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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/18 23:42:33
Subject: New Pathfinder Loadouts?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Okay, so, here's the challenge:
You have two boxes of pathfinders available to you. This means, you have 20 pathfinders, 6 ion rifles, 6 rail rifles, and 2 of each of the 'special drones'. What would be the most effective way of fielding them, in your opinion, and why?
At this point, this is what I'm thinking:
2 5-man squads with 3 rail or ion rifles (depending on opponent), no further upgrades
1 10-man squad with pulse carbines, shas'ui upgrade, pulse-accelorator and grav drone
My reasoning is that you can have the 10-man squad work for marking targets for the two 5-man squads to light up, boosting the BS skill and denying cover saves. Reason for having 5-man squads instead of 4 is that at 4 you only need to lose one to have to pass a moral check, while at 5, you need 2 to lose that 25% necessary for the moral check. The two 5-man squads will come under fire fairly quickly, of course, so their whole purpose is to take out hard enemy targets, make up their point cost and some, then soak up fire as your opponent seeks revenge. The pulse-carbine pathfinders in a 10-man squad will be more useful in late game, since your opponent will have (usually) closed the distance a bit more, making the carbines more effective.
The downside to this, of course, is that you leave your 5-man squads rather squishy, if they don't get good cover, and you fill up all three of your fast-attack slots this way, leaving less choices for Piranhas or other fun things.
So, what're your thoughts?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/18 23:45:24
Subject: Re:New Pathfinder Loadouts?
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Douglas Bader
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20 Pathfinders with carbines and markerlights, divided up depending on your other fast attack options. The weapon upgrades all suck, and the drones are marginal at best. The only upgrade I'd even consider is the recon drone, and only if I have units that I expect to use it consistently.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/18 23:50:20
Subject: Re:New Pathfinder Loadouts?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Yeah, I'm not really a fan of the Ion Rifle, unless I was going up against Eldar, Dark Eldar, or Orks, where you have to deal mostly with 4+ armor. Three S7 AP4 blasts on a squad of 'ard nobs would do some damage. The Rail Rifles have potential, I think, especially in this age of numerous deepstriking Dark Angel terminators. I'll have to play around with it over the next few game nights and figure it out. Or do a math-hammer breakdown, heh.
I think the Pulse Accelerator drone is a must for a 10-man squad. +6" range on your pulse carbines? That sounds fantastic to me! The grav-drone is a bit iffy to me, but I can imagine putting that in combo with Darkstrider is just the most beautiful trolling ever.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/18 23:52:06
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/19 00:04:17
Subject: Re:New Pathfinder Loadouts?
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Douglas Bader
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Viratin wrote:Three S7 AP4 blasts on a squad of 'ard nobs would do some damage.
Only if they're packed in close together. If they're spaced out at maximum coherency then three blasts is three hits, probably with cover. Since nobz are 2W models you're probably killing about one model.
The Rail Rifles have potential, I think, especially in this age of numerous deepstriking Dark Angel terminators.
Rail rifles suck because they're too expensive. Two Pathfinders with rail rifles is the same price as a crisis suit with two plasma rifles, and the crisis suit is T4/3+ instead of T3/5+ and can JSJ. Meanwhile they don't get target locks anymore so you're committing the entire squad to shooting at a rail rifle target instead of markerlighting.
I think the Pulse Accelerator drone is a must for a 10-man squad. +6" range on your pulse carbines? That sounds fantastic to me!
It's a waste of points because Pathfinders are there to markerlight priority targets, and if they use their markerlights they can't fire their carbines. The carbines are only relevant for overwatch, and 18" is almost always enough for that. The only time the drone would matter would be if you're using supporting fire and you need to push your maximum range out a bit more to extend half range for the Ethereal boost, and that's a pretty rare and irrelevant situation.
The grav-drone is a bit iffy to me, but I can imagine putting that in combo with Darkstrider is just the most beautiful trolling ever.
And then your opponent just charges a different unit instead, and shoots your T3/5+ Pathfinders to death. Grav drones would be useful if they could protect other units, but sadly they can't.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/19 00:20:56
Subject: New Pathfinder Loadouts?
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Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller
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I would never put darkstrider in pathfinders either. He effectively gives Firewarriors +1 BS (Mathwise) against anything T4/5/6/7. LD9, the ability to outflank and that consolidation. (Don't think one model in a unit with scout gives the whole unit scout.)
