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**Cypher-xv**

Talizvar wrote:
Cypher-xv wrote:
Even on PB's FB page there getting a lot of flack for their lack of honesty. I can't blame them.
People giving the flack or PB finding honesty is bad business in their eyes?
Am I a bad person avoiding Facebook?
Oddly, I would have no issues with my real name associated with my comments.

I was too honest with how I feel we've been treated and called into question his integrity several times. So now that he figured out you can ban people I got the boot.LoL

**Eadartri**

Cypher-xv wrote:
Talizvar wrote:
Cypher-xv wrote:
Even on PB's FB page there getting a lot of flack for their lack of honesty. I can't blame them.
People giving the flack or PB finding honesty is bad business in their eyes?
Am I a bad person avoiding Facebook?
Oddly, I would have no issues with my real name associated with my comments.

I was too honest with how I feel we've been treated and called into question his integrity several times. So now that he figured out you can ban people I got the boot.LoL

What? You were banned from Palladium's Facebook or forum page?

**Cypher-xv**

Their FB page.

**Talizvar**

Well, the KS comments are the last bastion of anything goes, as demonstrated by the regulars.

Our Dakka mods I am sure are perplexed of such a large thread with a thin veneer of civility.

BTW: I think I had been "pre" banned at the PB site.
Is it bad to use the same name as here?

**warboss**

Welcome to the world of (palladium) precrime!

. Are you guys really being banned on the official forums for stuff you say in the is comments? Or are you getting trumped up "trolling" charges on the forums instead?

**Alpharius**

Talizvar wrote:

Our Dakka mods I am sure are perplexed of such a large thread with a thin veneer of civility.

I can't speak for all of them, but I certainly am!

At this point, due to the rather...draconian nature of PB's own board and Facebook page, I guess this thread is serving as an outlet for a lot of stuff that would normally go to those places?

But at 332 pages in, and Wave 2 nowhere in sight?

I can't imagine the places we'll go in here...

**Morgan Vening**

Talizvar wrote:
Well, the KS comments are the last bastion of anything goes, as demonstrated by the regulars.

Our Dakka mods I am sure are perplexed of such a large thread with a thin veneer of civility.

BTW: I think I had been "pre" banned at the PB site.
Is it bad to use the same name as here?

Depends. If you're new to the PB Forums, your first couple of posts won't go through until a moderator checks them. Apparently it's an anti-spam feature. After a couple of "approved" posts, you no longer get held up.

Of course, given the nature of the moderators over there, I wouldn't be surprised if they've tagged names of certain people for higher levels of scrutiny. As Warboss intimated, you don't need to do anything wrong to get punted. You just need to give out the "vibe" that you're not a fanboi, and anything even remotely hostile gets you disciplined (warnings, then bans). If you're a flunky though, you can be quite hostile in defense of failures and still retain posting capability. Cause what's the point of the moderators having power, if they can't abuse it in the name of their once and future Ding.

**Cypher-xv**

I've noticed that too Morgan. The mods at PB they'll lock a thread after the fanboys had their visceral say.

**MangoMadness**

I wonder what theycwouod do if you overloaded their forum with extreme positivity.

Every statement 7s 'the most awesome thing i have ever read' anything the mods say is 'genius'.

Would they boot you for extreme sarcasm?

**Joyboozer**

Hasn't happened to all the regulars that do exactly that, how would they recognise the sarcastic ones?

**warboss**

MangoMadness wrote:
I wonder what theycwouod do if you overloaded their forum with extreme positivity.

Every statement 7s 'the most awesome thing i have ever read' anything the mods say is 'genius'.

Would they boot you for extreme sarcasm?

Someone did that for a while (Forar? Cypher?) a year ago or more where they just kept posting that Palladium is the most awesomestly awesome game in the world and commented on every stupid thing they did sarcastically in that particularly cultist fan friend tone. I don't recall if there were any reprecussions though other than locked threads.

**Alpharius**

Alpharius wrote:
Talizvar wrote:

Our Dakka mods I am sure are perplexed of such a large thread with a thin veneer of civility.

I can't speak for all of them, but I certainly am!

At this point, due to the rather...draconian nature of PB's own board and Facebook page, I guess this thread is serving as an outlet for a lot of stuff that would normally go to those places?

