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 Stormonu wrote:
I view it like NASCAR.

I don't watch for the running around in circles. I'm watching to comment on the spectacular crashes.

I'd enjoy a Savage Worlds (or FATE) conversions of Rifts. Might make it playable.

Confirmed. It's going to be Savage Worlds:

http://us7.campaign-archive1.com/?u=769fad71f5a930b6bef22bca8&id=73dad77bb4

SW is not really my favorite system ever, but... holy gak, is thousand of miles better than the current one! also, much easier to "translate" to other systems, if the mood strikes you.

Four news posts: https://www.peginc.com/ not a single C, R, or TM.

Palladium announcement: http://us7.campaign-archive1.com/?u=769fad71f5a930b6bef22bca8&id=73dad77bb4 three of them.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
I view it like NASCAR.

I don't watch for the running around in circles. I'm watching to comment on the spectacular crashes.

I'd enjoy a Savage Worlds (or FATE) conversions of Rifts. Might make it playable.

Confirmed. It's going to be Savage Worlds:

http://us7.campaign-archive1.com/?u=769fad71f5a930b6bef22bca8&id=73dad77bb4

SW is not really my favorite system ever, but... holy gak, is thousand of miles better than the current one! also, much easier to "translate" to other systems, if the mood strikes you.

Nice! Wonder how MegaDamage will work in SW.

Unfortunately, I'm sure production of this will be under Kevin's control and require his approval, so we might see it in 2018 and he'll likely drop it the moment some fan converts the first Worldbook from Rifts to SW. If it doesn't collapse after a "creative difference" between Shane & Kevin. :(

Pinnacle released a mock cover, using art from Palladium’s 2005 Rifts Ultimate Edition with permission.

Really, who forces that sort of statement on someone who does a mock cover?!? This does not bode well to me.

Maybe they can get Kevin Long in to do the art. It just wouldn't be Rifts(R)(TM)(C) if it doesn't have a bunch of people who all look identical if not for their hair and armor.

 Stormonu wrote:

Nice! Wonder how MegaDamage will work in SW.

Realistically, I could see it being done similar to the existing Necessary Evil campaign for Savage Worlds which was superheros (actually villains) saving the world. Getting 'Heavy Armor' was very easy for superhero types. Heavy Armor was essentially 'vehicle armor' like a tank or similar would have, and was essentially unbeatable to conventional man-portable weapons.

This was about a decade ago, so they have (hopefully) revised the cocnept in newer releases, as it was a little odd then (essentially it meant that every PC took the basic Heavy Armor superpower as it was a no-brainer) and made things a bit less interesting, but it works no worse than Palladium's MegaDamage, especially since it's coupled with better damage rules than large pools of ablative hit points.

Ho. Lee. Feth.

The tournament rules for the PB Open House Tournament are up. And there are no words. I can't even...

Full Tournament Rules PDF

While there are so many things that just scream out, the one thing that I can see being the most problematic, is the scheduling.

Start time, 7:30AM signup, 8:00AM start. Expected finish time, 10PM.

That's 10.5 hours of active play across a single 14.5 hour session. It's going to be less a battle of skill, and more a battle of will. Even after 8-9 hours of tournament play, concentration starts to wane. By hour 14, I wouldn't rule out edging into hallucinations or mental breaks.

And that's assuming nothing goes wrong. I can't recall attending a tourney that didn't end at least a half hour late, sometimes as long as 2 hours. And that's for the 8-10 hour range. For what seems to be a first time outing (not sure who handled Adepticon), if this finishes before midnight, without them dropping a round or two of games, I'd be very surprised.

To me, it just seems like their inexperience is showing. 14+ hours of RPGing just isn't the same as 14+ hours of tournament wargaming. Honestly hoping it works out, but definitely wouldn't wager on it.

Come now.

The funniest part is that they're insisting on painted miniatures, but they almost certainly won't bother actually taking any pictures.

Merijeek wrote:
Come now.

The funniest part is that they're insisting on painted miniatures, but they almost certainly won't bother actually taking any pictures.

You don't think that the funniest thing is that you're both praised (and benefit in scoring) for customizing figures, but you're also potentially penalized (and disqualified) for doing the same thing, because of the way LOS is handled.

Gets even funnier when you read the section on Convoy Vehicles.

But to me, the part I just throw up my hands and go "WTF?", is the exclusionary nature with regards Army Building. I can't think of another game system that says "Make sure you bring alternate models to your core army build, because in some games, we're going to say they're illegal to field". Some games allow a pool of models, but that applies no matter what you take. In this, certain models (Destroids), are looking to be actively banned in some games, because of fluff reasons.