Don't downplay his interactions with the Icarus Lascannon either. (Just wish he had splitfire)
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Inquisitor Jex wrote:Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.
Peregrine wrote:So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/19 00:21:59
Subject: New Pathfinder Loadouts?
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Drop Trooper with Demo Charge
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What would you think of this load out
Darkstride Paladin Kauyon
Darkstride (Gives -1T to targets.. This goes well with rails as its now insta-gib) (also gives outflank for a bit of flexibility, this is how I deploy him with a recon drone setup to keep him safe)
3 Pathfinders w/Railrifles for that pretty Ap1 instagib and rapid fire makes them murderers within range!!
1 stock standard pathfinder.. Might as well marker light I figure
Whilst its tempting to get shield drones and Shas'ui etc.. It's just not worth it.. His already blows the cost with Dark and anything further would be futile..
TBH not the best unit, and has a VERY specific purpose making it nearly unusable in other situations.. But when you do get the drop on multi wound termies.. The look on their face when wiped by a 200 pt unit would be PRICELESS!!! Automatically Appended Next Post: Still, I would rely on multiple volleys from a crisis suit group any day!! Automatically Appended Next Post: I still maintain the best loadout, in regards to PFs is stock standard... Use scout to get up and into cover, use four marker lights and "light em up" two separate groups of four for well under 100pts is fethin A!! Remember ur playing Codex Markerlight now!!
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/04/19 00:53:17
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/19 07:00:31
Subject: Re:New Pathfinder Loadouts?
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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Peregrine wrote:Viratin wrote:Three S7 AP4 blasts on a squad of 'ard nobs would do some damage.
Only if they're packed in close together. If they're spaced out at maximum coherency then three blasts is three hits, probably with cover. Since nobz are 2W models you're probably killing about one model.
IIRC the blasts are S8, so they instant death T4 models. Actually pretty cool.
I think the Pulse Accelerator drone is a must for a 10-man squad. +6" range on your pulse carbines? That sounds fantastic to me!
It's a waste of points because Pathfinders are there to markerlight priority targets, and if they use their markerlights they can't fire their carbines. The carbines are only relevant for overwatch, and 18" is almost always enough for that. The only time the drone would matter would be if you're using supporting fire and you need to push your maximum range out a bit more to extend half range for the Ethereal boost, and that's a pretty rare and irrelevant situation.
Historically, yes. In the new codex I think we're much less reliant on pathfinders for markerlights. Pathfinders can now put out some serious damage if equipped for it: 10 pathfinders is putting out 20 shots at 18" or 24" with the drone; add some Rail/Ion rifles heavy weapons for even more punch. I'm not claiming this is cost effective, but with all the buffs they got they can do some serious hurting.
The downside is, as you point out, 5+ save. Which makes them only half as survivable as they used to be given how ubiquitous AP5 is.
Darkstrider + pathfinders I can see being useful in some rare situations, like with Ion Rifles vs Plague Marines, but other than that I think he's simply too expensive. You could take another entire pathfinder squad for the same price...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/19 07:18:48
Subject: Re:New Pathfinder Loadouts?
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Douglas Bader
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And not scoring, which is a huge difference when 5/6 missions involve objectives. If you want pulse fire then get Fire Warriors instead for more shots per point, 4+ armor, and scoring. Pathfinders are only worth it if you're using the markerlights.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/19 07:19:07
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/19 09:57:38
Subject: New Pathfinder Loadouts?
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Stalwart Strike Squad Grey Knight
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Viratin wrote:Okay, so, here's the challenge:
You have two boxes of pathfinders available to you. This means, you have 20 pathfinders, 6 ion rifles, 6 rail rifles, and 2 of each of the 'special drones'. What would be the most effective way of fielding them, in your opinion, and why?
At this point, this is what I'm thinking:
2 5-man squads with 3 rail or ion rifles (depending on opponent), no further upgrades
1 10-man squad with pulse carbines, shas'ui upgrade, pulse-accelorator and grav drone
My reasoning is that you can have the 10-man squad work for marking targets for the two 5-man squads to light up, boosting the BS skill and denying cover saves. Reason for having 5-man squads instead of 4 is that at 4 you only need to lose one to have to pass a moral check, while at 5, you need 2 to lose that 25% necessary for the moral check. The two 5-man squads will come under fire fairly quickly, of course, so their whole purpose is to take out hard enemy targets, make up their point cost and some, then soak up fire as your opponent seeks revenge. The pulse-carbine pathfinders in a 10-man squad will be more useful in late game, since your opponent will have (usually) closed the distance a bit more, making the carbines more effective.