But at 332 pages in, and Wave 2 nowhere in sight?

I can't imagine the places we'll go in here...

http://www.play-board-games.com/robotech-rpg-tactics-review/

I really enjoyed Robotech as a kid and this game feels like the show. It is fast-paced, things explode and may die quickly.

Command Points really make the system hum. They are vital to avoid damage, to make extra attacks or steal your opponent’s activation. Many of the starting Zentraedi forces do not contribute CPs. So the Zentraedi player needs to keep their leader units safe so they can provide much needed support.

The rules are pretty streamlined once you are used to the abilities and flow of the game. The ruleset has enough depth without a ton of extra complexity. The combat round is a quick, back and forth affair that makes sense. Still you might need some rules clarification so check out this living FAQ.

I also really like you can measure thins before you act. I really don’t like war games that require you to commit to a move only to find it is out of range. Getting to measure first is great.

There are some things to be aware of though. First it is a lot of work to get all the miniatures assembled. Then you will probably want to paint them. You almost need to just to tell different units apart. And for units that are posed and painted the same you might need another way to differentiate them. There are decals but they seem tiny and intimidating.

Missiles seem over-powered. Having anti-missile weaponry helps but they can put out a bunch of damage at once. This is accurate to the show but can be tough in the game.

I wish the starter box had more variety of Zentraedi units. The squadrons of Regults work fine but having some different units would be cool. The UEDF has a lot more options for builds right out of the box. FYI to build a 300 point army you need more than the starter. It has enough units to build to mid-sized armies but know you’ll need more.

Robotech RPG Tactics is a fun, tactical miniatures game. It has many modes of play and fans of the show will enjoy its faithfulness to the series. But it is a lot of work just to play. If you are a board gamer and are used to having pre-assembled and pre-painted miniatures you might want to pass on this. Or at least look around at some of the blogs and videos showing you what it takes to play this game. If you are a miniatures war gamer it probably depends on your love for the subject matter. If you and some friends really like Robotech pick this up you’ll enjoy it and can divide some of the work.

Score and synopsis: (Click here for an explanation of these review categories.)
Strategy 4 out of 6
Luck 5 out of 6
Player Interaction 6 out of 6
Replay Value 5 out of 6
Complexity 4 out of 6
Fun 4 out of 6
Overall 4 out of 6

**Talizvar**

Thanks Alpharious, I would agree the review is pretty accurate in all points. Their scoring does not seem to take into account amount of build time / skill needed to get to play. I find that is the #1 barrier to entry from anyone I talked to. It is almost a mistake to show a Veritech and mention 20 parts.

On the moderator end of things, I can understand the difference of a third party hosted discussion vs. one that is trying to sell a product. It is just rather shocking how anything less than a thumbs-up is actively discouraged by PB. Maelstrom is too well run to challenge overly as a comparison.

**warboss**

I've been painting up some tau and the "update" on robotech wave 2 got me thinking about the two in comparison (at least their sizes). When you're working at a bigger scale like 28mm, things that are visually impressive for minis are sometimes hard to visually translate. I found some online size comparison pics (so I can't verify if the original image resizes are 100% correct) and tried to match up the "human" models. I pasted the tau mecha size comparison image twice into the pic on the left 1/4 of the way down (above the MAC II) and on the bottom right near the Alpha Veritech. The biggest tau mech in normal 40k (the riptide) is the size of an REF destroid (the ones that are about 2/3 the size of the models we have). The standard crisis suit (which is bigger than almost all the TAGs in infinity) is somewhere between a bioroid and a cyclone. It's weird how the stuff scales together. I'm curious how the 40k titans like the brand new warlord titan fit in. I'm guessing the warlord is roughly the size of a zentraedi mecha.

**Talizvar**

I was looking at the open house pictures from PB.
Seemed kinda sad, bunch of old guys like me, no kids visible in attendance.
Not many people to speak of.
The big ships were awesome to see.
It just seems despite the 5000 backers, not much is going on.
I am hearing the crickets chirping.
Why do I feel this game will eventually go in the same corner as my Cyberpunk RPG and Bridge Commander game.
Rather sad, anyone other than these guys could have made this into something special for even those who did not grow up with the show.

