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Decrepit Dakkanaut




Copper - except in "fighting a battle"

Is that the sum total of your argument? What about the fact that you are rescuing the unit?

The unit was destroyed
You have reversed that position
You have broken the SA rule.

Done. Page and paragraph showing how you have SAVED the unit. Any further attempts to claim "but its later!" will be met with reminders of WBB, which happened an entire TURN LATER, yet was STILL a special rule which SAVED the unit.
   
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nosferatu1001 wrote:
Citation for the part I clearly denoted was what "battle" means?

"Battle" as a definition has been given many, many times. This is a clear directive, which you are choosing to ignore.


Really... page please, where it is "defined"

Where in SA does it specify it works against Sweeping Advance. You are aware of what specify means, yes? Read ATSKNF, note how it specificaly states it operates against Sweeping Advance. Does EL? No? Then I gues you remain wrong on this.


It doesnt need to, because there is no conflict. The unit is removed as casualties, models are taken off the board and dumped into whatever you carry them in. SA is satisfied. EL triggers on a different time.

SA demands that "for them, the battle is over"
Like vehicles dont give First blood, or Purge the Alien only counts vechicles?

   
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Fragile wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Citation for the part I clearly denoted was what "battle" means?

"Battle" as a definition has been given many, many times. This is a clear directive, which you are choosing to ignore.


Really... page please, where it is "defined"

Where in SA does it specify it works against Sweeping Advance. You are aware of what specify means, yes? Read ATSKNF, note how it specificaly states it operates against Sweeping Advance. Does EL? No? Then I gues you remain wrong on this.


It doesnt need to, because there is no conflict. The unit is removed as casualties, models are taken off the board and dumped into whatever you carry them in. SA is satisfied. EL triggers on a different time.

SA demands that "for them, the battle is over"
Like vehicles dont give First blood, or Purge the Alien only counts vechicles?



Well, if you really want to get technical, the only way to get First Blood is if you Sweep an enemy unit or run an enemy unit off the board.

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Fragile - erm, have you been following the thread? "Fighting a Battle" tells you what the "battle" comprises. Read it, love it

How is there no conflict?

You are directed that, for them, the battle is over. You know that unit you bring back to life, that can now continue the battle? That one? That breaks the SA rule, as their battle is NOT over. Again, there really IS a conflict. Again: WBB occurred a whole TURN later aand was STILL a special rule that saves the unit.

Where is your allowance now? Page and graph, or concede.
   
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 Gravmyr wrote:

Except he,Yak, said that EL can save the unit if they fell in close combat but his unit was then Swept. While I started out in this vein I have since changed my outlook to say if that is true then they get EL even if they fall to Sweeping Advance. The reason being it would "save" the unit if that were the case. Since the unit is being removed as a casualty then their use of saved and rescued must reference "from dying or being hurt, damaged, or lost" as those are the options of being a casualty and also saved. As such I posted my beliefs as to why they would get EL as they were not prevented "from dying or being hurt, damaged, or lost " as they were removed as a casualty.



This sounds allot like what happens if a Monolith takes a hit that results in it's particle whip is destroyed. A nice friendly Spyder that was next to it, uses it's fabricator claw array it repairs the particle whip, allowing the weapon to be used in the next shooting phase.

The part of the SA rule that requires that the unit/model be destroyed is satisfied - EL essentially repairs the destroyed EL model to a reduced capacity ( 1 Wound ).

Is this what you are saying?

It makes sense from a real world perspective, such that a tank might get hit and turned into battlefield debris, but as long as the main hull is essentially intact, it can be removed from the battlefield, repaired, and eventually placed back in service - it might not be cost effective, but it could be done, and probably easier to understand than the doctor analogy.

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 Chopper Greg wrote:
 Gravmyr wrote:

Except he,Yak, said that EL can save the unit if they fell in close combat but his unit was then Swept. While I started out in this vein I have since changed my outlook to say if that is true then they get EL even if they fall to Sweeping Advance. The reason being it would "save" the unit if that were the case. Since the unit is being removed as a casualty then their use of saved and rescued must reference "from dying or being hurt, damaged, or lost" as those are the options of being a casualty and also saved. As such I posted my beliefs as to why they would get EL as they were not prevented "from dying or being hurt, damaged, or lost " as they were removed as a casualty.



