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Thought of the day: a game's success is not determined by a half dozen anonymous voices on an internet forum.

Meanwhile, outside of this echo chamber...

There's another echo chamber?

... Seriously, one e-tailer doesn't tell the whole story.
Needs more data.

rigeld2 wrote:

... Seriously, one e-tailer doesn't tell the whole story.
Needs more data.

and cue the
"Top Seller Lists from one of the largest online gaming retailers (and in fact, the retail side of one of the largest gaming distributors in North America) don't mean anything, not when my perpetual feedback loop is telling me the game is DOA, unsuccessful, and terrible!"

I believe the KS itself requires around 6-7k of each (slightly more Rick figures, obviously), and they are all "KS & Convention exclusives), so who know how many thousands they may end up producing in the coming years.

Still not the tens/hundreds of thousands that they'll be making for many of the other figures, but that was a call they made two years ago, and it was questioned then for the same reason.

It's great that so many Americans can buy robotech while the rest of the world hasn't even gotten it yet. Thanks judge Doug for reminding us

 judgedoug wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

... Seriously, one e-tailer doesn't tell the whole story.
Needs more data.

and cue the
"Top Seller Lists from one of the largest online gaming retailers (and in fact, the retail side of one of the largest gaming distributors in North America) don't mean anything, not when my perpetual feedback loop is telling me the game is DOA, unsuccessful, and terrible!"

Did I say it didn't mean anything? Oh - no I didn't. But that's okay. You'd rather just imply that I have no idea what I'm talking about.
Thanks for keeping up to your standard.

Also, where would one find a list of the largest online game retailers, out of curiosity?

Because it keeps getting cited and I'd like to see where TWS and CSI and MinMar and MeeMar and some of the other big ones I'm familiar with stand.

A little cursory Google'ing is bringing up Alliance and Lions Rampart and a few others, but the similarity of the keywords is bringing up a lot more info on digital game distribution, and clearly that's not what we're talking about here.

edit: even more interesting is that while it *may* be selling (at least through that distributor/store), nobody is really talking about it.

Seriously. The most active communities I've found are the KS comments (now mostly dead compared to what they've been), Mike's page and here.

Palladium forums? Ghost town. Jaymz's page has maybe a 150 people last I checked. And the BGG subforum gets maybe a handful of posts per week, mostly asking about shipping.

Now, granted, the product just came out, but for something with a cult following (... what an on-point description of a PB product) and 2 years of development time, it's not exactly 'new'.

Any thriving communities I've missed?

Well, PB is between a rock and a hard place.
They need to get product out to each region of the world to backers before they go to retail or they are dead to KS for future product.

Luckily, it is a world market and selling to retailers in the US, those enterprising folk can get product out there into a starved market so it is a win-win.

Yeah, the bad history of PB pointed out by Wang there was a consideration but Forar hit the nail on the head: a good reputable front-man cures all ills.
PB may have some problems in the future since it looks like Ninja Division is pretending like the project does not exist.

Pretty sure the "peanuts" shipping cost for me was the initial $50 and pretty sure when I added-on an extra $40 was required later, so $90 shipping was not exactly for free.

It is the shifting targets / goalposts as we wait for things freely promised makes it all so unpleasant.

They really do come across as a bunch of amateurs except when shipping out X-mas packages...

 judgedoug wrote:
Thought of the day: a game's success is not determined by a half dozen anonymous voices on an internet forum.

Meanwhile, outside of this echo chamber...

Looks like it's had a strong start (it has sold more than the Decimator, which I understand it's a nice X-Wing supplement). I'd say that what's important is to see if it manages to keep up.

actually when it comes to retailers top 10 or top 20 sellers, don't listen to them, its all a big lie and this is from a retailer stand point, if you have product you want to move and move fast you say its a best seller and selling fast, so people are persuaded to impulse buy it in fear it will sell out, you want to see the truth of the matter, go to stores where the same product is sold and see how many actually sell, I've only got one store in town that sells the RRT game so I'm unable to give a good judgement on sales or not, since have nothing to compare it too. but in the one store that has had it for awhile now, the only box removed from the shelf is the one the owner opened up to show off the sprues (which he regretted doing).

Is the game an utter failure everywhere? can't say without a breakdown of every single store, is it succeeding? same thing can't say.

