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 Gravmyr wrote:
Both. You are given specific instructions that at all times when you remove a model as a casualty you can use EL.

So EL specifies what happens when Sweeping Advanced?

Because the rule says "specifies" not "general allowance".

Did you remove the model from the board?

 Gravmyr wrote:
Did you remove the model from the board?

So your answer is "no" then - just the same general instructions for anything EL does. Nothing specific like SA requires.

My question remains? Was the model removed from the board?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We all know the answer is yes the model was removed as a casualty. It died. Was SA stopped? No it has occurred. Now what happens? EL kicks in and puts down a marker. Has SA occurred? Still yes. End of phase you make your roll for EL and the model stands up. Did SA occur and was the model destroyed? Yes. Did it still come back into play? Yes.

Now a save would prevent that from happening correct? Yes.
It would stop the process of SA and the removal of the model? Yes.
Does the model returning to play happen at the the SA stage? No.
Does SA affect the rules of the game past the determining Assault results stage? No.
"Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."
Does SA change what rules can be applied after the Determining Assault Results stage? No.
When Does EL kick in? After end of combat.

 Gravmyr wrote:
My question remains? Was the model removed from the board?

The answer is yes.
That doesn't change the fact that there's no specific mention of what to do when SAed.

Edit: So was the unit rescued? Or is this a new unit?

Do I get a Victory Point in Purge the Alien each time the unit dies, or just once? If the latter is true, than EL must be saving the same unit.

The way I read EL the unit of say warriors is gone. The unit itself has been removed and the EL character remains. In the case of ICs they go back to being single units or in the case of members of the RC they go on to form a RC or join a new unit if possible. The unit of warriors that was swept is gone and you get a VP though.

 Gravmyr wrote:
The way I read EL the unit of say warriors is gone. The unit itself has been removed and the EL character remains. In the case of ICs they go back to being single units or in the case of members of the RC they go on to form a RC or join a new unit if possible. The unit of warriors that was swept is gone and you get a VP though.

So, using how you read it - Warriors with Lord are caught in SA. Lord comes back from EL. If using VPs, a VP is gained due to the Warrior unit being destroyed. Unless attached to a scoring unit, the Lord is no longer scoring. Is that correct?

Second question. How do you determine if the RC member forms a new Court, or joins a unit (either as a leader or the RC), as the decision is made before the battle.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Right. Sweeping Advance causes the model or unit to be removed from the game with no chance of recovery via any special rule, unless the special rule explicitly states otherwise. And They Shall No No Fear is an example; it specifically states that it saves the unit from dying to a Sweeping Advance.

RP & EL do not, because they don't say that they can save you from Sweeping Advance.

Now, for the argument folks try to make that they're not saving the unit, but they can come back anyway, I'm afraid that's not the nature of those rules. We don't get a new Victory Point (old-style KP) every time we kill a unit with EL. It's not a NEW unit. It's the SAME unit, coming back. When an Everliving model stands back up that DOES save the Victory Point, because it's saving the unit from being dead. Which is something Sweeping Advance does not allow.

The issue is that the Character/IC with the EL rule is removed as a casualty as being SA still makes its EL roll after as it was removed as a casualty. RP/EL in no way stops SA from happening. Also Once the unit that the Character/IC joined is wiped out they no longer count as part of that unit (Which is why you can not use the EL model to bring back the whole unit it was attached to.

Also a Unit with EL only counts as a VP/KP if it fails its EL check and is removed as a casualty. If it fails its check after a SA then it only counts as part of the unit that was SA (it does not stop that unit from being counted as a KP/VP) , if it gets back up then it will counts as its own kill point as it is a unit of itself.

Edit: Yes that is correct he would have to be scoring on his own as the unit that was scoring is gone he does not have that ability himself.

The EL rule itself allows a model with it to join a new unit when coming back into play if the unit it was attached to no longer exists. If when returned it is placed within coherency of a unit it can join you may have it join.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Gravmyr wrote:
The way I read EL the unit of say warriors is gone. The unit itself has been removed and the EL character remains. In the case of ICs they go back to being single units or in the case of members of the RC they go on to form a RC or join a new unit if possible. The unit of warriors that was swept is gone and you get a VP though.

So, using how you read it - Warriors with Lord are caught in SA. Lord comes back from EL. If using VPs, a VP is gained due to the Warrior unit being destroyed. Unless attached to a scoring unit, the Lord is no longer scoring. Is that correct?

Second question. How do you determine if the RC member forms a new Court, or joins a unit (either as a leader or the RC), as the decision is made before the battle.

The stand alone Lord/Cryptek is a Character not an IC so once its unit is gone it can be joined by an IC or act as a unit of its own. If it is part of the RC at the beginning then it will try to move back into coherency should the RC be swept. Of course if the RC is swept they all get EL rolls

BLADERIKER wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Gravmyr wrote:
The way I read EL the unit of say warriors is gone. The unit itself has been removed and the EL character remains. In the case of ICs they go back to being single units or in the case of members of the RC they go on to form a RC or join a new unit if possible. The unit of warriors that was swept is gone and you get a VP though.

