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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/20 23:35:54
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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so, after playing a few games, I found out that the black knights seem to die really easily. granted, I don't have a dark shroud, but so far they died to either bolter fire or massed splinter rifles. Any help?
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413th Lucius Exterminaton Legion- 4,000pts
Atalurnos Fleetbreaker's Akhelian Corps- 2500pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/20 23:37:56
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Executing Exarch
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Get a Darkshroud.
Failing that get a banner of fortitude.
Failing that field additional threats that the enemy has to deal with.
If you do number 3 right they won't even fire on your black knights.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/20 23:58:09
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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what constitues as bigger threats?
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413th Lucius Exterminaton Legion- 4,000pts
Atalurnos Fleetbreaker's Akhelian Corps- 2500pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 00:29:11
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Executing Exarch
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-Terminators dropping within 7" turn 1.
-Vindicator tank
-melta attack bikes or combat squad 2x melta bikes scouted forward to enemy postion
-Banner of devastation ravenwing command squad
-Run two black knight units
There are more if you want allies and I might of missed some.
Also don't forget to charge the enemy if they are good at shooting. You should only even get shot at turn 1 bar any accidental overkills (not counting overwatch). You can always hit and run out of combat the opponents assault phase so you can then shoot yourself.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 00:50:24
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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but what about surviving the combat?
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413th Lucius Exterminaton Legion- 4,000pts
Atalurnos Fleetbreaker's Akhelian Corps- 2500pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 02:18:04
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Executing Exarch
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What are you charging?
IG charge; the melee will be nothing compared to the shooting.
Termies; do not charge unless it is a single heavy weapon termie.
Normally you need to be a bully. I know it is tempting to shoot and charge the big TH/SS termie unit but consider going after the devastator squad that you can turbo boost to first turn. If you are playing Ravenwing then you should just ignore scary cc units and move out of charge range.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/21 02:23:28
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 03:14:53
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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Aright, thanks. So far, I only had 3 games with the black knights, so I might need to get more Exp. in. the battles I had them in so far...
1st game the 6 man knight unit radded a big gargoyle squad, where an LRC took it down quickly. They later survived waves of gaunts and went on to get me slay the warlord
2nd game the same unit radded two space wolf squads (they where close together) and I was dumb and didn't charge them. They ended up being maldictioned/boltered to death after 4 drop pods came in.
3rd game: outflanked on some eldar, took out a Reaver skimmer with four plasma shots, then took 20+ poison splinter rifles to the face, killing all but one and an interrigator chaplain
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413th Lucius Exterminaton Legion- 4,000pts
Atalurnos Fleetbreaker's Akhelian Corps- 2500pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 03:28:45
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Executing Exarch
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Yeah sounds like you used them pretty well in the first game and then forgot you could assault.
If you have a choice try to go after something you can charge and then hit and run out of unless the kill is strategically worth your black knights.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 08:02:08
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator
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Tiger9gamer wrote:so, after playing a few games, I found out that the black knights seem to die really easily. granted, I don't have a dark shroud, but so far they died to either bolter fire or massed splinter rifles. Any help?
A Darkshroud doesn't help against small arms fire.
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Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
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Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 08:34:53
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Executing Exarch
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How does taking saves on a 2+ versus a 3+ not help?
Though honestly that is only when turbo boosting.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 09:47:55
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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ansacs wrote:How does taking saves on a 2+ versus a 3+ not help?
Though honestly that is only when turbo boosting.
if they are turbo boosting they are not shooting plasma/rad. A 4++ cover and a 3++ are about the same, all it really means is crap ap volume of fire is going to get dumped into them. better off just buying a 2nd unit. Automatically Appended Next Post: ansacs wrote:-Terminators dropping within 7" turn 1.
-Vindicator tank
-melta attack bikes or combat squad 2x melta bikes scouted forward to enemy postion
-Banner of devastation ravenwing command squad
-Run two black knight units
There are more if you want allies and I might of missed some.
Also don't forget to charge the enemy if they are good at shooting. You should only even get shot at turn 1 bar any accidental overkills (not counting overwatch). You can always hit and run out of combat the opponents assault phase so you can then shoot yourself.
Top priority targets are the devastation banner 1st, then black knights/ravenwing command squads/same thing really.
Vindicators, DS termies, and regular bikes=problems, but no need to panic.
If the DA player starts a shooting phase with the dev banner and rad grenades to drop T you're going to have a bad day.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/21 09:56:41
Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 10:11:28
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant
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You are aware that they're toughness 5 right? I agree that the drop easily when over whelmed but mine usually shrug off bolter fire pretty easily.
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2000+ pts Dark Angels
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 10:20:10
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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Satan's Little Helper wrote:You are aware that they're toughness 5 right? I agree that the drop easily when over whelmed but mine usually shrug off bolter fire pretty easily.
