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I'm just generally confused as the mechanics of how SM geneseed is handled. I realize how the general process works on an individual basis, but as an ongoing chapter practice, I don't really understand.

1. Progenoids: So they're removed when they're matured, or when space marines die. Does that mean that a) they grow back after they're harvested, b) Apothecaries only harvest glands from unmatured Space Marines when they die, c) the glands only mature when space marines die, or what? It doesn't make a great deal of sense, because if you can harvest unmature progenoids from dead marines and have it be worthwhile, why wouldn't you just remove them before every battle?

2. Similarly, if one gland (SM receive two progenoids) is required to make a full set of implant organs, does that mean each Space Marine can only lead to two "new" SM?

3. Related to above, the training process (and the existence of scouts) is a hazardous thing, and they have a tendency to die, and since these initiates wouldn't be providing mature progenoids, wouldn't that mean basically any losses to scouts (and below) are irreplaceable? Why would any chapter risk them until they're in full power armor?

4. Regarding geneseed tithes, how does the process of "analyzing" the gene seed work for 13th founding chapters who don't have any original samples to compare to?

5 . Also, what even happens if they find mutations within the geneseed? Sic the Grey Knights on them? Penitent crusade?

6. For chapters that are in decline and are incapable of producing enough geneseed to replace their numbers (a la Celestial Lions), what do they even turn in?

Alternatively failing that, is there any place I can read up on more detail? Everything I know I'm getting from Lexicanum.

Thanks.

1. Not sure if you're aware, the progenoid glands and the geneseed itself aren't really the same thing. Everything you actually put is correct - I'm sure there's a reason progenoids aren't removed early, but I forget exactly what.

2. Pretty much.

3. Apart from specific Chapters like Black Templars, the Scout mortality rate isn't actually all that bad. As I understand it, a Scout is more or less matured physically to Marine size, it's only their experience and skills that need bringing up to speed. If I'm right on that then their progenoids would still be fine.

4. Goodness knows... probably comparison to other foundings or with the earliest available sample instead.

5. Yes, possibly either or anything inbetween, depending on the Chapter's track record and level of mutation - a restriction for no further recruitment is also most likely. It's rare the Grey Knights themselves would be sent after them though, more likely another Chapter or strike force made up of various Chapters. If the Chapter's still spiritually loyal enough they might even turn themselves over.

6. Again, goodness knows. I doubt they'd be exempted but perhaps there's some kind of returns scheme.

Hospy wrote:
I'm just generally confused as the mechanics of how SM geneseed is handled. I realize how the general process works on an individual basis, but as an ongoing chapter practice, I don't really understand.

1. Progenoids: So they're removed when they're matured, or when space marines die. Does that mean that a) they grow back after they're harvested, b) Apothecaries only harvest glands from unmatured Space Marines when they die, c) the glands only mature when space marines die, or what? It doesn't make a great deal of sense, because if you can harvest unmature progenoids from dead marines and have it be worthwhile, why wouldn't you just remove them before every battle?

Progenoids do not grow back. The first one matures in 5 years and is fairly easy to remove via the neck and thus is usually removed soon after the 5 years is up. The second one, since it is underneath the black carapace and requires 10 years to mature,, would require an actual surgical environment to remove, whereas removal on the battlefield will kill them, as it's essentially sticking a giant circular saw directly through the marine's black carapace in order to remove it quickly. One theory that I have seen mentioned a few times is that while a progenoid may be mature at 10 years, it is believed that it continues to absorb and grow the longer it is in a marine. Thus some chapters hold a, possibly superstitious, belief that the longer a marine had their progenoids before removal, the more of their personality, honour, and battle prowess may be passed on to the scout lucky enough to receive it. Whether or not this is true isn't important, only that the chapters believe it to be true.

2. Similarly, if one gland (SM receive two progenoids) is required to make a full set of implant organs, does that mean each Space Marine can only lead to two "new" SM?

