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 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Chrysis wrote:

So a unit of Servitors without a Techmarine will still take up a slot, if the logic being applied to Heralds holds true.

No, because the troops entry in the back of the book makes clear that servitors are an unclassed type. Since they don't have a troop class(HQ, Fast Attack, etc), you don't have permission to buy them at all, unless one of your other legal rules or units makes it possible.

Heralds, on the other hand, are valid, listed HQ choices.

However, if this was my opponent's primary argument for the Herald's debate, I'd allow them to take a servitor as their HQ choice just to not have to debate something so silly.

According to The DA codex, Servitors are an HQ choice (thus unlocking another Techmarine and Command Squad).

 Happyjew wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Chrysis wrote:

So a unit of Servitors without a Techmarine will still take up a slot, if the logic being applied to Heralds holds true.

No, because the troops entry in the back of the book makes clear that servitors are an unclassed type. Since they don't have a troop class(HQ, Fast Attack, etc), you don't have permission to buy them at all, unless one of your other legal rules or units makes it possible.

Heralds, on the other hand, are valid, listed HQ choices.

However, if this was my opponent's primary argument for the Herald's debate, I'd allow them to take a servitor as their HQ choice just to not have to debate something so silly.

According to The DA codex, Servitors are an HQ choice (thus unlocking another Techmarine and Command Squad).

No they aren't. I'm looking at it right now. While it's listed in the HQ section, that specific listing, in it's own box clearly states that they do not take up an FoC slot, and that 1 unit of said "Unclassed" troop type may be taken for every Techmarine in the army. It doesn't say it unlocks techmarines. Read it again. DA Codex Page 94.

Because the listing for them specifically says they don't take up an FoC slot, we don't have permission to purchase them at all. When purchasing units for our army, we may only purchase HQs, Troops, Elites, Heavy Supports, Fast Attacks, and Fortifications, unless a special rule for a legal unit or army codex gives us permission to do otherwise. Since servitors don't fill one of those slots, you never have permission to take them unless something else gives you explicit permission to do so, making a purchase outside the structure of the FoC.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
No they aren't. I'm looking at it right now. While it's listed in the HQ section, that specific listing, in it's own box clearly states that they do not take up an FoC slot, and that 1 unit of said "Unclassed" troop type may be taken for every Techmarine in the army. It doesn't say it unlocks techmarines. Read it again. DA Codex Page 94.

This.

The Servitors (and most other options in the DA HQ section) are specifically limited by their entry in the codex. The individual Heralds in the Daemons codex are not.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Chrysis wrote:

So a unit of Servitors without a Techmarine will still take up a slot, if the logic being applied to Heralds holds true.

No, because the troops entry in the back of the book makes clear that servitors are an unclassed type. Since they don't have a troop class(HQ, Fast Attack, etc), you don't have permission to buy them at all, unless one of your other legal rules or units makes it possible.

Heralds, on the other hand, are valid, listed HQ choices.

However, if this was my opponent's primary argument for the Herald's debate, I'd allow them to take a servitor as their HQ choice just to not have to debate something so silly.

According to The DA codex, Servitors are an HQ choice (thus unlocking another Techmarine and Command Squad).

No they aren't. I'm looking at it right now. While it's listed in the HQ section, that specific listing, in it's own box clearly states that they do not take up an FoC slot, and that 1 unit of said "Unclassed" troop type may be taken for every Techmarine in the army. It doesn't say it unlocks techmarines. Read it again. DA Codex Page 94.

I don't know what codex you're looking at, but the one I'm looking at says nothing about them not being HQ. They're on an HQ page, they aren't in a box out like the Command Squads, and they appear in the summary as an HQ model. They are unequivocally an HQ choice. Now, they have a rule that says "For each Techmarine you may include 1 unit of servitors. Such a selection does not take up a FOC slot", but that is no different to the Heralds, which have a rule governing all the Heralds that does a similar thing if it's a Primary Detachment. People are saying that if it's not a Primary Detachment the Herald rules don't apply, so by extension if there isn't a Techmarine in the army the Servitor rule doesn't apply and a unit of Servitors will take up an HQ slot like normal.

Apples and oranges, again

One is permission to alter the normal rules for selecting HQ choices, but only in a primary detachment

Thus it is permission to do something you are not allowed to do normally

Servitors have a restriction which states you may only take them if you take a techmarine.

It's Apples to Apples.

One has a rule that says if you have a techmarine you may take a unit of servitors. If you do so, they do not take up a FOC slot.

The other has a rule that says if you are a Primary Detachment you may take up to 4 Heralds. If you do so, they collectively take up a single FOC slot.

If the first is a restriction, then so is the second. If the second isn't a restriction, then neither is the first.

Chrysis wrote:
It's Apples to Apples.

One has a rule that says if you have a techmarine you may take a unit of servitors. If you do so, they do not take up a FOC slot.

The other has a rule that says if you are a Primary Detachment you may take up to 4 Heralds. If you do so, they collectively take up a single FOC slot.

If the first is a restriction, then so is the second. If the second isn't a restriction, then neither is the first.

Both are not restrictions. You are correct here.

So these are the restrictions:
If you do NOT take a Techmarine, you may NOT take a unit of Servitors. This is correct.
If you do NOT take a Primary Detachment [of Codex: Chaos Daemons], you may NOT field up to 4 Heralds in a single FOC slot. This is also correct.

What you are trying to imply:
If you do NOT take a Primary Detachment [of Codex: Chaos Daemons], you may NOT field Heralds*. This is NOT correct.

* Or more specifically, you may not field: Skulltaker, Karanak, Herald of Khorne, The Changeling, Herald of Tzeentch, Epidemius, Herald of Nurgle or Herald of Slaanesh.

Chrysis - I see the issue, you are trying to make an excluded middle fallacy.

Dont. Just because you are allowed to take a non-FOC occupying unit if you take a unit (TM) does not mean NOT using a primary detachment of Daemons means you areunable to take ANY heralds

Heralds occupy a slot on the FOC, prove you are not able to take them. Page and graph.