This sounds allot like what happens if a Monolith takes a hit that results in it's particle whip is destroyed. A nice friendly Spyder that was next to it, uses it's fabricator claw array it repairs the particle whip, allowing the weapon to be used in the next shooting phase.

The part of the SA rule that requires that the unit/model be destroyed is satisfied - EL essentially repairs the destroyed EL model to a reduced capacity ( 1 Wound ).

Is this what you are saying?

It makes sense from a real world perspective, such that a tank might get hit and turned into battlefield debris, but as long as the main hull is essentially intact, it can be removed from the battlefield, repaired, and eventually placed back in service - it might not be cost effective, but it could be done, and probably easier to understand than the doctor analogy.


Do the rules for Weapon Destroyed say that unless otherwise specified nothing can save the weapon? Does the fabricator array specifically state it can repair a destroyed weapon?

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 yakface wrote:
Fragile wrote:
 yakface wrote:
[

So it doesn't matter if the model is removed as a casualty, if RP, EL, Yarrick's ability to stand back up, the old bionics special rule or even St Celestine's ability can allow it to come back, these are ALL special rules used to save the model (unit) by returning it to play, which is specifically disallowed by the Sweeping Advance rules.


This is an interpretation and very well could be RAI. But nothing 'saves' the unit from SA. SA takes effect and the entire unit is removed as casualties. SA was triggered and took effect. Nothing saved the unit from the lost combat and its effects. The placing of the token is a separate mechanic entirely.


If a Necron Lord on his own is killed by enemy shooting and then returns to play via EL, is this a new unit or the same one?

If it is the same unit, then no logical argument can be made to say that RP/EL isn't a special rule that is saving the unit from taking no further part of the game.

What you are claiming is factually impossible.





The Necron Lord/Overlord is the same unit that was slain, the unit gets a special roll to return to play after it has been removed as a casualty. So based on your own argument EL is a rule that is found in a Codex that will superseded the rule found in the BRB. This rule will allow a unit that is removed from play as a casualty to get a change to come back into play after said event occurred. Or has the fact that Rules in the Codex's superseded or over rule the ones in the BRB been over turned, and now the Special rules in the BRB over rules all Codex Special Rules??

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/29 23:25:40


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I have read all the responses in this thread and in all honesty right now I see a few points of contention. I have done some research. Here is my findings.

Battle seems to be pretty clearly defined. Starting on page 118 it discusses how to prepare for a battle and running all the way through the victory conditions and missions. It is probably one of the most heavily detailed definitions in the book.

Furthermore as is relevant to this thread look at the royal court rules.

"Before the battle, each member of the Royal Court has the option of being split off ..."

The vast majority of players would agree this timed event happens before deployment ^

Everyone seems to agree EL brings the same model back to life it doesn't create a new unit.

SA says very specifically "no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."

If EL brings the same model back the battle is obviously not over for them and this would be covered under the "no save or other special rule" clause.

Many of you have pointed to ATSKNF, but this rule specifically overrides SA. EL does not have a specific override.

SA trumps EL and this does not break either rule as written.

The only unclear area at this point in my mind is does an EL character token that is part of a unit (not an IC). Have to be picked up of the remainder of their unit is swept since the battle is over for them, if they died prior to the sweep).
   
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 Happyjew wrote:
 Chopper Greg wrote:
 Gravmyr wrote:

Except he,Yak, said that EL can save the unit if they fell in close combat but his unit was then Swept. While I started out in this vein I have since changed my outlook to say if that is true then they get EL even if they fall to Sweeping Advance. The reason being it would "save" the unit if that were the case. Since the unit is being removed as a casualty then their use of saved and rescued must reference "from dying or being hurt, damaged, or lost" as those are the options of being a casualty and also saved. As such I posted my beliefs as to why they would get EL as they were not prevented "from dying or being hurt, damaged, or lost " as they were removed as a casualty.



This sounds allot like what happens if a Monolith takes a hit that results in it's particle whip is destroyed. A nice friendly Spyder that was next to it, uses it's fabricator claw array it repairs the particle whip, allowing the weapon to be used in the next shooting phase.

