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The Tau Signature wargear pieces 'Command and Control Node' and 'Multi-Spectrum Sensor Suite' allow the bearer to buff other models in his unit with certain conditions:

"Command and Control Node:
If a model with this wargear does not shoot during the
Shooting phase, all Shooting attacks made by other
models in his unit re-roll failed To Hit rolls until the end
of the current phase. This cannot be used when firing
Overwatch. A Command and Control Node can be used
at the same time as a Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite."

The multi-spectrum sensor suite reads similarly.
Would these wargear work on Interceptor? Would the bearer also need to have interceptor?
If it does work with interceptor, what are the ramifications on this model's action in his next shooting phase - may he fire a weapon?

They do not work with Interceptor, since the rule specifies Shooting phase.

I obviously have way too much faith in humanity. I considered putting a disclaimer in...
Shooting happens in the shooting phase. The rules for shooting are all in a section of the book called 'the shooting phase'. The only way to resolve a shooting attack is to use the shooting phase rules. Plus there are any number of shooting rules that specifically mention the 'shooting phase'.

Suffice to say, I don't think that is a valid argument.

Trasvi wrote:
Shooting happens in the shooting phase. The rules for shooting are all in a section of the book called 'the shooting phase'. The only way to resolve a shooting attack is to use the shooting phase rules. Plus there are any number of shooting rules that specifically mention the 'shooting phase'.

This would be true, if you were talking about a weapon you're trying to shoot.
But it isn't, it's a piece of wargear that effects shooting. And it requires the Shooting Phase, with restrictions that apply to the Shooting Phase.
You're not making a shooting attack with it, which is what Interceptor allows.
So Happyjew is quite correct.

Overwatch is pretty much the same situation as Intercept, except it occurs in the movement phase rather than assault phase.
Using your logic, it obviously would not work on overwatch and thus there would be no need to point out that CNC didn't work. Then why was there a need to explicitly point out that it cannot be used on overwatch, but no need to point it out for interceptor??

Some other abilities which only work in the shooting phase are Multi-Trackers, and Monstrous creatures firing 2 weapons...

There's quite a difference between Overwatch and Interceptor.
Interceptor allows you to fire a weapon. Nothing more.
You're trying to use a piece of wargear, not fire a weapon. There is no allowance for this in the Interceptor rules.

Trasvi wrote:
I obviously have way too much faith in humanity. I considered putting a disclaimer in...
Shooting happens in the shooting phase. The rules for shooting are all in a section of the book called 'the shooting phase'. The only way to resolve a shooting attack is to use the shooting phase rules. Plus there are any number of shooting rules that specifically mention the 'shooting phase'.

Suffice to say, I don't think that is a valid argument.

Suffice to say, you wouldn't know what a valid argument was if it hit you in the face.

A valid argument is

if A then B
A therefore B

or

If A then B
Not B, therefore not A.

or

A
B
therefore C

or

If A then B
If B then C
A, therefore C.

I almost weep everytime someone says "That's not a valid argument", as usually you simply feel it is unsound.

An unsound argument that is valid is:

A. All wombats are mammals.
B. All Humans are Mamals
Therefore, All Humans are Wombats.

This follows the valid format

A
B
Therefore C

IT is not an invalid argument, merely an unsound one. Know the difference.

Trasvi wrote:
Overwatch is pretty much the same situation as Intercept, except it occurs in the movement phase rather than assault phase.
Using your logic, it obviously would not work on overwatch and thus there would be no need to point out that CNC didn't work. Then why was there a need to explicitly point out that it cannot be used on overwatch, but no need to point it out for interceptor??

Some other abilities which only work in the shooting phase are Multi-Trackers, and Monstrous creatures firing 2 weapons...

Overwatch is an allowance for any weapon capable of snap shooting to do so in the assault phase.

Interceptor is an allowance for weapons with that rule to fire normally in the movement phase.

Overwatch and interceptor is not the same, just because you make the assertion that they are.

It would seem that the C&C node does not work with interceptor or overwatch; simply because the condition "In the shooting phase" is not fulfilled. Interceptor is never done in the shooting phase, nor is overwatch, therefore you may not use the C&C node during those out-of-turn shooting actions.

however that does bring up the point of multitrackers and MC's in overwatch/interceptor. RAW, those too are under the same restrictions - but I personally have never seen people play that way, and it's certainly not gamebreaking in my opinion.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
A valid argument is...