Yes it does. That is why the first one is removed quickly. So at least if the second is lost, the chapter's numbers can still be maintained.

3. Related to above, the training process (and the existence of scouts) is a hazardous thing, and they have a tendency to die, and since these initiates wouldn't be providing mature progenoids, wouldn't that mean basically any losses to scouts (and below) are irreplaceable? Why would any chapter risk them until they're in full power armor?

The progenoids is one of the last organs implanted in a scout and of those five years needed for the first to mature, 1 or 2 of them most likely are spent training in the fortress-monastery with the others being relatively light in terms of combat. Recon, flexible support, etc.

4. Regarding geneseed tithes, how does the process of "analyzing" the gene seed work for 13th founding chapters who don't have any original samples to compare to?

The AM aren't just comparing the geneseed to samples of that chapter, they're most likely also comparing to first founding chapters as well as any other chapter they think might be related. The first founding chapters had fairly unique genetic markers that can usually be used to identify a chapter's origins. However, mutation, manipulation, or even Inquisitorial stone-walling may mean that a sample does not match close enough to any of the original legions, and so it is left unknown.

5 . Also, what even happens if they find mutations within the geneseed? Sic the Grey Knights on them? Penitent crusade?

This is a MAJOR grey area and worthy of the commonly used answer of, "It depends." How much of a mutation? Are they still human? Is the geneseed still viable? Is it something that can be controlled or limited to a small sub-group of the chapter? All of these questions and dozens more would affect the decision of what happens to the chapter.

6. For chapters that are in decline and are incapable of producing enough geneseed to replace their numbers (a la Celestial Lions), what do they even turn in?

Probably nothing. While every chapter is required to turn in samples, unless someone gets an opening in their busy schedule of "keeping the Imperium from falling apart", it's doubtful that anyone will come and check. And those that are checked on, I feel are the exception rather than the rule, seeing as how chapters are lost and rediscovered all the time.

1. They don't grow back. The first set matures early and is easy to remove, so they get taken out as soon as they're able to. The second set requires longer and major surgical intervention. It's easier ti simply remove them from dead or near dead marines when you don't have to worry about the after effects of the surgery.

2. Yes, each space marine can create two more.

3. Remember that chapters have existed for thousands of years. They'd have very large stockpiles of gene-seed built up, given each marine can create 2 more.

5. It varies on how severe the mutation is and what standing the chapter has. The Blood Angels and Space Wolves have mutated gene-seed but have first founding status. They're left alone. The Flame Falcons however were purged by the Grey Knights.

6. It appears there's some leeway for submitting gene-seed. The Astral Claws didn't submit for a long time and didn't receive so much as a warning. Given the vagaries of warp travel and byzantine bureaucracy of the Administratum non submittence will likely pass under the radar.

Keep in mind the tithe is not very large, most chapters would be able to supply it. If they can't and are investigated for it, most rational Inquisitors would probably understand the Chapter had to rebuild first.

Also Chapters are actually able to withdraw the gene-seed they've tithed if they have to undergo sustained rebuilding.

Thanks, that definitely cleared one huge glaring misconception that I had about progenoids, I thought they removed them both at the same time but now it makes a lot more sense that they remove one on maturation and the other on death.

I'm still pretty hung up on the scouts/initiates thing. Here's my general train of thought:

1. From Lexicanum, each progenoid: "When they have matured each gland will have developed a single gene-seed corresponding to each of the zygotes which have been implanted into the Marine."

2. Scouts are initiates who have begun implantation of the zygotes, but are not full space marines since progenoids are the second to last implanted organ (and so can't be "harvested" if they fall). So assuming that scouts are incapable of passing on progenoids, their deaths are effectively irreplaceable with regards to geneseed.

Would it be a reasonable thought to think that chapters who have suffered grievous losses and want to restock would simply not field scouts given the liability that their potential loss represents?

Thanks!

As long as the marine survives till his first progenoid matures the chapter's numbers will not be reduced.

The only way they can grow is if the second set is recovered.