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http://news.yahoo.com/2-boys-3-adults-shot-death-illinois-town-210821243.html

The murderer killed his victims with a shotgun. How does this factor in to the recent gun control debate? Well, let's ask the Vice President. (Answer is 1:43 in)

That took me two goes to watch, the interviewers voice is just too hilarious for a newsman

Is that... a woman talking?

Also, Joe Biden doesn't own a gun safe? Wow, that's really unsafe.

I mean yeah he's got the secret service but still.

Guess it's time to start banning those assault double barreled shotguns. I mean really, you should be a good enough shot to kill something with the first blast, why would you need two at the same time?

Needs more shotguns.

I honestly don't get the whole "let's ban this type of gun, but not the rest" thing going on.

If it's to protect from school shootings and that kind of thing... I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter what gun you are using. Fish in a barrel and all that.

This video now tells me that criminals are better off with shotguns, easier to aim.

 Soladrin wrote:

This video now tells me that criminals are better off with shotguns, easier to aim.

Also, has hollywood has clearly shown us, if you shoot someone with a shotgun, they literally fly at least 20 feet (as opposed to a 9mm pistol where you only go 10)

 Soladrin wrote:
Needs more shotguns.

I honestly don't get the whole "let's ban this type of gun, but not the rest" thing going on.

Because it fits in with the "we need to do something" knee jerk reaction, never mind the fact that the legislation will be badly drafted

 Soladrin wrote:
Needs more shotguns.

I honestly don't get the whole "let's ban this type of gun, but not the rest" thing going on.

If it's to protect from school shootings and that kind of thing... I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter what gun you are using. Fish in a barrel and all that.

This video now tells me that criminals are better off with shotguns, easier to aim.

That post brought to mind this video, which I always thought had a pretty interesting take on Bidens "just get a shotgun" mentality.




I think it speaks for itself on how crazy Biden's arguments can come across to people.

You notice in that video how he basically keeps all the weapons up and down range, the whole time??? That's pretty much the textbook way of doing things... you ain't gonna shoot nobody if the muzzle never points remotely in the direction of a person.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
You notice in that video how he basically keeps all the weapons up and down range, the whole time??? That's pretty much the textbook way of doing things... you ain't gonna shoot nobody if the muzzle never points remotely in the direction of a person.

You mean your not supposed to wildly shoot guns off?

But my Vice President told me to...

And people made fun of Cheney when he accidentally shot someone while he was hunting

Yet here we have another VP giving out false information that could actually hurt people. At least Cheney didn't say people shouldn't follow safety procedures.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Yet here we have another VP giving out false information that could actually hurt people. At least Cheney didn't say people shouldn't follow safety procedures.

Yes, but Cheney was clearly giving America a "Do as I say, not as I do" sort of situation... God knows what Biden is trying for.

The second worst thing about the school shooting in Newtown is the way that guns right activists have mined each and every tragedy since then for material to post on Dakka and Facebook supporting their views that George Washington would roll in his grave if even a single person had to take a background check at a gun show before buying a AR-15 with a 100 bullet drum mag.

All of the legislation was shot down, every bit of it, so any time you guys want to stop taking a victory lap on the corpses of dead children, it would be fine with the rest of us.

To much politics and not enough thought went into that bill.

 Ouze wrote:
The second worst thing about the school shooting in Newtown is the way that guns right activists have mined each and every tragedy since then for material to post on Dakka and Facebook supporting their views that George Washington would roll in his grave if even a single person had to take a background check at a gun show before buying a AR-15 with a 100 bullet drum mag.

All of the legislation was shot down, every bit of it, so any time you guys want to stop taking a victory lap on the corpses of dead children, it would be fine with the rest of us.

Er... wut?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jihadin wrote:
To much politics and not enough thought went into that bill.

Yep.

Case in point... newtown family as "stage props".

Ouze wrote:The second worst thing about the school shooting in Newtown is the way that guns right activists have mined each and every tragedy since then for material to post on Dakka and Facebook supporting their views that George Washington would roll in his grave if even a single person had to take a background check at a gun show before buying a AR-15 with a 100 bullet drum mag.

All of the legislation was shot down, every bit of it, so any time you guys want to stop taking a victory lap on the corpses of dead children, it would be fine with the rest of us.

Jihadin wrote:To much politics and not enough thought went into that bill.

To both points here, as a "gun nut" I believe that if certain parts of that bill had been brought up as independent bills, with no baggage tailing on, they could/would have passed; Such as the NICS at gun shows. I think that it goes to show that it's rather a good thing that Government in the US moves so slow, as when they react very quickly, results tend to be poor (or they would be, had results gone the way that some wanted them to).. I mean, if you look at the Volstead Act and Prohibition, by those standards, they passed monumentally quick, and it didn't take very long to figure out that it was a horrible idea.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:


I think it speaks for itself on how crazy Biden's arguments can come across to people.

