Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

We have a couple necron players in the club including me. One guy thinks that you still get RP rolls when falling back because of the second paragraph in RP. I told him first paragraph says get rid of all tokens they stay dead if you fall back from failed morale or the likes.

Only everliving tokens get to roll on fallbacks, sweeps included.

Given the new ruling on RFPAAC does this mean Everliving tokens will get an RP roll after a sweeping advance?

or does the "no save or other special rule can rescue the unitat this stage; for them tbe battle is over." clause kick in counting RP as other special rule?

If the unit falls back, the only reanimations you can make are ever-living rolls.

ex. Unit of warriors runs, they leave behind the dead, no reanimations rolled
unit of warriors with lord runs, lord died in combat, you'd roll for JUST him, no other warriors

If your entire unit is removed you can't get up unless you're ever living

You can roll RP for EL models after sweeping advance.

copper.talos wrote:
You can roll RP for EL models after sweeping advance.

Wow! I didn't even play it like that, Ive been giving my friends easier games!!!!

tgf wrote:

or does the "no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them tbe battle is over." clause kick in counting RP as other special rule?

Yes, both reanimation protocols & ever lying are special rules and since the sweeping advance rules clearly state that no special rules can be used to save the models.

Therefore, the proper way to play this IMO, is that if the Necron character actually gets swept, then it does not get to place an ever living token, as doing so would violate the sweeping advance rules.

However, if the character was simply killed during the combat and an EL token placed, then even if his former unit then gets swept, the model can attempt to get back up.

But Reanimation Protocol does not save the character, it brings it back to life after they die.

'Rescuing' a model would be a rule that somehow stops him from dying.
I don't think it counts as being rescued when you die and than come back to life.

I think any number of hospitals would disagree with you there

It also states the UNIT cannot be rescued - which you are doing

The unit was there
The unit was destroyed through SA
The unit tries to come back through rolling for EL

You have no permission to rescue the unit, because EL does not specify it works again SA. We can tell that through the simple expedient of EL not ever mentioning SA.

Copper remains wrong on this, and I disagree with Yak that EL models who were already "tokened" can come back, as they CERTAINLY are a member of the unit

EL happens at the end of phase not at the time of the sweeping advance. The model was not saved it died. Why would you not get everliving? You could still have 3 more melee combats between now and then.

On the original question:
If the unit falls back, all RP counters are picked up. EL counters are not picked up.

 yakface wrote:

tgf wrote:

or does the "no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them tbe battle is over." clause kick in counting RP as other special rule?

Yes, both reanimation protocols & ever lying are special rules and since the sweeping advance rules clearly state that no special rules can be used to save the models.

Therefore, the proper way to play this IMO, is that if the Necron character actually gets swept, then it does not get to place an ever living token, as doing so would violate the sweeping advance rules.

However, if the character was simply killed during the combat and an EL token placed, then even if his former unit then gets swept, the model can attempt to get back up.

Agreed.

 Mythra wrote:
EL happens at the end of phase not at the time of the sweeping advance. The model was not saved it died. Why would you not get everliving? You could still have 3 more melee combats between now and then.

Actually it was saved, otherwise it might give up a VP/KP eh?

According to what you're selling a unit would give up multiple VP's

No I am saying it doesn't happen at the time of the sweeping advance. It happens after so SA doesn't stop EL from happening later.

copper.talos wrote:
You can roll RP for EL models after sweeping advance.

Not RP you can't, you'd have failed a moral test at that point which causes your unit to fall back which means all RP counters are lost.

 Mythra wrote:
No I am saying it doesn't happen at the time of the sweeping advance. It happens after so SA doesn't stop EL from happening later.

Unit A was destroyed
YOu make an EL roll, and bring a model from unit A back

Unit A is now not destroyed. Cite page and paragraph that allows you to do this, in direct contradiction to the SA rules which requires a specific rule to ignore SA.

let us start with.

Sweeping Advance (Pg. 27 Top left. BRB) "The destroyed unit is immediately removed as casualties. Unless other wise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage."

Now onto.

