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I'm rejigging my V3 armoured company list a bit, and I've reached the point where I can either have 4 17pdr M10s that leave me with 20pts spare that I can't do anything with, or having a 4th Stuart in my Recce team that leaves me with 1750pts on the dot, at the cost of having only 4 3" M10s. Question is, am I always better off going for 17pdrs on M10s no matter what? Or are 3" guns reasonable enough to take instead (or in this case, reasonable enough to allow me to take a 4th Stuart)? I currently only have 4 3" M10s which I got in a trade, but I'd prefer to not have to buy 4 brand new ones if 17pdrs are necessary.

Honestly, I find I use Stuarts badly because I always get suckered into the "OOOOhhh it's a little tank" and tend to fire their gun at things like AA or light armour or infantry when they should really be revealing gone to ground. They are Recce but I tend to use them incorrectly, I call this the "PUMA" effect because I do it with German 8 Wheel PUMA's as they have an outrageous gun.

Therefore to make up for my lack of savvy, or to stop me even having the option to do it, I take Recce that isn't a tank, like a Dingo or the Stuart with the turret removed, or even the Bren Gun carrier scouts.

Just my pennies worth, the Self propelled M10's are pretty damn awesome.

In the Market Garden book, there is a British Motor Company List pg 118. that allows for 8 (yes 8) of the Self propelled 17 pounder buggers for like 740pts. I like this list, and am currently building the models to make it happen. The SP M10C 17 pounder terrifies Panther or Tiger Lists, with a good round of shooting with 4 in a platoon you can absolutely hammer a German Panzer List, with 8 you can own them!

Which gun do you use on them, though?

Well it depends....(politician answer)

Do you ever use HE? If yes I would suggest that if you are then you are probably using Tank Destroyers incorrectly or the SP Artillery Correctly.

This is my own take on it - The 17lber is superior because of the AT value, but you lose HE. But to my mind, why the hell are using a TD to fire HE? It's prime Raison d'etre is to kill tanks, therefore AT is everything. The confusion kicks in because of it being SP Royal Artillery rather than a true TD. I just use them solely as a TD. So I always go with 17 pounder, I have never fought an all infantry Late War German list and this would be my achilles heel without any HE.

As it stands I tend to be against a mixture of German Heavy Armour with some supporting elements and batter the German tanks before their Panthers or Tigers or Elephants take me out.

Sherman Fireflys are good, but tend to get Gun Tanked to hell really quickly, so 8 M10C's for 740pts is really outrageously good, I think it's the only list with 2 full platoons of SP 17 pounders in the list and you still have nice options.

 mwnciboo wrote:
But to my mind, why the hell are using a TD to fire HE?

Because your opponent is using a true infantry list. I quite like playing LW armies with all the toys (ie 300+ point MGs).

Personally I take Fireflies over Achilles (and I wont take wolverines at all unless there is a specifc reason to do so) but if do take some M10s then the Achilles is a better choice simply because it is better at killing tanks.

3 Stuarts are plenty, they aren't there for their combat ability.

What could I spend my last 20pts on, then? Just shoving AA mounts on stuff?

Bear in mind that I haven't even played my first game of FoW yet (doing that next Tuesday), currently my revised list stands at:

Armoured Squadron HQ
4x Sherman V - 265

Armoured Platoon
2x Sherman V, 1x Sherman Firefly - 215

Armoured Platoon
1x Sherman V, 1x Sherman V w/ AA MG, 1x Sherman Firefly - 220

Recce Patrol
3x Stuart V - 120

Rifle Platoon
3 Rifle Squads - 140

Anti-tank Platoon (SP), Royal Artillery
4x M10C 17 pdr - 260

Field Battery (SP), Royal Artillery:
8x Sextons - 340

Air Support:
Limited Air Support Typhoon - 170

Company Points:
1730

Basically, I can start handing out AA MGs like sweets to get rid of some spare points, or start pulling bits of it apart; the only thing I'm really set on taking is the Sexton battery (not least because it allows me to use smoke).

I'd like to up the armoured platoons to 3 Vs and a FF each, but that either requires the downgrading of the 8 Sextons to 4 (and I'd prefer 8, but 4 allows me to keep them in, anyway); removing the Rifle platoon (but I could really use something to sit on an objective); or removing the air support (which, even if it is limited, looks pretty damn useful). I figure that I can't really drop the M10s because I could really use TDs, and removing the Stuarts would leave me Recce-less.

If I knock the Sextons down to 4, then I lose the awesome stuff a battery of 8 would get, but I get 2 more Vs and a 4th Stuart (since 40pts couldn't go anywhere else). If I knock the Air Support off, then I have 65pts left when all's said and done, but no spare Sherman slot; only a spare Stuart slot which leaves me with 25ps knocking about; alternatively, I could also lose the 3 Rifle Squads in favour of 2 Allied Paras and hit 1750 on the nose, but I'd lose 2 Rifle/MG bases at the cost of my objective holders becoming Fearless Veteran. I think having an extra 2 bases would be favourable, though, even it does mean living with a chunk of spare points. Losing just the rifle platoon leaves me without holders and with a 30pts I can't do a whole lot with.

On the other hand, I could just try and live with armoured platoons of 3 tanks each, but Shermans are quite fragile when faced by Axis weaponry, and I can do without them turning tail as easily as they currently would.

The truth is don't sweat it, just play the game and learn. The reason I say this is that some playstyles don't fit certain lists, you are better off starting with whatever and then tailoring your list as you improve and you get to know how you like to fight and how you like to approach each tactical Problem.

FoW is much more balanced than say 40k, so getting a "Competitive/Good" list is less of an issue than say employing the units effectively.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
I'm rejigging my V3 armoured company list a bit, and I've reached the point where I can either have 4 17pdr M10s that leave me with 20pts spare that I can't do anything with, or having a 4th Stuart in my Recce team that leaves me with 1750pts on the dot, at the cost of having only 4 3" M10s. Question is, am I always better off going for 17pdrs on M10s no matter what? Or are 3" guns reasonable enough to take instead (or in this case, reasonable enough to allow me to take a 4th Stuart)? I currently only have 4 3" M10s which I got in a trade, but I'd prefer to not have to buy 4 brand new ones if 17pdrs are necessary.

What is your expectation for the tank destroyers? If the goal is destroying tanks then always take 17pdrs. Use the "extra" 20 points for options in the your other units, either for AA MG mounts, or some other option. Even if you don't use those 20 points it won't hurt you much.

The only time the 17pdr is tough is if you are facing an all infantry and gun team force in which case the 17pdrs cannot target anything useful. Which British list are you playing? Standard Armored or Irish Guards with shermans/fireflies or Welsh guards armored recce with cromwells and centurians? If you are worried about infantry and you are playing Irish guards with 2 fireflies per tank platoon, you can probably be OK with 3" M10s and an extra stuart. If you are playing welsh guards recce and expecting to face armor then the 17pdrs will more than pay for themselves.

As for buying new minis, I don't know anyone who will complain if you use 17pdr M10s to fill in for 3" M10s or vice versa for a single unit on the table. Get's hinky if you've got 2 units and want to use the same models to represent two different versions on the table, but otherwise I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Skriker

Skriker is spot on. If you turn up with M10's and tell me they are 17 pounders, as far as I'm concerned they are...If you tell me the same models in another game are 3", fine.

None of us are Millionaires! Otherwise my collection would be much bigger, but still approximately half the size of Tom Wise's collection....

http://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=53&art_id=2174



Yes these are Tigers and King Tigers.........

Thats not a hobby, thats mental sickness.