That if you're shooting at something far away with a shotgun you probably aren't defending yourself?
I'm not sure how many home defense situations end in a running medium range gun battle, but I'm pretty sure it's somewhere around zero.

The point being that a shotgun is no better for home defense than an AR-15, and some people may find the shotgun difficult to handle and reload in the heat of the moment.

Yes, a shotgun is an excellent choice for home defense. But so is an AR-15. It depends on the person.

You can't expect a 120lb women to use a 12 gauge easily without some experience. But she could definitely handle an AR-15. its all about ease of use, and in a home invasion you don't need to be fumbling with loose shells or getting knocked off balance by recoil.

I certainly wouldn't use anything that required me to load rounds individually except a revolver, and then I'd still probably go with a mag loaded weapon simply for speed.

This is impossible. Illinois has some of the toughest gun regulations in the country (though it's about to get constitutional carry because its anti-gun legislators are idiots).

Gun crime cannot happen there.

 Grundz wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:


I think it speaks for itself on how crazy Biden's arguments can come across to people.

That if you're shooting at something far away with a shotgun you probably aren't defending yourself?
I'm not sure how many home defense situations end in a running medium range gun battle, but I'm pretty sure it's somewhere around zero.

That wasn't really the point of the video. He was trying to argue that an AR 15 was far easier to use than a 12 gauge double barreled shotgun for home defense in response to the video Biden was in in the OP. It's the one where he talks about firing both blasts off the back porch into the woods to scare people off and all that. Obviously if you ever had to fight at range, it'd be a plus, but like you said the odds of ever having to do that are EXTREMELY low.

Grey Templar pretty much summed up what the video is trying to say.

Also Ouze, we are not doing "victory laps around the corpses of dead children". We are as horrified about what happened as everyone else. I would go into that more but I'm running the thread off topic enough as is. You can PM me if you feel like it but I'm sure you're as sick of hearing about these kinds of things as the rest of us. After seeing the victims being paraded around, and both sides trying to play off of emotions by using the deaths of children, I'm sure everyone is pretty much sick of this at this point.

 Ouze wrote:
All of the legislation was shot down, every bit of it, so any time you guys want to stop taking a victory lap on the corpses of dead children, it would be fine with the rest of us.

Dude, please. I'm sure there are plenty of us, including myself, who would be willing to engage you in discussion in regards to the rest of your post, but this bit is just straight up uncalled for.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Soladrin wrote:
Needs more shotguns.

I honestly don't get the whole "let's ban this type of gun, but not the rest" thing going on.

If it's to protect from school shootings and that kind of thing... I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter what gun you are using. Fish in a barrel and all that.

This video now tells me that criminals are better off with shotguns, easier to aim.

That post brought to mind this video, which I always thought had a pretty interesting take on Bidens "just get a shotgun" mentality.




I think it speaks for itself on how crazy Biden's arguments can come across to people.

Dude I want that guy's back yard when I retire!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
And people made fun of Cheney when he accidentally shot someone while he was hunting

Yet here we have another VP giving out false information that could actually hurt people. At least Cheney didn't say people shouldn't follow safety procedures.

Yes, accidentally...

You mean you aren't retired?

 Ouze wrote:
The second worst thing about the school shooting in Newtown is the way that guns right activists have mined each and every tragedy since then for material to post on Dakka and Facebook supporting their views that George Washington would roll in his grave if even a single person had to take a background check at a gun show before buying a AR-15 with a 100 bullet drum mag.

All of the legislation was shot down, every bit of it, so any time you guys want to stop taking a victory lap on the corpses of dead children, it would be fine with the rest of us.

No I'll keep going thanks. If someone can pass me a nice six foot made in China American flag while I do it I'd appreciate it.
I wonder if I could put a little flagpole on Team Wienie's harness...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 purplefood wrote:
You mean you aren't retired?

Mentally or physically? Mentally I checked out a long time ago...

 Ouze wrote:
The second worst thing about the school shooting in Newtown is the way that guns right activists have mined each and every tragedy since then for material to post on Dakka and Facebook supporting their views that George Washington would roll in his grave if even a single person had to take a background check at a gun show before buying a AR-15 with a 100 bullet drum mag.

All of the legislation was shot down, every bit of it, so any time you guys want to stop taking a victory lap on the corpses of dead children, it would be fine with the rest of us.

Normally I have a lot of respect for you and what you have to say, but this...really?

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
[
Normally I have a lot of respect for you and what you have to say, but this...really?