Note, it's unlikely any Z models will have that restriction, so it's likely to make RDF players scarcer as unless they field entirely Valkyries, they're required to assemble and paint additional models. Heck, the only RDF army fielded at Adepticon (entirely Destroid) would require a complete alternate list of Valkyries (the only other option) to participate.

Also, there's the promo issue. Malcontents are permitted to field a Female Power Armor as part of one of their squads, but only if they own the Miriya Promo figure. That's just poorly done, IMO.

Reading tournament list and comments in order:

Must bring 3 objective markers and 2 convoy ones... rules of appearance to follow...
Hey! they allow you to make your own "cheat sheet" to consolidate your card information... but you need to have them on-hand.
Ohh! Rules for painting "champion" with the three colour rule.
Base does not have to be painted! To allow for unfinished / continued painting (??!!) nice of them I suppose.
Judged on 9 different categories... Ah, I see: 9 for the judges and 3 for the rest of us.
Talking of modeling for advantage vs. esthetics, I may be impressed.
Flight stands may be replaced! Not too fussy about using their own.. well done?
Brought up MANY times of having available model for "jettison" rule models (a fear I realized recently)... unless using magnets (now that would be a challenge!).
No replacement minis from another manufacturer! Other than objective or convoy models. No surprise there...
Built-in upgrades do not need to be modeled... so WYSIWYG missiles they gave some leniency I guess.
250 points... pretty big.
Gah! May be a "space battle" so you may need replacements for your destroids... really not making it any easier for the UEDF to show up.
Some problem with convoy models and modeling for advantage, not to make them too small.... I have a properly scaled bus, it is 1/2" in height if I am lucky.
Defining base to base attacks with a bridge (or stuff on it) as well as differing elevations... they are thorough!
Template hits cover for ALL elevations: Don't stack up in a ruin on multiple floors!

Seems OK as far as tournament rules go but really makes a Zent. force all the more appealing.
Some clear thought did go into it.

Apparently they forgot they they actually had rules in their RPG for, essentially, Destroid jetpacks.

That tournament document is comedy gold.

 Talizvar wrote:
Built-in upgrades do not need to be modeled... so WYSIWYG missiles they gave some leniency I guess.

Except you should expect to be penalized if you don't (it's a listed factor in one of the judging categories).

 Talizvar wrote:
Defining base to base attacks with a bridge (or stuff on it) as well as differing elevations... they are thorough!

Except IMO, this sort of thing (along with LOS) should have been handled in the rulebook in the first place, and in the FAQ if that wasn't possible.

 Talizvar wrote:
Some clear thought did go into it.

I vehemently disagree. I'll agree that a lot of WORK went into it (it's 18 pages long, 15 if they did the barest of formatting edits), but given so many questionable choices throughout (much more than Meri and I have listed here), I can't say a lot of thought went into it. Could it have been worse? Sure. But it's still several steps below "mediocre". Yes, it's their first, and I'm not sure what position the author holds, or how much overview was given by KevCo, but there is a metric buttload of improvements and rethinks that should be done.

"With the onslaught of the Zentraedi hoard attacking Earth..."

Well, it's clear they're up to their usual standards.

I guess you didn't know that the Zentraedi were also know for carpet bombing planets with gold bricks?

Morgan Vening wrote:
I vehemently disagree. I'll agree that a lot of WORK went into it (it's 18 pages long, 15 if they did the barest of formatting edits), but given so many questionable choices throughout (much more than Meri and I have listed here), I can't say a lot of thought went into it. Could it have been worse? Sure. But it's still several steps below "mediocre". Yes, it's their first, and I'm not sure what position the author holds, or how much overview was given by KevCo, but there is a metric buttload of improvements and rethinks that should be done.

Oh, I too would disagree, I can imagine the smoke coming from the guy's ears having to write all this stuff.
The careful "clarification" and various details trying to meet the various wants of different parties.
These are tournament rules, not a rulebook FAQ or re-write.
I think if a single bit of it hinted as being a "correction" it would have been expunged.
I DO agree it could have been much better, but I could see the reasoning for most of what was written and it was not for the benefit of the players.
<edit> I also had ummm... low expectations?
What they decided to cover went into a depth that is surprising for a company that is more excited with dice bags than Wave 2.
I could not quite make it sarcasm because as I stated earlier, I could appreciate the catering to management tap-dance the writer performed.

 Talizvar wrote:
I think if a single bit of it hinted as being a "correction" it would have been expunged.
I DO agree it could have been much better, but I could see the reasoning for most of what was written and it was not for the benefit of the players.
<edit> I also had ummm... low expectations?
What they decided to cover went into a depth that is surprising for a company that is more excited with dice bags than Wave 2.
I could not quite make it sarcasm because as I stated earlier, I could appreciate the catering to management tap-dance the writer performed.