The downside to this, of course, is that you leave your 5-man squads rather squishy, if they don't get good cover, and you fill up all three of your fast-attack slots this way, leaving less choices for Piranhas or other fun things.
So, what're your thoughts?
When I initially built my PFs, I was asked what I wanted them to do. Most basically, throw out Markerlights. So, I have 3 squads of 5 in 1500 points spread out dropping markers. But, that being said, I dont want them with rails or ions, I just want them to put out marker lights. You can imagine that if you have rails or ions that squad might be targeted earlier than the others, hence I guess I would have a few more than 5, probably drop one squad to make 2 squads instead of 3. Since I run a Farsight Enclave, I dont use the Recon Drone, Farsight doesnt scatter. I have read quite a few battle reports and see the 5 PF squads getting chewed up in CC, but thats no surprise. Anyhow, I do give them all one Grav-Inhibitor Drone to hopefully avoid a charge on them and give them a chance to maybe move out of the way, or pull them into more Supporting Fire, but thats just me...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/19 14:55:36
Subject: Re:New Pathfinder Loadouts?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Heh, kinda cool to see how many different loadouts people are coming up with ^_^ Guess we'll all have to do some experimenting this weekend with 'em and come back with our findings on effectiveness.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/19 15:37:40
Subject: Re:New Pathfinder Loadouts?
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Spawn of Chaos
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I plan on using 2 squads of 6 with no upgrades in 1500 pts.
I find a lot of there upgrades are almost useless. You are paying the points for markerlights, might as well use them. Sure they can have a lot of decent fire power for a price, but so can everything else in the codex as well being more durable. The gun upgrades should be cheaper since your trading a markerlight, not the pulse carbine which should be only used in desperate situations.
Just my thoughts on the subject  .
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"Mankind's greatest threat is Mankind itself"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/19 17:17:25
Subject: Re:New Pathfinder Loadouts?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Mmm, good point Kiggler!
Seems to me that our major question is, could an upgraded squad (or squads) of pathfinders make back their points cost in the course of a game? A 5-man squad of sniper pathfinders (with rail-rifles) costs about a hundred points. So, the question is, can this squad kill enough with 3 rail rifles to make back a 100 point cost? To me, if they kill 3 terminators, which they can relatively easily, they'll make their point cost back, +20%. They can also pop light vehicles with ease if they get a penetrating hit (if, mind you, this would have to be against armor 10 or 11), and they could probably make back their points right there. Assuming it's not a next-to-nothing point cost rhino. Automatically Appended Next Post: Spazamataz wrote:What would you think of this load out
Darkstride Paladin Kauyon
Darkstride (Gives -1T to targets.. This goes well with rails as its now insta-gib) (also gives outflank for a bit of flexibility, this is how I deploy him with a recon drone setup to keep him safe)
3 Pathfinders w/Railrifles for that pretty Ap1 instagib and rapid fire makes them murderers within range!!
1 stock standard pathfinder.. Might as well marker light I figure
Whilst its tempting to get shield drones and Shas'ui etc.. It's just not worth it.. His already blows the cost with Dark and anything further would be futile..
TBH not the best unit, and has a VERY specific purpose making it nearly unusable in other situations.. But when you do get the drop on multi wound termies.. The look on their face when wiped by a 200 pt unit would be PRICELESS!!!
Yeah, Darkstrider certainly makes any squad of Pathfinders a whole lot scarier. I've imagined using a 10-man squad with Darkstrider and a grav-drone. Practically immune to assault, especially if they're hiding in cover (which they always should). Move away D6", and lower enemy charge by D3", while they're making a 3d6 charge? Even if they have fleet, it's going to be a very, very tough assault.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/19 17:20:27
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/20 03:02:59
Subject: Re:New Pathfinder Loadouts?
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Douglas Bader
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Viratin wrote:Seems to me that our major question is, could an upgraded squad (or squads) of pathfinders make back their points cost in the course of a game?
Not at all. The question is whether upgrade Pathfinders can out-perform competing units with similar weapons/roles over the course of the game, and the answer is no, they can't. The fact that a unit can make its points back doesn't mean that another unit of equal price wouldn't do a better job.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/20 03:18:58
Subject: New Pathfinder Loadouts?