Thankyou for the condescending tone, but I know quite a bit about formal logic. Perhaps I should have used the word 'unsound' or 'irrelevant'.

Trasvi wrote:
Overwatch is pretty much the same situation as Intercept, except it occurs in the movement phase rather than assault phase.
Using your logic, it obviously would not work on overwatch and thus there would be no need to point out that CNC didn't work. Then why was there a need to explicitly point out that it cannot be used on overwatch, but no need to point it out for interceptor??

Some other abilities which only work in the shooting phase are Multi-Trackers, and Monstrous creatures firing 2 weapons...

Overwatch is an allowance for any weapon capable of snap shooting to do so in the assault phase.
Interceptor is an allowance for weapons with that rule to fire normally in the movement phase.
Overwatch and interceptor is not the same, just because you make the assertion that they are.

Overwatch: "An overwatch attack is resolved just like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on. Unlike a normal shooting attack, Overwatch cannot cause Morale checks or Pinning tests. Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots. Therefore, weapons and models that cannot fire Snap Shots cannot fire Overwatch."

Interceptor: "At the end of the enemy Movement phase, a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from reserve within its range and line of sight. If the rule is used, the weapon cannot be fired in the net turn, but the firing model can shoot a different weapon if it has one. ..."

There is no significant difference in the mechanics of how the actual shooting is resolved in this situation, except that overwatch is snap shots and only snap shots. The similarity that they both have, is that both are NOT in the shooting phase.
Another common ability that explicitly says it applies in the shooting phase Monstrous Creatures' ability to shoot more that one weapon. Yet I've seen no-one try to claim that monstrous creatures can't shoot 2 weapons on overwatch.

If the phrase 'in the shooting phase' does not apply to Monstrous Creature (or Target Lock) on overwatch/interceptor, then it follows that it would also not apply to CNC - except that there is an phrase which explicitly says overwatch is not allowed, and no similar phrase for interceptor.

So GW doesn't write redundant rules?
That's what you're hinging your argument on, you do understand that right?

To use the C&C node you must elect not shoot in YOUR shooting phase. To elect not to do so must be done in the shooting phase of the owning player, by default making it only functional after your own shooting phase begins. Then the rule proceeds to state the effects last only until the end of the current phase. As such the benefits can not be used in the enemy movement phase. As per interceptor rules you may only "intercept" an aircraft at the end of your opponents movement phase. As such, there is no rule-abiding way to use the C&C in any turn other than in your own Shooting phase.

Interceptor wrote:At the end of the enemy Movement phase, a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from reserve...

Quite simply, the C&C node isn't a weapon, and isn't being fired. So it cannot be used with Interceptor.

rigeld2 wrote:
So GW doesn't write redundant rules?
That's what you're hinging your argument on, you do understand that right?

I'm hinging my argument on the idea that other rules that I know of that affect a model's shooting, which say 'in the shooting phase', are allowed to function on overwatch/interceptor. Then why not this wargear?

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
To use the C&C node you must elect not shoot in YOUR shooting phase. To elect not to do so must be done in the shooting phase of the owning player, by default making it only functional after your own shooting phase begins. Then the rule proceeds to state the effects last only until the end of the current phase. As such the benefits can not be used in the enemy movement phase. As per interceptor rules you may only "intercept" an aircraft at the end of your opponents movement phase. As such, there is no rule-abiding way to use the C&C in any turn other than in your own Shooting phase.

So my question is then, do you use the same logic of 'your shooting phase' to ensure that Monstrous Creatures only fire interceptor/overwatch with 1 weapon? And all Tau battlesuits with Markerlights can only intercept/overwatch with 1 weapon?

grendel083 wrote:
Quite simply, the C&C node isn't a weapon, and isn't being fired. So it cannot be used with Interceptor.

Funnily enough, the CNC node doesn't need to be 'fired'. In fact, it explicitly says 'if the model does not fire...',

Overwatch is an out-of-phase shooting phase for the unit. If the CNC did not have a restriction on it not functioning for OVerwatch, it would work then as well.

Interceptor just allows the weapon to be fired, it is not an out-of-phase Shooting phase.