So, using how you read it - Warriors with Lord are caught in SA. Lord comes back from EL. If using VPs, a VP is gained due to the Warrior unit being destroyed. Unless attached to a scoring unit, the Lord is no longer scoring. Is that correct?

Second question. How do you determine if the RC member forms a new Court, or joins a unit (either as a leader or the RC), as the decision is made before the battle.

The stand alone Lord/Cryptek is a Character not an IC so once its unit is gone it can be joined by an IC or act as a unit of its own. If it is part of the RC at the beginning then it will try to move back into coherency should the RC be swept. Of course if the RC is swept they all get EL rolls

I did not realize that Lords/Crypteks could join other units by coming back.

Of course you are still assuming that a model with EL can get back up from SA without specific permission.

You are assuming that they didn't fulfill the requirement of SA by being removed as a casualty. SA only requires the models to be removed as casualties. It does not require that no models in the unit can ever be brought back to "life" or into play just that they be removed.

except the model has been removed, as a casualty, with a special rule (sweeping advance), that specifically negates special rules like RP and EL, but not special rules that "otherwise state" such as atsknf.

kind of like how you dont get FnP on wounds with the ID rule, ID specifically negates what FnP is

I am saying it met removed as a casualty and it met the SA rule. Is there a Duration for Sweeping advance? Does it end once the requirements are met or is permanent and forever?

What special rules would SA affect if there are none but EL then it may be in there for EL. SA already stops RP as the moral check is failed and counters are removed then.

Does SA stop St Celestine(that is the SoB that comes back right?) from coming back or Justicar Thrawn?

And it does say if the unit is gone the EL model can join a unit if in the 3' range.

 Gravmyr wrote:
You are assuming that they didn't fulfill the requirement of SA by being removed as a casualty. SA only requires the models to be removed as casualties. It does not require that no models in the unit can ever be brought back to "life" or into play just that they be removed.

It says the unit is destroyed, not individuals models.
I'm sure you're just misremembering the difference.

The unit is RFP and cannot be rescued unless otherwise specified.
Does EL specify? You've admitted the answer is no.

Show me anything that says no model can be returned to play. Was the unit removed from play as casualties? Was is saved if it died and returned? No it fulfilled the rules as set forth by dying. It uses the wording saved. Which means kept from dying. It does not say that the models that die cannot be returned to play. The models that are returned through EL died. Therefor they were neither saved nor rescued.

 Gravmyr wrote:
Show me anything that says no model can be returned to play. Was the unit removed from play as casualties? Was is saved if it died and returned? No it fulfilled the rules as set forth by dying. It uses the wording saved. Which means kept from dying. It does not say that the models that die cannot be returned to play. The models that are returned through EL died. Therefor they were neither saved nor rescued.

So if you had only a single Lord (for arguments sake). It is attached t a unit of warriors. The unit gets swept, and the Lord passes his EL roll (assuming he can take it). Do I get a VP for killing the unit? If I kill the Lord in the following turn and he gets up, do I get another VP? What if on the following turn, I put him down for good?

We have always played that when an RC member gets split off he is for all purposes part of the new unit. If a cryptek is joined to a warrior squad said warrior squad is not destoryed until the cryptek is dead.

Before the battle, each member of the Royal Court has the option of being split off from his unit and assigned to lead a
different unit from the following list: Necron Warriors, Necron Immortals, Lychguard or Deathmarks. Only one member of
the Royal Court can join each unit in this manner. Otherwise, they remain part of the Royal Court.

Our justification for playing it this way is the final sentence. Otherwise they remain part of the Royal Court. This sentence suggests when they are split off the are no longer part of the royal court. It is a simple interpretation but it is not game breaking and resolves all the questions you guys pose above, or that have been posed in the past.

That's the way I normally see it played as well. He's part of the unit, so his KP/VP is part of the unit's.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Do I get a Victory Point in Purge the Alien each time the unit dies, or just once? If the latter is true, than EL must be saving the same unit.

Except that the unit is not saved.
The unit is killed, he just gets back up later because that is what zombie-robots do when they die.

In that scenario there is nothing that breaks the SA-rule.
They flee, they get killed, SA is happy,
At the END of the phase, they get back up due to EL.

Kangodo wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
Do I get a Victory Point in Purge the Alien each time the unit dies, or just once? If the latter is true, than EL must be saving the same unit.

Except that the unit is not saved.
The unit is killed, he just gets back up later because that is what zombie-robots do when they die.

In that scenario there is nothing that breaks the SA-rule.
They flee, they get killed, SA is happy,
At the END of the phase, they get back up due to EL.