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Dakka Veteran
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Or you skip over the Pathfinders and Convert all the Gundrones you never used into markerdrones.. attach a Cheap commander with DC, VRT, and two marker drones to them. You now have a 15 man squad that can JSJ has 14 bs5 Marker lights that has mobility. Not only that they come with a higher toughness and a better save.
for 110 points you get 10 bs 3 Markerlights (~5 hit a turn)
for 285 (Commander with DC only and 2 marker drones) you get 14 bs 5 marker lights (~11.66hits a turn)
you pay 175 points extra (for the bare commander) for Relentless, JSJ, t4, Sv 4+ and Good ol BS 5 across the board...
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"I LIEK CHOCOLATE MILK" - Batman
"It exist because it needs to. Because its not the tank the imperium deserve but the one it needs right now . So it wont complain because it can take it. Because they're not our normal tank. It is a silent guardian, a watchful protector . A leman russ!" - Ilove40k
3k
2k
/ 1k
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/20 03:31:18
Subject: New Pathfinder Loadouts?
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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Ninjacommando wrote:Or you skip over the Pathfinders and Convert all the Gundrones you never used into markerdrones.. attach a Cheap commander with DC, VRT, and two marker drones to them. You now have a 15 man squad that can JSJ has 14 bs5 Marker lights that has mobility. Not only that they come with a higher toughness and a better save.
for 110 points you get 10 bs 3 Markerlights (~5 hit a turn)
for 285 (Commander with DC only and 2 marker drones) you get 14 bs 5 marker lights (~11.66hits a turn)
you pay 175 points extra (for the bare commander) for Relentless, JSJ, t4, Sv 4+ and Good ol BS 5 across the board...
Unfortunately, there are massive diminishing returns on Markerlights beyond 4-5 hits per firing unit, making units like this extremely inefficient.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/20 05:20:09
Subject: New Pathfinder Loadouts?
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Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine
HIDING IN THE METAL BAWKSES!!
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Kingsley wrote: Ninjacommando wrote:Or you skip over the Pathfinders and Convert all the Gundrones you never used into markerdrones.. attach a Cheap commander with DC, VRT, and two marker drones to them. You now have a 15 man squad that can JSJ has 14 bs5 Marker lights that has mobility. Not only that they come with a higher toughness and a better save.
for 110 points you get 10 bs 3 Markerlights (~5 hit a turn)
for 285 (Commander with DC only and 2 marker drones) you get 14 bs 5 marker lights (~11.66hits a turn)
you pay 175 points extra (for the bare commander) for Relentless, JSJ, t4, Sv 4+ and Good ol BS 5 across the board...
Unfortunately, there are massive diminishing returns on Markerlights beyond 4-5 hits per firing unit, making units like this extremely inefficient.
Dont go all marker drones, put some gun drones in (1 to 3 ratio maybe?), BS10 Pulse Carbine is nasty especially if you have ethereal buff. Give the commander burst cannon too.
That way you have a nasty squad for markerlights, killing infantry/light vehicles and support fire.
You can also put in puretide chip for monster hunter/tank hunter.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/04/20 05:27:17
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/20 05:29:56
Subject: New Pathfinder Loadouts?
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Douglas Bader
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Jackster wrote:Dont go all marker drones, put some gun drones in (1 to 3 ratio maybe?), BS10 Pulse Carbine is nasty especially if you have ethereal buff.
You realize that BS above 5 is utterly pointless on gun drones, and suffers from severe diminishing returns on standard weapons, right? Using markerlights to boost a unit to BS 10 is such a complete waste that I can't imagine any situation where I'd want to do it.
That way you have a nasty squad for markerlights, killing infantry/light vehicles and support fire.
Except it does none of these things well since no matter what you do with it you've got wasted points in the other upgrades.
You can also put in puretide chip for monster hunter/tank hunter.
Why would you waste your one chip on a mere Pathfinder squad when it can go with Riptides/Broadsides/Farsight/etc?
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/20 05:34:07
Subject: New Pathfinder Loadouts?
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Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine
HIDING IN THE METAL BAWKSES!!
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Peregrine wrote: Jackster wrote:Dont go all marker drones, put some gun drones in (1 to 3 ratio maybe?), BS10 Pulse Carbine is nasty especially if you have ethereal buff.
You realize that BS above 5 is utterly pointless on gun drones, and suffers from severe diminishing returns on standard weapons, right? Using markerlights to boost a unit to BS 10 is such a complete waste that I can't imagine any situation where I'd want to do it.
That way you have a nasty squad for markerlights, killing infantry/light vehicles and support fire.