I am a bit of a completionist so this drawing out of releases and PB's notorious financial boggles are a bit of a worry.

**Stormonu**

Just some random musings (which I'm probably wrong on):

Looking back at update #156, there is a picture of crates marked "Main Box". There is 3 per crate, and 5824 crates. That's 17,472 core game boxes created for Wave 1. Of those, 6,684 for reserved for backers. That means, not counting anyone who sought a refund, they have 10,788 core sets to get rid of - not counting who knows how many add-on boxes. Personally, I'd be surprised if more than half (5,000) of those boxes went out to retail stores. If productions costs are right at 50% (which have got to be MUCH lower), it's pretty obvious they blew through the funds on getting Wave 1 out the door (at 50%, that would be $873,163.20 for core boxes - not likely that high, I think).

Compare that to what Kevin said in the last e-mail murmur that one of their typical book runs is in the 300-600 print range. Their typical book sells for $15-20, so that's about $4,500 to $12,000 net from a book run, which might give them somewhere between $2,250 - $6,000 profit (if their lucky). Unfortunately, I don't know how long it takes them to go through a print run, but I gander it's 3-6 months at best. So, from a single book they're possibly making between $375 - $2,000 a month per "new" book. I imagine that books that are 6+ months old sell only a handful of copies apiece ... don't have any idea what their sell rate is, but assuming between 1-5 copies per title, we're looking at 196 titles @ $15-20 each ($2,940 - $19,600 net total, $1,470 - $9,800 profit at 50%).

Finally, in the last murmur where Kevin mentions crowdfunding the next OH, it sounds like there were about 70 people in attendance. My local Hubcon is about that size and that's 2/3ths the size of my graduating High School class from 86' in Mississippi! At $60 a head (when prices went up), that means they raked in somewhere around $4,200 (probably less) net. And they only do this once every three years or so.

Why do I mention all this? Well, if the cost of the figures for Wave 2 are anywhere near the costs for Wave 1 (assuming they blew the $1.4M wad on the first run), look at what sort of skyscraper Palladium is looking at to acquire the funds to pay for it. If my seat-of-the-pants calculations are anywhere close, PB is looking at 147+ months (12 years, 3 months) to rebuild the capital to produce Wave 2 from its "day to day" sales.

If anyone has some better/closer numbers on what PB earns, I'd certainly like to hear it, because those numbers above certainly do not inspire confidence for PB completing Wave 2.

**warboss**

Two words... Robotech DicebagTM!

**Cypher-xv**

Stormonu wrote:
Just some random musings (which I'm probably wrong on):

Looking back at update #156, there is a picture of crates marked "Main Box". There is 3 per crate, and 5824 crates. That's 17,472 core game boxes created for Wave 1. Of those, 6,684 for reserved for backers. That means, not counting anyone who sought a refund, they have 10,788 core sets to get rid of - not counting who knows how many add-on boxes. Personally, I'd be surprised if more than half (5,000) of those boxes went out to retail stores. If productions costs are right at 50% (which have got to be MUCH lower), it's pretty obvious they blew through the funds on getting Wave 1 out the door (at 50%, that would be $873,163.20 for core boxes - not likely that high, I think).

Compare that to what Kevin said in the last e-mail murmur that one of their typical book runs is in the 300-600 print range. Their typical book sells for $15-20, so that's about $4,500 to $12,000 net from a book run, which might give them somewhere between $2,250 - $6,000 profit (if their lucky). Unfortunately, I don't know how long it takes them to go through a print run, but I gander it's 3-6 months at best. So, from a single book they're possibly making between $375 - $2,000 a month per "new" book. I imagine that books that are 6+ months old sell only a handful of copies apiece ... don't have any idea what their sell rate is, but assuming between 1-5 copies per title, we're looking at 196 titles @ $15-20 each ($2,940 - $19,600 net total, $1,470 - $9,800 profit at 50%).

Finally, in the last murmur where Kevin mentions crowdfunding the next OH, it sounds like there were about 70 people in attendance. My local Hubcon is about that size and that's 2/3ths the size of my graduating High School class from 86' in Mississippi! At $60 a head (when prices went up), that means they raked in somewhere around $4,200 (probably less) net. And they only do this once every three years or so.