Ahh, now I get it. You were seeing it from a position of low expectations, whereas I was seeing it from a position of comparison to it's peers. While I believe we still disagree, there's a lot less of a gap between our thinkings. It's definitely not far off I would expect from them, but nowadays, that's a very low bar (I stub my toe on it occasionally). The problem only becomes truly apparent when in comparison to the baseline.

Thanks for the link. I'll have to take a peek when not on a mobile device but I don't see anything too alarming so far from a quick thread skim.

Morgan Vening wrote:
While I believe we still disagree, there's a lot less of a gap between our thinkings. It's definitely not far off I would expect from them, but nowadays, that's a very low bar (I stub my toe on it occasionally). The problem only becomes truly apparent when in comparison to the baseline.

I am curious what you would use as a baseline?
I had invested a fair bit in 40k so my judgment would be suspect, anything else springing to mind is Battletech.

Am I reading "Tournament Champion" correctly? The person with the lowest paint & battle score (of 8) wins this? So the crappiest player and painter?


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Also, by the enclosed rules is it impossible for a Veritech in fighter (or guardian) mode to avoid being in HtH with a Spartan if bases are touching?

I tried reading through it but gave up a few pages in. I just don't have enough of a motivation to do it and frankly I don't know the game rules well enough to form an educated opinion in any case. I will say that at least someone in the MA program (the author on the front page) demonstrated some progress on some front since the Adepticon tourney was announced months ago. That is more demonstrable proof of effort than we've gotten from the actual company for anything related to the KS in the same time period as they've apparently been working their typical 14 hour days 6 days a week for months to bring us.. a dice bag!

 Talizvar wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:
While I believe we still disagree, there's a lot less of a gap between our thinkings. It's definitely not far off I would expect from them, but nowadays, that's a very low bar (I stub my toe on it occasionally). The problem only becomes truly apparent when in comparison to the baseline.

I am curious what you would use as a baseline?
I had invested a fair bit in 40k so my judgment would be suspect, anything else springing to mind is Battletech.

I'm no expert by a long shot. But I guess I was more taken aback by how many seemingly arbitrary things they've done. The fact that it's 15 pages is part of that. For most tourney packs I've seen, 4-5 pages is the upper limit, with a similar 2-3 page appendix of scoresheets/example.

Can't recall a set of tourney rules for another system requiring bringing alternate models because in certain games, more than 2/3 of otherwise eligible formations are disqualified. Heck, if things are unchanged from the KS PDF, there are 7 legal Core Squadrons, made up of combinations of 5 different models. Only one (consisting entirely of Valks) is legal. Some games do have selection pools, Malifaux being one that I'm fairly familiar with, but this isn't that.

The Malcontent promo thing isn't unique, but it's very rarely been considered a good thing by the general playerbase to permit people who got limited release product (Miriya), to potentially gain advantage as a result.

The permitting of non-official cards, and templates. While I understand not wanting to be a hardass about it, given their stance on proxies on miniatures (and hence the inability to field Malcontent FPA) it just seems inconsistent that you'd allow fan-made cards and templates. Is it just an admission that their own cards aren't up to snuff? Because short of the "missing" cards (to which they should provide legitimate cards to anyone who's using them in the tourney), I can't think of another reason for an official tourney to do it. As for the template, is there really going to be anyone who has purchased an entire fieldable army, that hasn't got at least one?

The whole LOS thing has always been a point of contention, but to compound that with the modelling rules, convoy vehicles and objective markers, by going "Knock yourselves out! Make it great! You'll be judged on your artistry!", and then turn around and say "But if you push it too far, you'll be disqualified!". While I'm sure they're just covering their butts, the lack of real definition or examples (beyond prone), with such a high downside (disqualification and unless you've got a replacement, essential ejection), just seems an issue.

They did some things wrong, they did some things right, they went into way more detail on things that weren't necessary, while being overly vague or confusing in others, it just seems like it was overly written. Much like most of my posts.


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 Stormonu wrote:
Am I reading "Tournament Champion" correctly? The person with the lowest paint & battle score (of 8) wins this? So the crappiest player and painter?

Nope. It's a Palladism. Something that's not that complicated, written in a way to be much more complicated than it should be.

So, this is the process.

1) Each player will get a score for painting (1-10 per eligible voter, converted to an average), and a score for Victory Points (0-2 per game, end result 0-12).
2) Then, each player is ranked from 1 to 20 (one being best, twenty being worst) in each category.
3) Then, you drop the bottom 12 from each category.
4) Then, you remove anyone who isn't in both lists.
5) Then, you add the positions (not scores) from each category for anyone who ranked in both lists.
5a) If noone qualifies for both list, best VP wins (and gets both 1st Battle and Tourney Champion prizes it'd seem)

Step 5 This is where the "low" value matters. A person who finished first in both categories will have "2 points". A person who finished in 4th place in painting, 7th place in VP will have "11 points". A person who finished in 5th place in painting, 5th place in VP will have "10 points". So, between the players, the person with the lowest "2 points" is the winner, the person with "10" came second, and the person with "11" came third.