You seem to have a mis-guided idea of what EL actually does. To illustrate this, lets take sweeping advance out of the picture for the time being.

When a model with EL gets killed and an EL token is placed, and that model subsequently gets back up, is this the same model (unit), or a new one?

The answer is: it is the same model (unit), as it is not worth a new kill point each time it goes down and it comes back with the same Wargear it had, etc.

So it doesn't matter if the model is removed as a casualty, if RP, EL, Yarrick's ability to stand back up, the old bionics special rule or even St Celestine's ability can allow it to come back, these are ALL special rules used to save the model (unit) by returning it to play, which is specifically disallowed by the Sweeping Advance rules.

It's why one of the very few ways to get rid of Celestine is to cast the Terrify psychic piwer on her and then catch her in a sweeping advance.

I echo Gravmyr and Kangodo's sentiments. In phase order, there is no rules conflict. The conflict has to be constructed by operating out of order or misuse (most likely accidental) of the word "save".

I'd just like to add for all to consider:

At no point in the EL or the RP entry in the codex is it referred to as a "save". In fact, there's an odd beat in the rules at that point which describe the roll required to come back by listing all six numeral possibilities and their subsequent result. The standard entry for saves: X+ is not used here. To call RP a save is not a description of the rules on the page. For instance, let's say saving throws were described as Protection Rolls instead. We wouldn't argue that a re-animated model was protected at a specific point in which it was not allowed to be, now would we? We would say that it was denied any protection rolls, removed from play, and then re-animated. The model was never "saved" from the event - the event happened! And following suit, the model re-animated per the rules set.

 yakface wrote:
[

So it doesn't matter if the model is removed as a casualty, if RP, EL, Yarrick's ability to stand back up, the old bionics special rule or even St Celestine's ability can allow it to come back, these are ALL special rules used to save the model (unit) by returning it to play, which is specifically disallowed by the Sweeping Advance rules.

This is an interpretation and very well could be RAI. But nothing 'saves' the unit from SA. SA takes effect and the entire unit is removed as casualties. SA was triggered and took effect. Nothing saved the unit from the lost combat and its effects. The placing of the token is a separate mechanic entirely.

Fragile wrote:

 yakface wrote:
[

So it doesn't matter if the model is removed as a casualty, if RP, EL, Yarrick's ability to stand back up, the old bionics special rule or even St Celestine's ability can allow it to come back, these are ALL special rules used to save the model (unit) by returning it to play, which is specifically disallowed by the Sweeping Advance rules.

This is an interpretation and very well could be RAI. But nothing 'saves' the unit from SA. SA takes effect and the entire unit is removed as casualties. SA was triggered and took effect. Nothing saved the unit from the lost combat and its effects. The placing of the token is a separate mechanic entirely.

If a Necron Lord on his own is killed by enemy shooting and then returns to play via EL, is this a new unit or the same one?

If it is the same unit, then no logical argument can be made to say that RP/EL isn't a special rule that is saving the unit from taking no further part of the game.

What you are claiming is factually impossible.

I believe the SA text is referring to a mechanic described in the game as "saving throws". See my entry above for my opinion on that matter. RP is not a saving throw.


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Any VP sloppiness isn't of note ASFAIK, because VP are rewarded at the end of the game - not in the middle of play.

No, if it meant saving throws it would say saving throws, or "saves". GW's language when describing saves is quite consistent.

It's instead a comprehensive statement that no special rule or other means can save the unit. That the unit cannot take any further part in the battle, and no special rule can prevent this, unless said special rule specifically exempts the unit from Sweeping Advance.

Thokt wrote:
I believe the SA text is referring to a mechanic described in the game as "saving throws". See my entry above for my opinion on that matter. RP is not a saving throw.

Factually incorrect. ATSKNF isn't a save either.

Any VP sloppiness isn't of note ASFAIK, because VP are rewarded at the end of the game - not in the middle of play.

True. It's awarded for every unit completely destroyed.
Which, if EL creates a new unit, a unit was completely destroyed. Just like spawned gants.

Thokt wrote:
I believe the SA text is referring to a mechanic described in the game as "saving throws". See my entry above for my opinion on that matter. RP is not a saving throw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Any VP sloppiness isn't of note ASFAIK, because VP are rewarded at the end of the game - not in the middle of play.

So if I kill a unit of Warriors on the top of Turn 1 and the attached Lord or Cryptek stands back up do I still get First Blood?

Hasn't this been argued about fifteen times before? And GW hasn't FAQ'd it? Wouldn't that mean it should be forehead slappingly easy?

If you're swept, you're gone. I can see the case where the lord dies in a challenge and then his unit is swept; he can then stand up. But if it's EL and it's swept? Peace out.

Thanks for filling me on St. Celestine. That's good to know! I also found the other way she bites it last weekend... Deep strike mishap! XD