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I know the answer to this question depends on a ton of things - the consistency of the particular color, how much coverage you want, whether you're layering, and your personal requirements for quality and corresponding patience for numerous coats. I get it. Still, I'm trying to learn to paint smoother and a ballpark estimate from other VGC users would be helpful to understand how far I should push it. I suspect I need to push a lot further than I have been to get the results I want.

So let's assume we're laying down a basecoat and then try to keep the other parameters as middle-of-the-road as possible - median consistency for VGC, a color with reasonable coverage (no yellows, metallics, etc.), a compatible primer color, and a goal of producing a good but not showcase quality result. What ratio do you take as a baseline?

For a basecoat, just put enough that there would be no brush strokes and it will not cover up detail but the paint would still be solid when applied. Again, depends on the color in question. Usually with mine just wetting the tip of the brush is enough, as long as the paint applies flat. That goes for both tabletop quality and showcase quality work.

Sadly, ballparking how much water you need is more of due to experience and trial and error than actual measurement ratio on my part.

I usually go 1:1 with windex. YES WINDEX!!!

DO NOT USE WATER!!! Water breaks down the paint and doesnt flow well. This can often lead to streaking and inconsitant paint flow.

Hope this helps.

Huh? I've been using "just" water and it's doing well. I don't think tossing around advice like "don't use water!!!" helps anyone, really. Water is fine for thinning paint.

If you are planning on using an airbrush make sure it's ammonia free Windex or you might have bad surprise after a while.

1:1:1 Flow-water (10:1 Water to Flow Aid), matte medium, VGC. That's where I start, then adjust as necessary to get a consistency I like.

To be honest enough so it doesn't clog... now going by what type of AB you are using PSI ect all depends really.. for game color Its a bit RNG but prob 1 - 3? ratio or something I do it watery.

I was only asking in the context of brush painting, not airbrushing. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Thanks for throwing some numbers out there. I was experimenting a bit last night on some plasticard scraps and came to similar conclusions - around 1:1 is a reasonable baseline ratio for basecoating. In my case, I was using some of the thinner colors (Beasty Brown and Charred Brown mix), so 2 paint to 1 water was more sensible. But 1:1 should be about right for the typical VGCs. That will still take several coats for a good, solid color in most cases, but it's not the kind of crazy 8+ coats you sometimes hear about in high-end showcase pieces.

I really do wish veteran painters could be less cagey about thinning ratios. I know they depend on a lot of factors and that you don't just follow someone else's thoughtlessly. But there's a happy medium between blindly copying someone else and having to take wild ass guesses because everyone just says "it's all experience" and "thin like milk". I had been painting at 4:1 paint:water for a while and would've gotten better results and learned better technique in the first place with a bit more knowledge.

Matney - I'm curious about your inclusion of matte medium in your thinning mix. If I understand paint composition correctly (which I may not), matte medium is basically the paint minus the pigment. So adding matte medium would effectively dilute your pigmentation without changing the consistency of the paint. Is that what you're looking for? I guess it's effectively making the paint more translucent by decreasing the relative pigmentation rather than thinning the paint's body to let it spread more and getting transparency that way. So you'd be getting a slightly thicker physical coat of paint in return for transparency comparable to thinner paint but with slightly better control. Is that right?

Also, do people find there's a limit to how far they can thin VGC with straight water? This is a VGC criticism I've seen in a few places. In my limited testing with paints thinned further for layering, it does seem like the paint starts acting funny once you get beyond about 2-3 water to 1 paint (depending on the color). At that point, it separates almost instantly in the pallette, requiring a good remixing each time I reload the brush. I'd think pigment application on the model would get uneven as well at that point, even if it's hard to see it clearly. I included some flow improver and extender in my last supply order and look forward to seeing if that helps highly thinned VGC.

I use a wet pallet, and I find that is allows just enough water to thin it nicely for brush work.

tppytel wrote:
I really do wish veteran painters could be less cagey about thinning ratios. I know they depend on a lot of factors and that you don't just follow someone else's thoughtlessly. But there's a happy medium between blindly copying someone else and having to take wild ass guesses because everyone just says "it's all experience" and "thin like milk". I had been painting at 4:1 paint:water for a while and would've gotten better results and learned better technique in the first place with a bit more knowledge.