Also who said FRP was the biggest online game store around? before today I never heard of them.

anywhoo after having to deal with a crappy site finally got the top 20 for FRPgames and other then the top game, the rest read like a whos who of mediocre games:

#1. Star Wars: Imperial Assault
#2. Robotech RPG Tactics: Main Boxed Game
#3. Star Wars X-Wing: VT-49 Decimator Expansion Pack
#4. Dragon Age RPG: Set 3
#5. Mice and Mystics Expansion: Downwood Tales
#6. King of Tokyo: Core Game (TableTop Reviewed)
#7. Sheriff of Nottingham (TableTop Reviewed)
#8. Golem Arcana: Base Game Set
#9. The End of the World RPG: Zombie Apocalypse
#10. Citadels Game with Dark City Expansion
#11. Arcadia Quest: Core Game
#12. Shadowrun: Crossfire DBG Core Game
#13. Munchkin: Munchkin Deluxe (TableTop Reviewed)
#14. Pathfinder Pawns: Bestiary Box 1
#15. Munchkin Quest: The Munchkin Boardgame
#16. Planetfall: Battle for Proteus Prime Two Player Battle Box
#17. Warmachine: Two Player Battle Box
#18. The One Ring RPG: Rivendell
#19. Galaxy Defenders: Core Game
#20. Dominant Species: The Board Game [3rd Edition]


and mind you, this company also sells games like Magic and so on, that are always big sellers, so to say a bunch of unknown games are outselling them, that should tell you whats up.

... Looking at that list, unless there's some amazingly huge gap between #3 and #4 it means not a heck of a lot.

yeah like Forar said, the true indication of the game is the chatter about it, and guess what this topic on this site ranks right there in the top one or two of chatter on this game, even on the KS forums very little is even talked about the game, its mostly complaints about RoW shipping and such and people talking about other games and KickStarters, the PB forums are almost a ghost town on the subject, but that could be due to their overzealous censoring of the site by NMI, other places its the same handful of people posting, but all in all chatter about the game is almost non-existent, unlike other games.

who on earth is even buying the warmachine 2 player box set that would propel it above any other warmachine product???

Sining wrote:
who on earth is even buying the warmachine 2 player box set that would propel it above any other warmachine product???

Like I said Sining, while the top spot might be a high seller, the rest are slow or unknown items they are pushing to sell, this is a known practice of companies who make these lists and awards and such to promote sales of a product.

Guys, quit propagating the negative echo chamber where the game is DOA! Duh! It's a top seller of course! This one website that is supposedly the internet retailer arm of one of the largest North American distributors totally is all the information you need! Don't question it!

It's a top seller because ROW is having to buy it through these channels, instead of getting their KS stuff, duh!

Also, "best sellers" tend to be notoriously difficult to get because they're often sold out. When the stock is 20+, that's a little dubious.

But, if it does turn out to be a best seller - hurrah?

 Stormonu wrote:
It's a top seller because ROW is having to buy it through these channels, instead of getting their KS stuff, duh!

Also, "best sellers" tend to be notoriously difficult to get because they're often sold out. When the stock is 20+, that's a little dubious.

But, if it does turn out to be a best seller - hurrah?

Stormanu go look at the list up above, most of those games I've never heard of, and yet other games that company sells I know sell a lot are not even listed, like Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh Warmachine, warhordes and so on, yet some unknown games are outselling them?

Asterios wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
It's a top seller because ROW is having to buy it through these channels, instead of getting their KS stuff, duh!

Also, "best sellers" tend to be notoriously difficult to get because they're often sold out. When the stock is 20+, that's a little dubious.

But, if it does turn out to be a best seller - hurrah?

Stormanu go look at the list up above, most of those games I've never heard of, and yet other games that company sells I know sell a lot are not even listed, like Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh Warmachine, warhordes and so on, yet some unknown games are outselling them?

Both Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh are CCGs. The list is tracking table-top games, which I don't think includes CCGs (though I think it *does* include LCGs and deck-building games).

As for the rest of the list...

My FLGS carries most of the items on the list. The notable exceptions are the Dragon Age RPG (I didn't even know that was still around; the expansion was likely timed to coincide with Inquisition, which no doubt boosted sales), and the Planetfall starter (which I special ordered, but the store didn't otherwise stock).