Why do I mention all this? Well, if the cost of the figures for Wave 2 are anywhere near the costs for Wave 1 (assuming they blew the $1.4M wad on the first run), look at what sort of skyscraper Palladium is looking at to acquire the funds to pay for it. If my seat-of-the-pants calculations are anywhere close, PB is looking at 147+ months (12 years, 3 months) to rebuild the capital to produce Wave 2 from its "day to day" sales.

If anyone has some better/closer numbers on what PB earns, I'd certainly like to hear it, because those numbers above certainly do not inspire confidence for PB completing Wave 2.

If say your anywhere close to being right, then that might help explain why they've been ducking their heads in the sand. Kevin thought this was going to sell out, but due to so much bad press it's not happening. If Kevin came out and told the truth (for once, am I right :p) that he blew through most of the rrt money on wave one and doesn't have enough for wave two because of it that would be the end of PB. The backers would go nuts (understandably so) and there'd be another financial crises for Kevin due to people suing (Rick) Kevin. Sadly I've thought for a long time that's what's happened with the money. If that were the case is he using rrt money to fund the models produced by GHQ? If so this could be a Hail Mary for him to get more money from the gullible to pay for wave two.

**Sining**

Time for KS #2, to get more money for wave 1. A KS by KS.

In all honesty, I don't think PB has blown the entire wad of cash but I can't imagine things are good for them considering I know shipping costs have increased quite a bit since then and they have to do TWO waves. Must be eating up a fair chunk of money for the international backers

**Albertorius**

Sining wrote:
Time for KS #2, to get more money for wave 1. A KS by KS.

In all honesty, I don't think PB has blown the entire wad of cash but I can't imagine things are good for them considering I know shipping costs have increased quite a bit since then and they have to do TWO waves. Must be eating up a fair chunk of money for the international backers

It's the bed they made, though, so now they have to try and sleep on it. Can't say I'm able to muster much sympathy.

**MangoMadness**

warboss wrote:
Two words... Robotech DicebagTM!

Dont forget the mouse pads.

Shoukd we run a sweep on what will be next?

Mugs, keyrings, tshirts? Who knows

**Morgan Vening**

Stormonu wrote:
Just some random musings (which I'm probably wrong on):

Looking back at update #156, there is a picture of crates marked "Main Box". There is 3 per crate, and 5824 crates. That's 17,472 core game boxes created for Wave 1. Of those, 6,684 for reserved for backers. That means, not counting anyone who sought a refund, they have 10,788 core sets to get rid of - not counting who knows how many add-on boxes. Personally, I'd be surprised if more than half (5,000) of those boxes went out to retail stores. If productions costs are right at 50% (which have got to be MUCH lower), it's pretty obvious they blew through the funds on getting Wave 1 out the door (at 50%, that would be $873,163.20 for core boxes - not likely that high, I think).

I think that number is way off. I wouldn't be surprised if the price point was less than 15% per box, less than 25% including freight shipping to Michigan, if not lower. Given that depending on the distributor terms, PB would be selling to them for between 40-50% of retail, and then the distributors selling to the retailer for 50-60% of retail, anything less than 30% in production costs would not return profit (as you've also got developmental time). You do bring up a good point though, and it's a couple of questions I'd like to (but know I will never) see addressed.

What was the cost of the production run of the backer rewards? What was the additional cost* of the production run of the retail amount? Were Kickstarter funds used to pay for the second sum? Were the shipping costs similarly paid for as a lump sum out of KS funds, or were they split proportionally?

* Production isn't a linear progression. Typically, the first X costs a certain amount, then subsequent numbers cost less. For example, the first 1000 might cost $30 per box. The next 4000 might cost $25 per box. The next 5000 might cost $20 per box, etc.

Stormonu wrote:
If anyone has some better/closer numbers on what PB earns, I'd certainly like to hear it, because those numbers above certainly do not inspire confidence for PB completing Wave 2.

You're also right on that if they've spent significantly into, let alone all of the funding from the KS, you're right to be concerned over Wave 2. It'll be interesting to see if KevCo show any significant PHYSICAL progress of where Wave 2 sits, week after next. If they refuse to show (or have none to show) any PPP's or test sprues, and it's just words, or even a few digital sculpts (given ND's statement that they were all done months ago), I'd think December is a pipe-dream, and there'd be a small, but not irrelevant chance that the project will fail.