Reanimation Protocols: ((Pg 29 Top Left Necron Codex, 5th ed.) "Whenever a unit take one or more casualties, place counters or a suitable marker next to the unit.- If the unit make a fall back move remove any counter from it.- Reanimation Protocols cannot be attempted if the unit has been destroyed. Note that characters do not count as part of the unit for the purposes of Reanimation Protocols."

Then there is.

Ever-Living (Pg 29, Top Right, Necron Codex, 5th ed.) "if a model with this special rule is removed as a casualty, do not place a Reanimation Protocols counter to its unit. Instead place an Ever-Living counter where the model was removed from play. At the end of the phase, roll for this counter, just as you would for a Reanimation Protocols counter. "


Based on these rules a Model with the Reanimation Protocols and its unit if Sweeping Advanced cannot use there RP as the unit was wiped out. However, if that unit had a model with the Ever-Living Special Rule, only the model with the EL rule could make a RP check and then would become a unit by its self no longer part of the original unit, as that unit was destroyed in the SA. If the RP check was failed for the EL model then not only would the unit award a KP but so would the EL model, effectively giving up two KP's. One for the unit and one for the EL model in the unit. (Note: That all Models with the Ever-Living rule are Characters.)

Also Not that SA removes models as casualties and that you cannot save the unit from this without a special rule that lets you. As RP/EL checks happen after the model with said rules is removed from play as a causality I do not see how a EL check can be denied.
Maybe that helps.

Edit: removed, answered

BLADERIKER wrote:
let us start with.

Sweeping Advance (Pg. 27 Top left. BRB) "The destroyed unit is immediately removed as casualties. Unless other wise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage."

Now onto.

Reanimation Protocols: ((Pg 29 Top Left Necron Codex, 5th ed.) "Whenever a unit take one or more casualties, place counters or a suitable marker next to the unit.- If the unit make a fall back move remove any counter from it.- Reanimation Protocols cannot be attempted if the unit has been destroyed. Note that characters do not count as part of the unit for the purposes of Reanimation Protocols."

Then there is.

Ever-Living (Pg 29, Top Right, Necron Codex, 5th ed.) "if a model with this special rule is removed as a casualty, do not place a Reanimation Protocols counter to its unit. Instead place an Ever-Living counter where the model was removed from play. At the end of the phase, roll for this counter, just as you would for a Reanimation Protocols counter. "


Based on these rules a Model with the Reanimation Protocols and its unit if Sweeping Advanced cannot use there RP as the unit was wiped out. However, if that unit had a model with the Ever-Living Special Rule, only the model with the EL rule could make a RP check and then would become a unit by its self no longer part of the original unit, as that unit was destroyed in the SA. If the RP check was failed for the EL model then not only would the unit award a KP but so would the EL model, effectively giving up two KP's. One for the unit and one for the EL model in the unit. (Note: That all Models with the Ever-Living rule are Characters.)

Also Not that SA removes models as casualties and that you cannot save the unit from this without a special rule that lets you. As RP/EL checks happen after the model with said rules is removed from play as a causality I do not see how a EL check can be denied.
Maybe that helps.

Agreed, the EL ability triggers AFTER it has been removed as a casualty, the SA rules IMO is designed to prevent arguments on multi-wound characters, ethernal warrior and FNP rules. One of those rules I could see being denied by the SA because they try to prevent the model being either ID'ed or removed as a casualty (same as armor/cover/inv. saves) but EL requires the model to be removed first so SA would trigger it not prevent it. RP would also be denied by the SA and can be justified in 2 ways: the unit fails it's moral check thus losing its RP for the models lost in the assault or in terms of SA, the entire unit is wiped so no RP.

Gwan123 wrote:
SA rules IMO is designed to prevent arguments on multi-wound characters, ethernal warrior and FNP rules.

None of those examples have anything to do with Sweeping Advance. It doesn't cause wounds - it doesn't care how many wounds you have left, it doesn't cause Instant Death and it doesn't cause wounds.

If EL characters can't come back because no special rule can save the unit, how can ATSKNF stop the unit from being sweeping advanced? There is already precedence for being "saved". As other people have pointed out the model was destroyed, that wasn't stopped, they simply returned to the battle.