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Yes, it is 100% their fault. When ROW saw that they were not being upcharged on shipping, VAT or customs, they absolutely should have considered the iron triangle of better-faster-cheaper to anticipate that increasing the amount of shipping cost for the same money paid would result in worse and slower. Any ROW backer who didn't anticipate that has only themselves to blame.

Can you leave this thread again please?

You dribble so much rubbish it has to be trolling, no normal person can come up with this sort of drivel with a straight face.

Asterios wrote:

Stormanu go look at the list up above, most of those games I've never heard of, and yet other games that company sells I know sell a lot are not even listed, like Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh Warmachine, warhordes and so on, yet some unknown games are outselling them?

Rick, the fact that you haven't heard of the likes of "King of Toyko" is your malfunction, nobody else's. Being proud of that fact doesn't help either.

The obvious reason is that there is no such things as someone buying "War machine" or "Hordes" because there is no such product. To get on a top list like this you'd have to have an individual product like "Cryx Soul Mutilator" that managed to be one of their top 20 sellers. X-Wing will make that list (popular game, small base of models), and starter boxes will make that list (standard new player entry point), but individual models aren't going to make it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MangoMadness wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Yes, it is 100% their fault. When ROW saw that they were not being upcharged on shipping, VAT or customs, they absolutely should have considered the iron triangle of better-faster-cheaper to anticipate that increasing the amount of shipping cost for the same money paid would result in worse and slower. Any ROW backer who didn't anticipate that has only themselves to blame.

Can you leave this thread again please?

You dribble so much rubbish it has to be trolling, no normal person can come up with this sort of drivel with a straight face.

Maybe it's NMI's alter ego. Because his real life fame is too much for him.

Merijeek wrote:

Asterios wrote:

Stormanu go look at the list up above, most of those games I've never heard of, and yet other games that company sells I know sell a lot are not even listed, like Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh Warmachine, warhordes and so on, yet some unknown games are outselling them?

Rick, the fact that you haven't heard of the likes of "King of Toyko" is your malfunction, nobody else's. Being proud of that fact doesn't help either.

The obvious reason is that there is no such things as someone buying "War machine" or "Hordes" because there is no such product. To get on a top list like this you'd have to have an individual product like "Cryx Soul Mutilator" that managed to be one of their top 20 sellers. X-Wing will make that list (popular game, small base of models), and starter boxes will make that list (standard new player entry point), but individual models aren't going to make it.

Looking at it today, there's a bag of foam on it.

Individual models aren't going to make it but foam bags are?! Seriously? How many http://frpgames.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=14201#.VL5lRZB0aPw does the average miniature gamer need?

rigeld2 wrote:
Individual models aren't going to make it but foam bags are?! Seriously? How many http://frpgames.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=14201#.VL5lRZB0aPw does the average miniature gamer need?

No idea. Honest answer for me is that I've got a combination of about 6 different kinds of bags from them. One day I decided I was tired of having my stuff wrapped in paper towel and bouncing around in cardboard boxes so I ordered a bunch from some online place. Not that one.

My honest guess is that it's actually a pretty tiny site, and that someone ordered three of them this morning, which let them crack the top 20.

They're also selling the Decimator preorder for $4 more than CSI, and it's in their top list. I suspect they're just a very small volume site.

Who knows. Unless their methodology is made known to the rest of us, it will probably be fairly meaningless.

rigeld2 wrote:
Individual models aren't going to make it but foam bags are?! Seriously? How many http://frpgames.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=14201#.VL5lRZB0aPw does the average miniature gamer need?

Well... I do have 7 army cases and about a dozen other separate foam trays...

 Albertorius wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Individual models aren't going to make it but foam bags are?! Seriously? How many http://frpgames.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=14201#.VL5lRZB0aPw does the average miniature gamer need?

Well... I do have 7 army cases and about a dozen other separate foam trays...

Now - how many of a single model do you have?

I've got, using 40k as an example, 10 Carnifexes, 4 Hive Tyrants, over a hundred Genestealers... and I might need 2 army cases to fit them in when I transport (the rest of the models are on shelves).

They sold enough to crack the top 20? Yeah, I'm not going to put any more value on this site than it's face. A single site on the internet doesn't mean diddly squat.

But this is one of the latest online stores, according to Doug.