I know it's a frustrating topic to research, but no one is trying to be obtuse. The fact that so many veteran painters recommend simply playing around with thinning is that personal experimentation really is the only way to develop the proper feel for it. Honestly - and I do hope this doesn't sound too accusatory, as it's a common enough problem to warrant addressing more generally - ten minutes, a scrap of primed plastic, and a few drops of paint (plus water and brush, obviously) is all it takes to start filling in the blanks. There's little difference between guessing 4:1 or hearing 1:1, should you find the result unsatisfactory - in either case, you see what was wrong and compensate.

There's also the fact that some painters (like me) sometimes just wet the brush and get how much paint I want. That's really hard to estimate especially if someone does it instinctively. It's like instructing someone to learn how to bike: you can't say anything aside from "just try to balance yourself while moving".

I started adding matte medium to my washes, first, and liked how it affected the consistency. Now I just add it to everything. Vallejo's pigments are concentrated enough that I don't notice any transparency.

tppytel wrote:
I was only asking in the context of brush painting, not airbrushing. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Thanks for throwing some numbers out there. I was experimenting a bit last night on some plasticard scraps and came to similar conclusions - around 1:1 is a reasonable baseline ratio for basecoating. In my case, I was using some of the thinner colors (Beasty Brown and Charred Brown mix), so 2 paint to 1 water was more sensible. But 1:1 should be about right for the typical VGCs. That will still take several coats for a good, solid color in most cases, but it's not the kind of crazy 8+ coats you sometimes hear about in high-end showcase pieces.

I really do wish veteran painters could be less cagey about thinning ratios. I know they depend on a lot of factors and that you don't just follow someone else's thoughtlessly. But there's a happy medium between blindly copying someone else and having to take wild ass guesses because everyone just says "it's all experience" and "thin like milk". I had been painting at 4:1 paint:water for a while and would've gotten better results and learned better technique in the first place with a bit more knowledge.

Matney - I'm curious about your inclusion of matte medium in your thinning mix. If I understand paint composition correctly (which I may not), matte medium is basically the paint minus the pigment. So adding matte medium would effectively dilute your pigmentation without changing the consistency of the paint. Is that what you're looking for? I guess it's effectively making the paint more translucent by decreasing the relative pigmentation rather than thinning the paint's body to let it spread more and getting transparency that way. So you'd be getting a slightly thicker physical coat of paint in return for transparency comparable to thinner paint but with slightly better control. Is that right?


Also, do people find there's a limit to how far they can thin VGC with straight water? This is a VGC criticism I've seen in a few places. In my limited testing with paints thinned further for layering, it does seem like the paint starts acting funny once you get beyond about 2-3 water to 1 paint (depending on the color). At that point, it separates almost instantly in the pallette, requiring a good remixing each time I reload the brush. I'd think pigment application on the model would get uneven as well at that point, even if it's hard to see it clearly. I included some flow improver and extender in my last supply order and look forward to seeing if that helps highly thinned VGC.

O brush painting my bad. Either way... still samething. Also matters how much time you have and want to put into the model!
thinner layers are always better so. But the best way I was shown over the years was to add enough thinner or water so when you put your brush threw the paint
there is no streaking about the best advice anyone can give you my friend. hope this helped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Matney X wrote:
I started adding matte medium to my washes, first, and liked how it affected the consistency. Now I just add it to everything. Vallejo's pigments are concentrated enough that I don't notice any transparency.

I'm pretty much the same. But I use retarders and ab thinners mainly.. I can never go back to water you keep your coverage and paint is thinned

I only thin it just enough that it doesn't clog up details. I find 1:1 is often way too watery and not only does it get uselessly thin, but gets streaky as well.

My ratio is probably more like 1:4 or so, maybe even less.

But then again, I'm not looking to use the layer beneath to affect the colour of the top layers nor am I doing heaps of layering - looking at a quick tabletop standard, and I don't have the time right now to be doing 7-8 coats of everything.

I do use a wet palette though, if that makes any difference