I still have a lot of respect for him, because, like him, I am absolutely fething sick of

"Hey everyone, look at this, 10 people got killed in a car pile up, bet Obama's gonna ban your cars now or make you have a license for them!' or 'Look here, this guy stabbed a load of people in a school, bet he's gonna ban knives now' or 'look, a gun other than one of the guns proposed for regulation was used to kill people so I guess that those other guns are just the same as these guns'.... And even the despicable gak eating filth than tried to use the Boston bombing to their advantage for this 'Hah, guess the dictator's gonna ban pressure cookers hah!'

Ad fething infinitum.

Look, Rate of Fire, Need to Reload, Historical Usage in Recent Massacres, counter those and I'm interested, until then, you might just as well have said 'Look, Great White Shark eats dude!' Guess Obama needs to ban giant fish!'

Just please, please, if you are someone that opposes the recent move to prohibit certain types of gun and if your child or relative is wiped off the face of the earth by a lunatic, don't bleat about it, just hold tight to your wonderful gun and make a new kid. Because you brought this on yourself.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
I still have a lot of respect for him, because, like him, I am absolutely fething sick of

"Hey everyone, look at this, 10 people got killed in a car pile up, bet Obama's gonna ban your cars now or make you have a license for them!' or 'Look here, this guy stabbed a load of people in a school, bet he's gonna ban knives now' or 'look, a gun other than one of the guns proposed for regulation was used to kill people so I guess that those other guns are just the same as these guns'.... And even the despicable gak eating filth than tried to use the Boston bombing to their advantage for this 'Hah, guess the dictator's gonna ban pressure cookers hah!'

Ad fething infinitum.

Look, Rate of Fire, Need to Reload, Historical Usage in Recent Massacres, counter those and I'm interested, until then, you might just as well have said 'Look, Great White Shark eats dude!' Guess Obama needs to ban giant fish!'

Just please, please, if you are someone that opposes the recent move to prohibit certain types of gun and if your child or relative is wiped off the face of the earth by a lunatic, don't bleat about it, just hold tight to your wonderful gun and make a new kid. Because you brought this on yourself.

Great way to mis-represent people who enjoy their right to legally own guns without harming other people Maybe you'd care to comment on those who are content to use the deaths of children to push their gun control agendas. I mean if its repugnant for one side to use deaths for political capital why don't you critiscise the other side for doing the same thing? Is it cognitive dissonance?

I'm sick of this mis-representation that anyone looking to exercise their right to legally own a gun is either gloating in the murder of innocents, an apologist for murder, or a murderer-in-waiting. Its crude, its inaccurate, its offensive and the mud slinging polarises the debate instead of finding common ground.

I will say this, it's quite nice to read these back and forths between MGS and Dreadclaw, simply because both of them are former Brits (though I think dread is Irish, but I can't remember) who have settled down here in the US with their respective wives, and yet their opinions are a different as night and day.

My question to the "let's ban guns" people. Whether it's all guns, certain guns, etc... what do we do when things like the murder rate in chicago doesn't drop, or when some lunatic gets his hands on a firearm through less than legal means and shoots up a place with defenseless people? I hate that these things seem to be increasing occurence, and I don't think we should sit on our laurels about this, but what do we do if what I asked earlier in this paragraph happens?0

I currently own 2 guns, 1911 with an 8 round magazine, and a mosin nagant which has the ability to hold 5 rounds maximum via a stripper clip. I don't see the point in owning an AR like my boss who owns several, I certainly don't want my firearms to be taken away, since I own 1 of them for home defense and 1 for target shooting (the mosin is a little hard to use in my house )

 Alfndrate wrote:
I will say this, it's quite nice to read these back and forths between MGS and Dreadclaw, simply because both of them are former Brits (though I think dread is Irish, but I can't remember) who have settled down here in the US with their respective wives, and yet their opinions are a different as night and day.

Yup, but lived in Northern Ireland so I did live in the UK

Its just proof that even people from the same small set of islands can hold different views based on their experiences etc. Its not like most people back home judge Americans by either those living in New York, Texas or California depending on what is being discussed

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Just please, please, if you are someone that opposes the recent move to prohibit certain types of gun and if your child or relative is wiped off the face of the earth by a lunatic, don't bleat about it, just hold tight to your wonderful gun and make a new kid. Because you brought this on yourself.

What the feth do you mean by "brought this on yourself?" I'm not the one trying to take people's rights away and using corpses as an excuse.

According to stats I've seen recently, gun ownership has been trending down for some years, and so has violent crime. There may or may not be any connection between those things.

However, gun ownership is a complicated social situation.

As regards your hypothetical question, we look at the example of other countries which don't have widespread guns and see they have much lower rates of gun crime (and accidents, suicide.)That doesn't necessarily mean that the USA would be the same, however why would it not be?

Presumably if the experiment were tried and failed, it could simply be reversed. Saying that it might not work is not a rational reason not to do an experiment.