Also I still don't get the two player set being that popular for Warmachine. They gave some pretty bad models for it. Mow STs and cinerators?? Plus it's been out for 3 years now. It's how I got into wmh

Sining wrote:
But this is one of the latest online stores, according to Doug.

Also I still don't get the two player set being that popular for Warmachine. They gave some pretty bad models for it. Mow STs and cinerators?? Plus it's been out for 3 years now. It's how I got into wmh

If nothing else that page could very well be "crap we think we might have over ordered". Like I said, without knowing their methodology, it's pretty meaningless.

I figure web sales are great if they are happening, we want people to play the game with right?

The one lonely box at my FLGS is still sitting there since the initial shipments.
I think the owner is hoping I take it off his hands... not so amusing stuff.

At least in my area it is looking like it is not making much of an impression.

I figure I will get at least 3 full cards for both sides done and say I have a ready to go game.
Any extra destroids I could roll into Battletech.

Anyway, I guess we can hope PB keeps plugging away at those conventions and get enough volunteers to demo their product.
Why does PB seem so dependent on their customers to do the heavy lifting? (Sometimes literally...)

Wave 2, then no more PB, can't wait to unsubscribe from their rather irritating news letter.

My attempt at their publication:

"Blah, blah... had a hard weekend, had to think... stayed up all crazy hours for no reason... could not figure out which font I wanted to use... I decided to use a pencil today: it is going to be one of those days... we glad-slapped each other for all the hard work we did filling a pallet for Australia... made sure it was made of un-heat-treated wood so it would be rejected by customs... figured we could slap a sticker with "HT" on it if we had to... you have no idea how hard it is to prepare for our open-house, pushing a broom around brought up such bad memories... tried to read the Tactics rules again, got cross-eyed after the first paragraph, figure I would "wing-it" like always... had to ban a few more people for being irritants in the forums, funny people never learn, they create such work for us though... tried to look at dakka posts again, they really have no idea how to act if they are to be favored fans... well, no email in my mailbox so China production of wave 2 must be going as planned... hmmm... where did that schedule go? Ah, silly me, I never made one... I am sure it will be all awesome, that last Gencon thing was such a nightmare... at least the next one is about a year away, plenty of time...."

<edit>Yes, I am aware how petty this looks, but I needed the therapy...<>

Just occurred to me, we ship about every other month a cargo container to Australia, should have had the buggers piggyback with my work.
Again, the "it's sooo hard!!!" just makes me angry.

Merijeek wrote:

Sining wrote:
But this is one of the latest online stores, according to Doug.

Also I still don't get the two player set being that popular for Warmachine. They gave some pretty bad models for it. Mow STs and cinerators?? Plus it's been out for 3 years now. It's how I got into wmh

If nothing else that page could very well be "crap we think we might have over ordered". Like I said, without knowing their methodology, it's pretty meaningless.

And yet when I say "... Seriously, one e-tailer doesn't tell the whole story.
Needs more data." I get slapped with "and cue the
"Top Seller Lists from one of the largest online gaming retailers (and in fact, the retail side of one of the largest gaming distributors in North America) don't mean anything, not when my perpetual feedback loop is telling me the game is DOA, unsuccessful, and terrible!""

All I said was "Needs more data." Not - "This can't be correct." or "They're fabricating numbers." or anything like that.

judgedoug, please provide more information - a link showing that this is, and I quote, the retail side of one of the largest gaming distributors in North America (unquote), some information about their methodology of picking their top 20, another webstore showing good sales... something. Anything. Please. That's all I can ask for.

A single data point that contains... shall we say "interesting" other data isn't enough to make any call on, let alone something to hang your hat on to mock other users.

I think there is actually a collated list somewhere. I remember eating it once and seeing that xwing was the best selling game of that quarter followed by wh40k then wmh then whfb. This was two years back I think

rigeld2 wrote:

And yet when I say "... Seriously, one e-tailer doesn't tell the whole story.
Needs more data." I get slapped with "and cue the
"Top Seller Lists from one of the largest online gaming retailers (and in fact, the retail side of one of the largest gaming distributors in North America) don't mean anything, not when my perpetual feedback loop is telling me the game is DOA, unsuccessful, and terrible!""

You must not be used to arguing with religious fanatics or cultists. There will be no such thing that is forthcoming. Something was found that he thought validated his assertion, and therefore his assertion is right.