Trasvi wrote:

grendel083 wrote:Quite simply, the C&C node isn't a weapon, and isn't being fired. So it cannot be used with Interceptor.

Funnily enough, the CNC node doesn't need to be 'fired'. In fact, it explicitly says 'if the model does not fire...',

No it doesn't need to be fired. But it does need to be used.
What allows you to use a piece of Wargear (that requires your Shooting Phase) to be used in the Enemy Movement Phase?
The Interceptor rule isn't allowing it, it's not a weapon being fired.
So what is allowing you to use this Wargear?

 Happyjew wrote:
Overwatch is an out-of-phase shooting phase for the unit. If the CNC did not have a restriction on it not functioning for OVerwatch, it would work then as well.

Interceptor just allows the weapon to be fired, it is not an out-of-phase Shooting phase.

If Overwatch is an out-of-phase shooting phase then why isn't the shooting done via an intercept weapon also an out-of-phase shooting phase?

Overwatch is a general rule granted to all models that interrupts the assault phase and grants a shooting phase to the target that just happens to also be called Overwatch.

Intercept is a specific rule granted to a weapon that allows it to interrupt the movement phase and grants a shooting phase to the model with those specific weapons, this particular phase doesn't have a name but is commonly called Intercept fire.

Give the model an EWO, and CNC/MSSS and a weapon. Something moves onto the field from reserves and the target is in range. He has weapons that can use the specific rule Intercept but may choose to instead apply his even more specific rule of CNC/MSSS and grants "re-roll misses" and "Ignores Cover". The general consensus at the moment is that this is not how it works, I am hoping that GW doesn't take too long to put out an updated FAQ that will answer this question definitively.

In regards to the Multi-tracker debate.

MCs have under their Shooting section "fire up to two of their weapons each Shooting phase."
Multi Trackers say "model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon in each Shooting phase."

Exact same wording. If you allow a MC to fire more than one weapon during Overwatch or Interceptor fire then you have to allow a model with a Multi-Tracker to fire more than one weapon during Overwatch or Interceptor fire.

A MC cannot fire 2 weaapons for Interceptor unless both weapons have the Interceptor special rule. If only 1weapon has it, only that weapon can be fired.

Actually, now that I read the rules closer pg 51 on 'More than one weapon' says that, if a model has more than one weapon he cannot use both in the same shooting phase (unless otherwise noted.
It does not say anything about assault or movement phases, therefore a model with more than one weapon can always fire all of them in the movement or assault phases.
So a battlesuit with 3 weapons and interceptor can fire all three of them on intercept, because it's not the shooting phase! this is awesome.

Trasvi wrote:
So a battlesuit with 3 weapons and interceptor can fire all three of them on intercept, because it's not the shooting phase! this is awesome.

And by the same logic can't use any of the rules found in the "Shooting Phase" section. So no wound allocation, or even rolls to hit.
If you want to fire a weapon, you need to be using all the rules for firing a weapon.

But again, in regards to trying to use the C&C node...

grendel083 wrote:No it doesn't need to be fired. But it does need to be used.
What allows you to use a piece of Wargear (that requires your Shooting Phase) to be used in the Enemy Movement Phase?
The Interceptor rule isn't allowing it, it's not a weapon being fired.
So what is allowing you to use this Wargear?

 grendel083 wrote:

But again, in regards to trying to use the C&C node...

grendel083 wrote:No it doesn't need to be fired. But it does need to be used.
What allows you to use a piece of Wargear (that requires your Shooting Phase) to be used in the Enemy Movement Phase?
The Interceptor rule isn't allowing it, it's not a weapon being fired.
So what is allowing you to use this Wargear?

My Crisis suit has a weapon that is in range of the target that came in from reserve, it also has an Early Warning Override and a CnC/MSSS. The EWO grants the ability to fire that weapon on Intercept but as per the option on the CnC and MSSS wargear I can opt to forgo firing to grant the relevant specials.

 Miri wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
No it doesn't need to be fired. But it does need to be used.
What allows you to use a piece of Wargear (that requires your Shooting Phase) to be used in the Enemy Movement Phase?
The Interceptor rule isn't allowing it, it's not a weapon being fired.
So what is allowing you to use this Wargear?