We'll know at GenCon for sure though. If they have nothing new to show (beyond the same PPP's we've seen for over a year), other than maybe these three new promo figures, given that the game will have been out for 8 months, it'll be a critical sign. I'd expect nearly any other company to have new product for sale. Not even having something to point at and go "soon(TM)", would be a bad sign.

**Talizvar**

Stormonu: I think you might have hit the nail on the head.

I knew something was bugging me when I saw all those boxes in the PB warehouse at their openhouse.
It is VERY easy to see PB being unable to budget appropriately to figure out what Wave 2 would cost to produce.
It is VERY easy to see PB getting greedy and wanting a lot of product for retail sale and not figuring out an appropriate point to stop.

Q: So it makes sense that if most of the planning stages are done what is the holdup?
A: Too much capital held in retail product.

I feel like an idiot to not see this coming, it makes too much sense with their behavior.

I wonder who decided how big the retail run should be and if any budgeting was a consideration.
"Gee, shucks folks, we spent the wad on wave one retail and we don't know when we will have the money to get Wave 2 going, so we suggest you buy as much of our stuff you can!"

Worst part is we all received "something" so they can claim we have no right to complain, my problem is I bought a fair bit of stuff on the KS manager that are all contained in Wave 2.
So at what point can I get my money back on a product that may take years to ever see (if at all)?
I can also see why they are trying to position well for another KS: it wont be the first time the second KS helps pay for the unfinished first one.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Albertorius wrote:
It's the bed they made, though, so now they have to try and sleep on it. Can't say I'm able to muster much sympathy.

The really irritating part is they will try and possibly succeed in not having to face the consequences of their bad decisions.
Historically they rarely do.
Then they tell some sob story and ask for handouts.

I have a suspicion I may have to teach them how to make a home-brew spin-caster for this next "Wave 1-1/2" if even those models are to be made.
I may have to chip in some low-melt metal as well.
Possibly make the molds.
And get the models printed or sculpt by hand.

Any bets on how hopeless they are going to be with this?

**warboss**

MangoMadness wrote:
warboss wrote:
Two words... Robotech DicebagTM!

Dont forget the mouse pads.

Shoukd we run a sweep on what will be next?

Mugs, keyrings, tshirts? Who knows

They also make Rifts pencils which were introduced years ago with the multiweek fanfare extravanganza that the dice bag just got (both of which easily eclipse the wave 2 coverage by far). Basically, if you can either find it in a gas station store "business" section or other companies give it away for free, Palladium will spend days designing something that you can create in minutes and then spend weeks advertising it.

**Talizvar**

Alpharius wrote:
But at 332 pages in, and Wave 2 nowhere in sight?
I can't imagine the places we'll go in here...

Oh, the places we are going to go from here if any of this is true.
I will have to refer to the forum rules more than a few times to keep from being banned.
Can I at least make a few comments about Kevin S.'s dubious lineage?
Physical violence is not socially or legally acceptable.
Pursuit of legal claims seem rather dubious and would only tank any remaining funds they may have to finish the KS.
What is particularly irritating is it also seems to be inappropriate to get all this worked-up over "man-dollies".

**warboss**

Morgan Vening wrote:

What was the cost of the production run of the backer rewards? What was the additional cost* of the production run of the retail amount? Were Kickstarter funds used to pay for the second sum? Were the shipping costs similarly paid for as a lump sum out of KS funds, or were they split proportionally?

While I don't think that the design and kickstarter fulfillment costs of wave 1 ate up most of the budget despite the massive delays and wasteful advertising, I do wholeheartedly think they spend a ton of the KS money to produce the retail models as well instead of earmarking it for wave 2. I'm sure they expected massive sales due to the KS's level of success and with only the 100% sunshine feedback they get/allow probably expected it to continue. Do I have any inside knowledge of actual sales figures? No. Am I biased due to being a disgruntled KS backer? Probably. But I'm also looking at my local scene as well as informally polling my friends. No one I've talked to about it (whether backer or not) has bought anything since it was released at retail. YMMV of course.

