerogative. Even with these shenanigans I'm sure they'd fund just fine.

But it'd also be admitting that they aren't ready for the big leagues. To walk with 'small companies' like Wyrd that manage to pull off global distribution without a fraction of the bullgak, and with a quarter century less time doing business.

I'm glad you seem to be happy with how they do business. Seriously, rah rah, hooray Palladium for you and your handful of figures for a diorama or whatever you're doing.

I'll lament what could have been in terms of a wide scale game, not just a couple dozen fiddly mini-models that it seems might be lucky to end up on a shelf (probably just in a box, shelf space is at a premium).

John, I am getting old and a bit slow but I do not see what you are driving at.

Although a minority the RoW contributed probably at least $250k to the cause and get you some of those extra stretch goals.

If the route was for EU and possibly Australasian customer was always going to be by container so be it , PB have had 18 months to plan for this.

However the impression is PB do not make long term plans and fly by the seat of Kev's pants

The fly in the ointment was their decssion to rush out the US retail orders to grab a quick buck - consequently sending product to US distrution centres to flog world wide. Eiither way it was a big finger to the RoW.

Naw, I still cannot find a logical reason for not sending out the RoW pledges, even at a trickle of a hundred or so a week - it would have been done by now.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Or, maybe it really is a major PITA to arrange non-US shipping for small numbers of people across the globe, above and beyond jacked US postage and global customs fees...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/suwcharmananderson/2013/11/11/kickstarter-and-the-shipping-problem/

http://www.deadlyfredly.com/2013/10/breakdown-international-shipping/

http://www.fastcodesign.com/1672681/life-after-kickstarter-5-costly-lessons-from-a-kickstarter-backed-designer

More or less of a PITA than sending non-US orders and christmas grab-bags? Because those have been shipping swimmingly...

If they were able to do one, it stands to reason that they also should have been able to do the other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If they do another project, I bet they simply make it US-only.

If they do another, I bet it simply flops.

I mean, really, thousands of companies manage to ship things globally every day. They're not re-inventing the fething wheel here.

They themselves manage to ship things around the world every year, books and Holiday Grab Bags and pencils (...) and who knows what else. This whole "shipping is expensive and time consuming" thing was a joke months ago, but it has long since stopped being funny.

Or do I need to go grab the quotes from the Happy Holiday Grab Bag Buyers ($84 worth of signed product or more, maybe even $92 worth!) that got them recently in Germany, France and Britain.

Apparently it didn't take them more than a couple of weeks, and last time I checked, a half dozen'ish of their books is both sizable and heavy.

Clearly, the shipping has not gone well. But it's amazing how much malice many are reading into delays and problems which are completely outsite their control.

That's fething nonsense.

I guess I expect more professionalism out of a company that lauds being in business for a third of a century and has been shipping product globally for decades.

Whether or not this is their biggest undertaking to date, "guys, mailing things is hard" is not what I want to hear from a startup of two guys in their parents basement, let alone one staffed with a half dozen grown adults, some of whom have been in business longer than some of their customers have been alive.