Basically, the problem is resetting the rankings. Instead of ranking everyone from 1-20, with one being the best, if they ranked them 1-20, twenty being the best, Step 5 no longer needs to use the "low", and the potential for confusion is removed.

While it's not an uncommon occurance, the chances of the seven prizes going to seven people seems unlikely. Heck, the chance of the Tourney Champion going to someone who didn't at least place in one category is pretty damned slim. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it is something to consider. I know other tournaments typically have an exclusionary rule (the Tourney Winner is removed from the rankings for finding positions on the other separate awards.

Morgan: Thanks for the further thought-out post.

I would say that not many games tackle differing environments:

I think the "Lancer" is a space only unit so I can only see the games getting more "interesting" than less whenever we see Wave2.
One thing I either missed or was not addressed is for the "space" scenario: what modes are valid for the Valks?
Just being in jet mode zipping around with the weird rules for those would be a ton of strafing runs.
Never-mind how the pods move: leap move only in space?

Battletech and it's derivative Alpha-strike addresses water combat and aerospace fighters.
Don't even talk about how a critical can flood sections of a mech and cause all manner of nastiness.

Not many games have model swap-outs due to changing:

Unless we get into some werewolf skirmish game or something or cannons deployed from the limber carriage.
The bolt-on hardware is rather unique, I cannot think of anything equivalent.

Well, getting limited product for advantage is nothing new, MTG springs to mind or any company that toys with "pay to win".

For the use of alternative cards I think it was a concession on their part: prove you have the actual product if asked (stowed somewhere) but allow for copies to prevent damage / theft / loss. That is what I interpreted, cup half full for once.

For the various model "guides" it is just a mess. "Don't be all modeling for advantage but we must allow for artistry unless we don't like it." Yep, clear as mud.

Overly written... yeah, but it sure is light years better than a Kevin update for facts and would not be allowed to be confused for an FAQ for the rules.

The whole thing will be stuffed in a corner anyway by the sounds of things and still makes fielding UEDF a royal pain when they should be rewarded for all the hard work.

I'm not sure MTG is a very good comparison, as it has a level of collectibility/randomness that usually isn't found in (non-pre-built/pre-painted) miniatures games.

Maybe Heroclix or Monsterpocalypse might be better examples? (admittedly; pre-built, pre-painted, but here we are)

And even then, the random element is well known in advance. Plus, there are orders of magnitude more figures available in most of those cases. There are, what, maybe a couple hundred Miriya figures 'in the wild'? I never got into either, but much like Magic, my friends that were generally just bought singles, and barring particularly 'limited edition' Hyper Ultra Tournament Edition style pieces, it rarely broke the bank to hear them tell it.

Plus, "pay to win" is generally seen as a disdainful practice, so embracing it is worthy of a little eye rolling anyway. Having LE figures for pure aesthetics is one thing. People who attended a convention or were willing to pay Ebay rates to get to field another figure type seems a bit crass.

Another week, another weekly update.

We are still working on a lot of different things for RRT, but hope to have a couple of big announcements coming very soon.

'Very soon', guys!

What's the worst that can happen? The last time we got months of useless platitudes in a row, didn't we get exactly the mouthwatering minis we were promised exactly when they said we'd get the complete KS rewards?

It is nice to see that the dice bag literally gets more press coverage in the release than the 2/3 of the rewards in the $1.4 million KS. The painting guide that they already spent months "updating" us on last year gets as much mention as all of wave 2. Also, the paper "miniatures" get craploads more coverage than any other minis and no one freaking cares about them but they're made by one of the biggest fanfriends on their forums who wants to be an employee so bad it hurts so they get a mention everytime (like the painting guide did).

Finally, I suspect one of the big news items is the inevitable Robotech mousepad since that is the new item for the other games. I'm sure they'll advertise the hell out of that just like the stupid dice bag.

There is already a Robotech mousepad or two out. Surely a third vendor of it isn't really note worthy?!?

 megatrons2nd wrote:
There is already a Robotech mousepad or two out. Surely a third vendor of it isn't really note worthy?!?

Whether something is truely noteworthy or not isn't relevant to Palladium. See the press release coverage over the past month for the dice bag compared with Wave 2.

Well. unfortunately for us, Palladium PRODUCING anything tangible is a Big Thing(TM) for them.

There promoting the heck out of it so at the end of the year Kevin can say they released more than three or four books. That, and I figure since there in way over their head, and they even don't know where there at, concerning wave two.

Wanna guess how much robotech stuff I saw at the largest wargaming show in Europe?