Except it does none of these things well since no matter what you do with it you've got wasted points in the other upgrades.
You can also put in puretide chip for monster hunter/tank hunter.
Why would you waste your one chip on a mere Pathfinder squad when it can go with Riptides/Broadsides/Farsight/etc?
Eh? what? Those gun drones are BS5s due to drone control anyway, who said anything about using markerlights on them?
BS5 markerlights and BS5 twin-linked Pulse carbine plus a Burst cannon (or two) actually does all of that well.
And I wasnt talking about Pathfinders, that was a respond to the drone unit comment.
Basically the point was, if you want to take Commander plus drones, taking full markerlights is kinda wasteful, add something that can deal damage is more ideal.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/20 05:39:41
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/20 05:44:23
Subject: Re:New Pathfinder Loadouts?
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
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3 squads of 8 will Efficiently markerlight whatever you need, though if you're on a budget, 6 will do.
The boon of 8 is that it allows them some redundancy, or if you have Multiple High Priority targets, you can ensure a kill.
4 MLs on a LR is enough for you to take away any hope of cover and get BS5 on 3 -4 fusion guns (or potentially 8, if GW ever FAQs the wargear section.)
I don't believe that pathfinders should be used in any other capacity. The only other role they could fill out is outflanking EMP grenades, but since you can't charge on the turn you outflank (possibly the biggest load of horsegak I've ever heard, I might add), they'll get chewed out before they can take out that entire flank of Leman Russ.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/20 14:42:19
Subject: Re:New Pathfinder Loadouts?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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The Marker Drones thing isn't a bad idea at all. I hadn't read up on the drone controller a whole lot, but after checking it out, I agree, would be really nice for the marker drone squad.
Back to the original topic, I got to play two games last night with the new Tau, and apart from loving them entirely, here's a breakdown of how the pathfinders did:
I deployed in the first game with my rail-rifles set up in a building that was in the rear-middle of my gunline. At first I thought this would be good, allowing them to give close-range supporting fire to any side of the line. Quickly discovered that, while they were able to do so, were often out of their 15" sweet spot range. First game was against dark angels. They did make back their points cost, taking out a terminator squad that deep struck near the line, but only just. I deployed my 10-man squad, with the pulse carbines and drone upgrades (not recon drone, other two), in the middle of my gun-line, and found them to be very effective there. I did notice though that I never once used their pulse carbines, almost always instead finding it preferable, in the mostly ranged-fight I was in, to mark something and let my fire warriors do the lighting up. @Peregrine You were definitely right on the pulse-accelerator drone being unnecessary, I used the markers the whole game.
Second game, I deployed the rail-rifles on the flanks of my gun line, and kept the pathfinders in the middle. This time I was playing blood angels, and ended up having to deal with two squads of Sanguinary Guard in a Dante-Drop. The rail-rifles lit up one squad and tore it to shreds, and the nearby fire-warrior squad on the gun line finished off the rest of that squad, including Dante (yay 36 shots in rapid fire!). The other five-man squad of Sanguinaries went unscathed, but when they assaulted next turn, they got obliterated before even getting into assault. Had the adjacent pathfinder squad overwatch first with Markerlites, then had the Rail Rifles overwatch. Then had two squads of Fire Warriors to overwatch. Most of this shooting was only at BS2 or BS3, but it was sufficient to get the job done.
Overall, I find the Rail Rifles to not be a sniper weapon like they used to be. They ended up working best as a supporting fire weapon, placed at the back of your gun line, and did quite well in the position. I'm sure that some Crisis Suits will do the job just as well if not better, but until I get my hands on some pretty Forgeworld XV-9 Hazard suits, I'm not going to use the bricks with limbs. Aesthetics, can you blame me?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/20 16:40:11
Subject: New Pathfinder Loadouts?
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Sister Vastly Superior
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For my markerlight needs, I like a squad of deathrain suits with locks and a mark'o w/puretide, MSSS, and two marker drones.
8 BS5 markerlights, and tankhunting deathrains, all of whom ignore cover.
When you have spare points, the mark'o can pick up a flamer and something for overwatch, plus vrt (that squad is going to be priority target for everything quite often, despite jsj.
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I collect:
Guard - 2k of mostly infantry
DA - 2k of deathwing, 2k of other bits (no vehicles)
Sisters - mostly converted/proxy because I'm waiting for therange to go plastic.
Tau - 2k with no riptides because I can. |
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