They faster than terminators to bolter fire and cost about the same.
They cost the same as 3 tac marines and the 3 tac marines can take av average of 18 bolter hits to drop compared to 9 bolter hits for a black knight.
Bolters ac ml testla of all shapes/sizes anything that does wounds at range=good to dump in them. They are a wellbalanced unit that is fragile when you consider their cost.
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Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 10:32:29
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Newbie Black Templar Neophyte
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Knights work if you roll a good BALANCED DA list. If you RW, I'd run 'em as a finisher move, not a first in. They shine more that way, and survive more.
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Laziness is no excuse.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 15:21:35
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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Sirmauz wrote:Knights work if you roll a good BALANCED DA list. If you RW, I'd run 'em as a finisher move, not a first in. They shine more that way, and survive more.
oh, that makes sense more. So to counter the squishy-ness of them to bolter fire, I should let them hang back to avoid getting shot at, then drive them like a spear tip into the enemy? and would outflankinghelp, or does that just cause more problems?
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413th Lucius Exterminaton Legion- 4,000pts
Atalurnos Fleetbreaker's Akhelian Corps- 2500pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 15:58:45
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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We have two DA players at our FLGS. Both of them tried raven wing right away when the codex came out. The first got sick of them after about a month and went back to deathwing. The other punished himself until just last week when he finally gave up on them.
Yes, they're too squishy. In the end, you're just not bringing enough models with a 3+ armor save. The one advantage you get is with speed, but you could just take teleporting shoot-while-arriving dudes with a 2+ armor save and the ability to take 3++ shields in front.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 16:38:45
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
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Really? I've had the opposite experience, with Raven Wing doing very well, followed closely by LRC and Dev banner spam. Death Wing has been getting tabled almost every single game. Which is a shame, since every time I see the models I want to buy them, but they just seem so...bad.
Whereas raven wing puts out brutal damage.
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Star Trek taught me so much. Like, how you should accept people, whether they be black, white, Klingon or even female...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 18:09:01
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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The problem is that a 3+ armor save and a 5++ cover save aren't as good as a 2+ armor save and a 5++ invul save. You can spend more points to upgrade the ravenwing's durability, but then you could just spend more points on more terminators (or just buy storm shields).
Plus, there's the firepower deficit as well. Twin-linked bolters aren't as good as storm bolters. Chainswords and crow hammers aren't as good as power fists and thunderhammers. Termies also get cyclones and assault cannons, and they use them twin-linked on the turn they arrive, and can split fire, none of which is true for the bikes.
Then you add on those few little humiliating things, like crashing your bikes in difficult terrain, and being unable to reach objectives up in ruins.
Don't get me wrong, bike armies are pretty cool, but bikes, in the end, are really just a variation on assault marines. Fast, but not much killier, and not much more durable for being a fair bit more expensive.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 18:19:51
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
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In the case of black knights it's 4++, and if Sammeal joins a unit that's also 4++. Not to mention that they're T5 which drastically increases their resilience to small arms. They're about as resilient to small arms as terminators. Also when the darkshroud is around the coversave can't be drowned in small arms until it fails the armour save like the SS can.
Relentless Salvo 4 TL bolters are better than storm bolters. The RWCS can quite comfortably pass the banner buff to 2-4 units in one turn. They can forego their own shooting in order to flat out and get different units in range of the bannner.
While RW is obviously less good in assault they also have hit & run, meaning that's less of an issue. Also they can't be bogged down like the terminators. Just as CML and Assault cannons are good, plasma talons are good too. The ability to grab objectives on the other side of the table late game is absolutely fantastic, something that the terminators don't have a chance with.
Then you add on those few little humiliating things, like crashing your bikes in difficult terrain, and being unable to reach objectives up in ruins.
This is quite true, I always slap an objective on the 1st floor of a ruin against RW. I do however think you're underestimating them though.
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Star Trek taught me so much. Like, how you should accept people, whether they be black, white, Klingon or even female...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 18:29:19
Subject: Re:DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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I'm not sure about knights, but regular Ravenwing squads are brutal in objective missions. Seven model squad can be divided into three, fast moving, scoring units. Yes, individual units are easy to kill, but you're forced to divide your fire. Also, combined with dakka banner, they can shoot a lot. LR crusader with the banner inside and a lot of bikes is a nasty combination.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 18:43:07
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Griddlelol wrote:In the case of black knights it's 4++, and if Sammeal joins a unit that's also 4++. Not to mention that they're T5 which drastically increases their resilience to small arms. They're about as resilient to small arms as terminators. Also when the darkshroud is around the coversave can't be drowned in small arms until it fails the armour save like the SS can.