Right. Sweeping Advance causes the model or unit to be removed from the game with no chance of recovery via any special rule, unless the special rule explicitly states otherwise. And They Shall No No Fear is an example; it specifically states that it saves the unit from dying to a Sweeping Advance.

RP & EL do not, because they don't say that they can save you from Sweeping Advance.

Now, for the argument folks try to make that they're not saving the unit, but they can come back anyway, I'm afraid that's not the nature of those rules. We don't get a new Victory Point (old-style KP) every time we kill a unit with EL. It's not a NEW unit. It's the SAME unit, coming back. When an Everliving model stands back up that DOES save the Victory Point, because it's saving the unit from being dead. Which is something Sweeping Advance does not allow.

 Gravmyr wrote:
If EL characters can't come back because no special rule can save the unit, how can ATSKNF stop the unit from being sweeping advanced? There is already precedence for being "saved". As other people have pointed out the model was destroyed, that wasn't stopped, they simply returned to the battle.

Because ATSKNF states that it can stop the SA specifically.

 Gravmyr wrote:
If EL characters can't come back because no special rule can save the unit, how can ATSKNF stop the unit from being sweeping advanced? There is already precedence for being "saved". As other people have pointed out the model was destroyed, that wasn't stopped, they simply returned to the battle.

Does ASTKNF have a specific exemption?
Does EL?

 Mannahnin wrote:
Right. Sweeping Advance causes the model or unit to be removed from the game with no chance of recovery via any special rule, unless the special rule explicitly states otherwise. And They Shall No No Fear is an example; it specifically states that it saves the unit from dying to a Sweeping Advance.

RP & EL do not, because they don't say that they can save you from Sweeping Advance.

Now, for the argument folks try to make that they're not saving the unit, but they can come back anyway, I'm afraid that's not the nature of those rules. We don't get a new Victory Point (old-style KP) every time we kill a unit with EL. It's not a NEW unit. It's the SAME unit, coming back. Which is something Sweeping Advance does not allow.

RAW this is incorrect. The unit is removed as casualties. EL does not stop that from occurring. Therefore SA condition is met and nothing in SA states that the EL token is not placed. Therefore the EL token can be rolled for at the end of the phase.

It's like you completely ignored his last paragraph.
Fragile - so you're of the opinion that EL creates new units?
Is this only when SAed or is it any time EL is passed?

They can write all the exceptions they want and it won't matter. SA says no special rules work that would save the unit, therefor ATSKNF cannot override SA as it is a special rule. The best you can get is a roll off. The special rule allows the unit to remain locked in combat. That would save them if it had permission to over rule that no special rules work.

It's like a drop pod disgorging it's contents and being open topped. The unit that disembarks has permission to charge after disembarking but not permission to charge after coming in from reserve. In this case a SM unit has permission to remain locked in combat but it does not have permission to use it's special rule.

 Gravmyr wrote:
They can write all the exceptions they want and it won't matter. SA says no special rules work that would save the unit, therefor ATSKNF cannot override SA as it is a special rule. The best you can get is a roll off. The special rule allows the unit to remain locked in combat. That would save them if it had permission to over rule that no special rules work.

Perhaps you should read the SA rule and use an argument that's actually correct.

 Gravmyr wrote:
They can write all the exceptions they want and it won't matter. SA says no special rules work that would save the unit, therefor ATSKNF cannot override SA as it is a special rule.

Man if only GW addressed what happens when there is a conflict between a basic rule (SA) and an advanced rule (ATSKNF)...

I was waiting for someone else to bring that up, which only goes to re-enforce that EL would still work against SA. Is EL advanced and SA basic?

Yes I know ATSKNF works against SA but using it as a comparison seemed the only way to point out a similar situation.

 Gravmyr wrote:
I was waiting for someone else to bring that up, which only goes to re-enforce that EL would still work against SA. Is EL advanced and SA basic?

Yes I know ATSKNF works against SA but using it as a comparison seemed the only way to point out a similar situation.

BRB 27 wrote:Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over.

Between ATSKNF and EL one of them specifies otherwise.
Which one is it?

Both. You are given specific instructions that at all times when you remove a model as a casualty you can use EL.