Morgan Vening wrote:

We'll know at GenCon for sure though. If they have nothing new to show (beyond the same PPP's we've seen for over a year), other than maybe these three new promo figures, given that the game will have been out for 8 months, it'll be a critical sign. I'd expect nearly any other company to have new product for sale. Not even having something to point at and go "soon(TM)", would be a bad sign.

I do agree that this upcoming gencon will be the necessary big litmus test to make a "metacritic" style initial score for the game combined with the experience posted online from other events (like Adepticon, the open house, origins). Could things change after that? Possibly, but it is unlikely.

In the end, I do think that Palladium will keep their promise and deliver something of similar quality to wave 1 in wave 2. I do think as well though that they'll use the retail sales to fund it instead which will further delay the full delivery to backers and we'll likely get the 6 month shipping roll out starting sometime early next year. Even if they get the products in 2015, I fully expect them to flagrantly break their wave 2 promise of "backers first" (remember, the vote was specifically for gencon and wave 1) without even bothering to "ask" after the fact this time.

**Forar**

Talizvar wrote:
What is particularly irritating is it also seems to be inappropriate to get all this worked-up over "man-dollies".

The way I see it, it's entirely appropriate to get worked up over a company taking funding for a product (any product) in the amounts per person they did and seem to handle it so incompetently.

Whether it's the most worthy thing in the world or a pile of poop in a box (...), when the average person hands over nearly $300 (and many people gave significantly more) on promises of a project being 'almost done' and such immense confidence, it's not unreasonable to be frustrated and annoyed at this point.

**Talizvar**

warboss wrote:
In the end, I do think that Palladium will keep their promise and deliver something of similar quality to wave 1 in wave 2. I do think as well though that they'll use the retail sales to fund it instead which will further delay the full delivery to backers and we'll likely get the 6 month shipping roll out starting sometime early next year. Even if they get the products in 2015, I fully expect them to flagrantly break their wave 2 promise of "backers first" (remember, the vote was specifically for gencon and wave 1) without even bothering to "ask" after the fact this time.

This is where in my opinion you are "actually" being an optimist.
My suspicion is that sales of retail product will be a trickle.
Other PB product will continue to decline in sales and they will lean on RRT for operating money.
The big splash of all this extra PB "trinket" releases are recognition of needing the funds to meet commitments.
I fully expect some funding campaign will be trotted out one way or another and payment for Wave 2 shipping I "bet" will be demanded when / if the time comes.
I also expect Wave 2 product will be simultaneous release to retail (with slight favoritism to retail) since I suspect they would be financially tapped-out at that point.
I fully expect Wave 2 to be targeted just before Gencon 2016 about a month before to be sure they do not miss it. (<edit> good luck to them...)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Forar wrote:
Whether it's the most worthy thing in the world or a pile of poop in a box (...), when the average person hands over nearly $300 (and many people gave significantly more) on promises of a project being 'almost done' and such immense confidence, it's not unreasonable to be frustrated and annoyed at this point.

You are too kind, but do not give any justification for me to get even further on my high horse: it is not pretty.

I want my wave 2 "poop in a box" so I can get on in my life ignoring PB and hold a little party when they close their doors (was that out loud??).

**warboss**

@Talizvar: Lol, who pee'd in your half glass full?

You were one of the relatively happy folks in the thread going back a month or two ago. You were making models with loud music and booze, running demos, and making up house rules to your heart's content just a few pages back.. and now you're calling a grouch like me an optimist!

**Merijeek**

Morgan Vening wrote:

What was the cost of the production run of the backer rewards? What was the additional cost* of the production run of the retail amount? Were Kickstarter funds used to pay for the second sum?

Oh, absolutely. The idea of KS isn't to squeak by just enough cash to fulfill the backer rewards. What would be the point? And don't give me some horsegak about "making dreams come true" because that applies to about 5% of the KS projects out there at this point.

The problem here is they, apparently, aren't selling. Combined with a company of people who can't plan beyond the next few weeks (I'm being generous there) and who probably didn't even get as sophisticated as a spreadsheet when it came to cost projection and planning.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Don't consider it getting worked up over "man-dollies", consider it getting worked up over "fraud" and "lies".