T5 Sv3 dies to a boltgun hit on a .11, while T4 Sv2 dies on a .08. Terminators are still better. Meanwhile, cover saves are ignorable (say hello to the bale flamer), and is only 4+ compared to 3++, and the terminators can get upgraded with FNP, which makes them much better against small arms fire to boot.
Griddlelol wrote: The ability to grab objectives on the other side of the table late game is absolutely fantastic, something that the terminators don't have a chance with.
They are more mobile, yes, but they're less useful for claiming objectives if they're dead, or run off the table at high speeds. Plus, you can always just drop terminators straight onto objectives and then hold them. Not as good as being able to do cross-board pounces, sure, but not THAT much worse.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 19:11:01
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
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The baleflamer is a horrible weakness for RW. I'm not going to contest that. As is the colossus and markerlight riptide.
Everything you've said makes perfect sense, but there's still this nagging feeling at the back of my head that I struggle with RW lists, but DW lists are a cakewalk for me to deal with. I can't quantify it easily. It's the same for TDA GK too. Something about slow moving, 2+ armour that is just not that good. Maybe because so much of my list brings ap2 or better weapons, or maybe because I see bike armies (RW is the only one I play against) so rarely.
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Star Trek taught me so much. Like, how you should accept people, whether they be black, white, Klingon or even female...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 19:20:16
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Ailaros wrote:
T5 Sv3 dies to a boltgun hit on a .11, while T4 Sv2 dies on a .08.
That's a silly comparison; terminators also cost about 60% more than a biker.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 19:28:59
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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60% more expensive, but 40% more durable before you add FNP and storm shields.
Griddelol, I think you're seeing with ravenwing something elusive that I've been struggling to explain with my hellhound guard army. There is some X factor to fast units that I haven't quite pinned down yet that does make it more difficult to figure out what to do in the movement phase against them, while fighting against deepstriking terminators is certainly more straightforward.
I think what sort of tips it, though, is that deathwing are elites that count as troops that count as fast attack. The fact that they arrive anywhere on the board turn 1, possibly without scattering (in a mixed list), and then unload two turns worth of killing power before your opponent gets to react really mitigates the drawbacks of not being able to turboboost.
That said, I will grant that, due to my very nebulous understanding of how speed actually helps a player in this game outside of concentration of killing power, that there might be some sort of secret sauce that makes up for the differences... somehow.
Not in the hands of a player that can really make the most of this mysterious force, though, ravenwing just does less damage and sees its units die faster than the much harder and slightly killier terminators.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 19:44:16
Subject: Re:DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Kovnik
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How many Knights do you put into one squad? I got 3 and they always seem to die to overwatch fire...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 20:10:57
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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I've been running 4 due to points limitations. Since I play DW I expect them to die, they're there for the teleport homer and turn 2 overwatch fodder. The fact they're half decent in melee as well as shooting means that people have a choice between shooting the termi's or black knights although I've not had a game yet where I want to keep them alive for much longer.
It's nice when they stay alive longer, but I don't expect it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 22:46:08
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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I'm planning on running a 6 man squad with maybe 2 Grenade launchers.
I'm not taking Alison's stuff to heart, though. Half of it is because I'm buying lots of RW and don't want to feel my purchases are always going to waste, and the other half is that his explanations don't make sense to someone stupid like me.
and what do you mean about FNP? it's not Terminator exclusive
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413th Lucius Exterminaton Legion- 4,000pts
Atalurnos Fleetbreaker's Akhelian Corps- 2500pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 22:52:17
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I can't speak for all of what Ailaros is saying, but one point that might not have come across is that having a Darkshroud is no benefit to the Black Knights against small arms fire. Even with a Darkshroud the Knight's 3+ armor save is going to be better than their cover save, unless they're turbo boosting.
In most cases when your Black Knights are within small arms range for the enemy, you are in Talon/charge range yourself so you won't be turbo boosting to get all the way down to the 2+ cover save.
They've worked best for me in a line breaker role against gun or mech lines and as mop up against MSU armies, but in most cases they don't live through the game.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 22:53:23
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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You *could* spend 205 points giving FNP to a lot of T5 things. You could also spend 185 giving those T5 things 4 times the damage output at 24".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/21 22:54:00
Subject: DA Black Knights too squishy?
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Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight
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Griddlelol wrote:
Then you add on those few little humiliating things, like crashing your bikes in difficult terrain, and being unable to reach objectives up in ruins.
This is quite true, I always slap an objective on the 1st floor of a ruin against RW. I do however think you're underestimating them though.
Actually, Black Knights have skilled rider which makes them auto-pass dangerous terrain. It might be beneficial to sneak these guys through more terrain heavy sections of the table.
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