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I have a question about Blast weapons and ranges that I'm not sure about...

Suppose I have a model firing a Blast weapon at some target A, and it scatters and hits target infantry unit B which is outside the max range of the weapon. While the Blast may hit and wound B, since all of the models are outside max range, no wounds can be allocated because the allocation follows normal shooting rules (p33) and you can't allocate to models out of range (p16).

Now what if unit B is a vehicle? Do the Out of Range and Out of Sight rules apply (which are written in the context of Wound Allocation)?

Read up on blast weapons, it says that if it scatters out of the weapon range or out of line of sight it functions as normal.
Meaning: if it scatters out of range it still hit, wound and kill.

I dunno if the out of LOS vehicle get a cover save however, but the rules for blast weapons says this is not a problem and still hit.

Per the rules a blast that scatters out of sight/range can still hit and wound units. However, wounds are still allocated as normal. This means if the unit that is hit is completely out of sight (for example) then no models in the unit can be wounded.

 Happyjew wrote:
Per the rules a blast that scatters out of sight/range can still hit and wound units. However, wounds are still allocated as normal. This means if the unit that is hit is completely out of sight (for example) then no models in the unit can be wounded.

How about the strange new FAQ though, it seems that blasts can now wound AND kill out of line of sight

Page 33 – Blast & Large Blast, Line of Sight
Add to the end of the final paragraph:“Remember to keep the
wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule in their
own wound pool, and that wounds from this pool can be
allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out
of sight of any models from the attacking unit”.

 Happyjew wrote:
Per the rules a blast that scatters out of sight/range can still hit and wound units. However, wounds are still allocated as normal. This means if the unit that is hit is completely out of sight (for example) then no models in the unit can be wounded.

Newest Errata updates include this;

Page 33 – Blast & Large Blast, Line of Sight

Add to the end of the final paragraph: “Remember to keep the wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule in their own wound pool, and that wounds from this pool can be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit”.

(I bolded the relevant portion) So does this mean that if the blast scatters out of sight, hits and wounds, those wounds can now be allocated to models out of sight, despite the arguments made against this recently? I believe so. However, it also says "the target unit" .. if the unit the blast hits is NOT the target unit, can you allocate wounds to it, or do you take those wounds and allocate them TO the target unit and not the separate unit it hit? Or are those wounds then lost?

I love when erratas bring about more questions!

Amusingly this errata didn't actually change anything. It does make it clearer that if you scatter on to a different unit out of LoS you get nothing.

rigeld2 wrote:
Amusingly this errata didn't actually change anything. It does make it clearer that if you scatter on to a different unit out of LoS you get nothing.

I do not see what you mean by that.
I believe you are ignoring the rest of the Blast & Large Blast rules in the BRB.

Edit: Not ignoring... forgetting is a better term.

Rorschach9 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Per the rules a blast that scatters out of sight/range can still hit and wound units. However, wounds are still allocated as normal. This means if the unit that is hit is completely out of sight (for example) then no models in the unit can be wounded.

Newest Errata updates include this;

Page 33 – Blast & Large Blast, Line of Sight

Add to the end of the final paragraph: “Remember to keep the wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule in their own wound pool, and that wounds from this pool can be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit”.

(I bolded the relevant portion) So does this mean that if the blast scatters out of sight, hits and wounds, those wounds can now be allocated to models out of sight, despite the arguments made against this recently? I believe so. However, it also says "the target unit" .. if the unit the blast hits is NOT the target unit, can you allocate wounds to it, or do you take those wounds and allocate them TO the target unit and not the separate unit it hit? Or are those wounds then lost?

I love when erratas bring about more questions!

Units hit by blast markers are considered the target unit. Let's not make things more complicated than what they are. It works that way for all area effect weapons, if a unit is hit it is considered a targeted unit.

It's the same for those "straight line" weapons, Nova weapons, etc, etc.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Amusingly this errata didn't actually change anything. It does make it clearer that if you scatter on to a different unit out of LoS you get nothing.

I do not see what you mean by that.
I believe you are ignoring the rest of the Blast & Large Blast rules in the BRB.

Edit: Not ignoring... forgetting is a better term.

Nope. Read the B&LB rules. You can wound units out of LoS but there's no permission to allocate.
The errata backs that interpretation up as you're only targeting the unit you initially placed the marker over, not the unit it scattered to.
Didn't change anything.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Amusingly this errata didn't actually change anything. It does make it clearer that if you scatter on to a different unit out of LoS you get nothing.

I do not see what you mean by that.
I believe you are ignoring the rest of the Blast & Large Blast rules in the BRB.

Edit: Not ignoring... forgetting is a better term.

I am shocked, SHOCKED, that someone might be construed as ignoring clearly written rules, or obvious intent, in order to sustain their prior position as being correct.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Amusingly this errata didn't actually change anything. It does make it clearer that if you scatter on to a different unit out of LoS you get nothing.