My Crisis suit has a weapon that is in range of the target that came in from reserve, it also has an Early Warning Override and a CnC/MSSS. The EWO grants the ability to fire that weapon on Intercept but as per the option on the CnC and MSSS wargear I can opt to forgo firing to grant the relevant specials.

That didn't answer the question.
Interceptor allows the firing of a weapon.
You're trying to use a piece of wargear in your opponents Movement Phase (which requires shooting phase).
The C&C node is not a weapon, so Interceptor isnot allowing it's use.
What rule is?

 grendel083 wrote:

 Miri wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
No it doesn't need to be fired. But it does need to be used.
What allows you to use a piece of Wargear (that requires your Shooting Phase) to be used in the Enemy Movement Phase?
The Interceptor rule isn't allowing it, it's not a weapon being fired.
So what is allowing you to use this Wargear?

My Crisis suit has a weapon that is in range of the target that came in from reserve, it also has an Early Warning Override and a CnC/MSSS. The EWO grants the ability to fire that weapon on Intercept but as per the option on the CnC and MSSS wargear I can opt to forgo firing to grant the relevant specials.

That didn't answer the question.
Interceptor allows the firing of a weapon.
You're trying to use a piece of wargear in your opponents Movement Phase (which requires shooting phase).
The C&C node is not a weapon, so Interceptor isnot allowing it's use.
What rule is?

The specific rule of the CnC node that says you can forgo shooting to use it instead.

Forgo shooting during the shooting phase.
Using the entire rule is important.

 Miri wrote:
The specific rule of the CnC node that says you can forgo shooting to use it instead.

In which Phase?

 grendel083 wrote:

 Miri wrote:
The specific rule of the CnC node that says you can forgo shooting to use it instead.

In which Phase?

The shooting phase created by the Intercept rule cause I'm not sure how else you would resolve a shooting attack if you don't have a shooting phase..

 grendel083 wrote:

 Miri wrote:
The specific rule of the CnC node that says you can forgo shooting to use it instead.

In which Phase?

Clearly as the rule states to forgo shooting in the shooting phase it must be foregone in the shooting phase. Meaning not in the enemy movement/assault phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Miri wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Miri wrote:
The specific rule of the CnC node that says you can forgo shooting to use it instead.

In which Phase?

The shooting phase created by the Intercept rule cause I'm not sure how else you would resolve a shooting attack if you don't have a shooting phase..

Intercept says to make an "out of sequence shooting attack" not "create a mini shooting phase"

 Miri wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Miri wrote:
The specific rule of the CnC node that says you can forgo shooting to use it instead.

In which Phase?

The shooting phase created by the Intercept rule cause I'm not sure how else you would resolve a shooting attack if you don't have a shooting phase..

The Interpector rule says Fire a Weapon. Naturally you'd use all relevent rules for firing a weapon, not the whole shooting phase.
Otherwise you chould declare a run move instead of shooting Interceptor.
Using a piece of wargear is not Firing a Weapon.

Guess we need to wait till next month when GW updates the Tau FAQ then.

Trasvi wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
A valid argument is...

Thankyou for the condescending tone, but I know quite a bit about formal logic. Perhaps I should have used the word 'unsound' or 'irrelevant'.

Sorry for the late return, but if you understand formal or informal logic, you should not make those mistakes. You should wince everytime you see them and you should undergo flagellation in repentance for making those mistakes.

Not really, but seriously. Bad Travisi. Bad.

 grendel083 wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
So a battlesuit with 3 weapons and interceptor can fire all three of them on intercept, because it's not the shooting phase! this is awesome.

And by the same logic can't use any of the rules found in the "Shooting Phase" section. So no wound allocation, or even rolls to hit.

Why do you think this is a parallel to the Shooting Phase section while the C&C node is not?

The rules on page 51 are no more an inherent part of the shooting action than the rules for a Command and Control Node, both appear well outside the basic set of steps for a shooting action, even if one is arguably more general than the other.

Why does one thing which specifies "in the shooting phase" apply at all other times but another thing doesn't?

It's one thing to accept the application of the basic shooting process referring to the shooting phase when it might fall beyond that scope, but you have to do much more than you have done to justify the inconsistency with which you are applying the use of the phrase "in the shooting phase" to rules external to that.