I do not see what you mean by that.
I believe you are ignoring the rest of the Blast & Large Blast rules in the BRB.

Edit: Not ignoring... forgetting is a better term.

Nope. Read the B&LB rules. You can wound units out of LoS but there's no permission to allocate.
The errata backs that interpretation up as you're only targeting the unit you initially placed the marker over, not the unit it scattered to.
Didn't change anything.

What about this part of the rules?

"Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out, roll To Wound and save as normal. Any unsaved wounds are then allocated on the unit as for a normal shooting attack."

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Amusingly this errata didn't actually change anything. It does make it clearer that if you scatter on to a different unit out of LoS you get nothing.

I do not see what you mean by that.
I believe you are ignoring the rest of the Blast & Large Blast rules in the BRB.

Edit: Not ignoring... forgetting is a better term.

Nope. Read the B&LB rules. You can wound units out of LoS but there's no permission to allocate.
The errata backs that interpretation up as you're only targeting the unit you initially placed the marker over, not the unit it scattered to.
Didn't change anything.

According to this interpretation, you can only ever allocate to the unit that you declared as a target. So no more wounding more than one unit with a template, jaws, nova, etc, etc, You then never have to worry about scattering onto your own units. This is obviously incorrect.


Units hit by area effect weapons are considered the target unit.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Amusingly this errata didn't actually change anything. It does make it clearer that if you scatter on to a different unit out of LoS you get nothing.

I do not see what you mean by that.
I believe you are ignoring the rest of the Blast & Large Blast rules in the BRB.

Edit: Not ignoring... forgetting is a better term.

Nope. Read the B&LB rules. You can wound units out of LoS but there's no permission to allocate.
The errata backs that interpretation up as you're only targeting the unit you initially placed the marker over, not the unit it scattered to.
Didn't change anything.

What about this part of the rules?

"Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out, roll To Wound and save as normal. Any unsaved wounds are then allocated on the unit as for a normal shooting attack."

And what's normal for a unit with no models in line of sight? Is there anything that lifts the restriction set by Out of Sight?

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Amusingly this errata didn't actually change anything. It does make it clearer that if you scatter on to a different unit out of LoS you get nothing.

I do not see what you mean by that.
I believe you are ignoring the rest of the Blast & Large Blast rules in the BRB.

Edit: Not ignoring... forgetting is a better term.

Nope. Read the B&LB rules. You can wound units out of LoS but there's no permission to allocate.
The errata backs that interpretation up as you're only targeting the unit you initially placed the marker over, not the unit it scattered to.
Didn't change anything.

What about this part of the rules?

"Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out, roll To Wound and save as normal. Any unsaved wounds are then allocated on the unit as for a normal shooting attack."

And what's normal for a unit with no models in line of sight? Is there anything that lifts the restriction set by Out of Sight?

You mean other than the FAQ that was just released?

40k-noob wrote:
You mean other than the FAQ that was just released?

The FAQ that refers to the target unit?
How many units do you target when shooting?

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
You mean other than the FAQ that was just released?

The FAQ that refers to the target unit?
How many units do you target when shooting?

Just one and place the Marker over a model in the unit. But again, I think you are overlooking the rest of the rules for B&LB.

The rules allow for units other than the initial target to be hit/wounded by the B&LB when it scatters.
The third and fourth para address scatter, out of range and LOS and say it is perfectly fine and can hit/wound these units.

And there's no permission to allocate - and the last paragraph (including the errata) reference the target unit.

Nothing in the B&LB rules overrides Out of Sight. This isn't new.

rigeld2 wrote:
And there's no permission to allocate - and the last paragraph (including the errata) reference the target unit.

Nothing in the B&LB rules overrides Out of Sight. This isn't new.

So then you DO feel that ONLY the "target" unit can be hit/wounded by blasts?

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
And there's no permission to allocate - and the last paragraph (including the errata) reference the target unit.

Nothing in the B&LB rules overrides Out of Sight. This isn't new.

So then you DO feel that ONLY the "target" unit can be hit/wounded by blasts?

That appears to be the case, therefor breaking all other shooting conventions as well.

This is one of those cases where you have to consider being right and correct enough of a victory. Getting someone to admit that they were wrong will just not happen.

If you really want to prove your point, just ask how a barrage weapon can allocate to units that are "Out of Sight" . Nothing in the barrage rules overrides Out of Sight either. Then sit back and watch the rhetorical Jiu Jitsu with their own logic.

I think you can clearly see they mean for out of sight models to be hit/killed by blasts or else they would have worded the errata to state - Blasts do not affect models out of line of sight.

Instead they give a poorly worded errata that still lets people have some doubt about what is going on.

 Mythra wrote:
I think you can clearly see they mean for out of sight models to be hit/killed by blasts or else they would have worded the errata to state - Blasts do not affect models out of line of sight.

Instead they give a poorly worded errata that still lets people have some doubt about what is going on.

What?

They have clear rules that allow you to hit and wound units that are out of line of sight. They now have clear rules that allow you to allocate wounds to models that are out of line of sight. I truly do not see where any confusion could be found.

SInce the rule clearly states that models that are out of line of sight can have wounds allocated to them, this overides the portion of allocation that requires line of sight. You then begin applying the wounds to the model that is closest to the firing unit. Done.

 Idolator wrote:
They have clear rules that allow you to hit and wound units that are out of line of sight.

Correct.

They now have clear rules that allow you to allocate wounds to models that are out of line of sight. I truly do not see where any confusion could be found.

Only for the target unit. For example I have a Devastator squad. One has a missile launcher. I fire a frag missile at a group of Termagants and scatters into a unit of Hormagaunts. Which is the target unit? Why?

See still unclear. I think they meant it to hit any unit not just target unit.



I mean why does the target unit get hurt but anything next to it is magically invulnerable.


RAW Other units don't take the wounds only the target unit. RAI I think they meant blasts to hurt any out sight model/unit.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Idolator wrote:
They have clear rules that allow you to hit and wound units that are out of line of sight.

Correct.

They now have clear rules that allow you to allocate wounds to models that are out of line of sight. I truly do not see where any confusion could be found.

Only for the target unit. For example I have a Devastator squad. One has a missile launcher. I fire a frag missile at a group of Termagants and scatters into a unit of Hormagaunts. Which is the target unit? Why?

Last two paragraphs of the blast &large blast rules on page 33. No mention of the term target unit. simple.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
And there's no permission to allocate - and the last paragraph (including the errata) reference the target unit.

Nothing in the B&LB rules overrides Out of Sight. This isn't new.

So then you DO feel that ONLY the "target" unit can be hit/wounded by blasts?

No. You're conflating hits/wounds/allocated wounds. The shooting rules don't do that and neither should you.

A blast weapon can generate hits on a unit out of LoS that it scatters onto.
It can generate wounds and populate a wound pool.
It cannot allocate wounds as there are no models in Line of Sight and therefore you empty the wound pool.

 Idolator wrote:

If you really want to prove your point, just ask how a barrage weapon can allocate to units that are "Out of Sight" . Nothing in the barrage rules overrides Out of Sight either. Then sit back and watch the rhetorical Jiu Jitsu with their own logic.

Easy, the barrage rules don't exempt barrage weapons from out of sight. They do however change the frame of reference, for cover saves and wound allocation, to the center of the blast maker instead of the firing model, thus allowing a barrage weapon to fire indirectly.

 Idolator wrote:
Last two paragraphs of the blast &large blast rules on page 33. No mention of the term target unit. simple.

Re-read the errata. You're 100% incorrect.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
And there's no permission to allocate - and the last paragraph (including the errata) reference the target unit.

Nothing in the B&LB rules overrides Out of Sight. This isn't new.

So then you DO feel that ONLY the "target" unit can be hit/wounded by blasts?

No. You're conflating hits/wounds/allocated wounds. The shooting rules don't do that and neither should you.

A blast weapon can generate hits on a unit out of LoS that it scatters onto.
It can generate wounds and populate a wound pool.
It cannot allocate wounds as there are no models in Line of Sight and therefore you empty the wound pool.

That is true only if you ignore the fact that you are specificaly allowed to allocate wounds to models that are out of sight.

Page 33 – Blast & Large Blast, Line of Sight
Add to the end of the final paragraph: “Remember to keep the
wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule in their
own wound pool, and that wounds from this pool can be
allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out
of sight of any models from the attacking unit”.

 Idolator wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
And there's no permission to allocate - and the last paragraph (including the errata) reference the target unit.

Nothing in the B&LB rules overrides Out of Sight. This isn't new.

So then you DO feel that ONLY the "target" unit can be hit/wounded by blasts?

No. You're conflating hits/wounds/allocated wounds. The shooting rules don't do that and neither should you.

A blast weapon can generate hits on a unit out of LoS that it scatters onto.
It can generate wounds and populate a wound pool.
It cannot allocate wounds as there are no models in Line of Sight and therefore you empty the wound pool.

That is true only if you ignore the fact that you are specificaly allowed to allocate wounds to models that are out of sight.

Page 33 – Blast & Large Blast, Line of Sight
Add to the end of the final paragraph: “Remember to keep the
wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule in their
own wound pool, and that wounds from this pool can be
allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out
of sight of any models from the attacking unit”.

I highlighted the part you seem to be missing.

 Idolator wrote:

That is true only if you ignore the fact that you are specificaly allowed to allocate wounds to models that are out of sight.

Page 33 – Blast & Large Blast, Line of Sight
Add to the end of the final paragraph: “Remember to keep the
wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule in their
own wound pool, and that wounds from this pool can be
allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out
of sight of any models from the attacking unit”.

I bolded the phrase you keep missing.
How many targets do you have in a shooting phase?