The part of the SA rule that requires that the unit/model be destroyed is satisfied - EL essentially repairs the destroyed EL model to a reduced capacity ( 1 Wound ).

Is this what you are saying?

It makes sense from a real world perspective, such that a tank might get hit and turned into battlefield debris, but as long as the main hull is essentially intact, it can be removed from the battlefield, repaired, and eventually placed back in service - it might not be cost effective, but it could be done, and probably easier to understand than the doctor analogy.


Do the rules for Weapon Destroyed say that unless otherwise specified nothing can save the weapon? Does the fabricator array specifically state it can repair a destroyed weapon?


You get a change to save against a possible pinning hit if you have a cover or a invul save, but to the best of my knowledge there is not way to save against a Wep destroyed. As for the Fab Claw it does let you repair an Immobilized/weapon Destroyed or a hull point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tgf wrote:
I have read all the responses in this thread and in all honesty right now I see a few points of contention. I have done some research. Here is my findings.

Battle seems to be pretty clearly defined. Starting on page 118 it discusses how to prepare for a battle and running all the way through the victory conditions and missions. It is probably one of the most heavily detailed definitions in the book.

Furthermore as is relevant to this thread look at the royal court rules.

"Before the battle, each member of the Royal Court has the option of being split off ..."

The vast majority of players would agree this timed event happens before deployment ^

Everyone seems to agree EL brings the same model back to life it doesn't create a new unit.

SA says very specifically "no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."

If EL brings the same model back the battle is obviously not over for them and this would be covered under the "no save or other special rule" clause.

Many of you have pointed to ATSKNF, but this rule specifically overrides SA. EL does not have a specific override.

SA trumps EL and this does not break either rule as written.

The only unclear area at this point in my mind is does an EL character token that is part of a unit (not an IC). Have to be picked up of the remainder of their unit is swept since the battle is over for them, if they died prior to the sweep).


If you have an lord attached to a unit of Immortals and said unit with said lord loses combat and is caught in a SA, the unit of immortals if completely wiped out and cannot benefit from RP at all as stated in the rules of RP. However, the rules for EL only state that the model with it will get a change to get back up. Also given the fact that the Model with EL is not counted as part of the unit for the purposes of RP, and is counted separately so that you cannot use the one Lord/Overlord/Cryptek that was attached to the unit for RP if the unit was wiped out. Lastly in a VP/KP game I would argue as a Necron player, that the model with EL becomes a separate VP/KP if and only if it cannot get into a new unit.

One more thing after the unit make the SA what does it do? does it make a consolidation move? or is it still counted as being in combat as the unit that was SA was wiped out. If the unit that made the SA is no longer locked in combat at the end of the phase then how can the unit with the EL rule be in combat with it? Meaning that the model with the EL rule is not locked in combat with the unit and can move away from that attacker unit if is passes its roll.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/29 23:42:59


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You have ignored the no special rules clause, you have not explained how EL gets around this. Further more your assertion that a lord or cryptek can join another squad is completely false. There is no convention for this to happen. Any royal court member that is split is forever a part of the squad they are sent to lead, if everyone else in their squad dies and they live no VP or KP has been yielded until that character is dead.
   
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tgf wrote:
You have ignored the no special rules clause, you have not explained how EL gets around this. Further more your assertion that a lord or cryptek can join another squad is completely false. There is no convention for this to happen. Any royal court member that is split is forever a part of the squad they are sent to lead, if everyone else in their squad dies and they live no VP or KP has been yielded until that character is dead.


Please explain how the unit or model is being saved after it is dead and has been removed from the table and play.

As for the EL rule. (Necron Codex, Page 29.) "If a model had joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, and the roll was passed , it must be returned to play with a single Wound, in coherency with that unit as explained in Reanimation Protocols. If the model had not joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, it must be placed within 3" of the counter. In either case, the model must be placed at least 1" away from enemy models. If the Model is placed in coherency with one or more friendly units that is it eligible to join, it automatically joins one of those units (your Choice.)."

The other part of the EL rule is (Necron Codex, Page 29.) "If a Model with this special rule is removed as a Casualty, do not add a Reanimation Protocols counter to its unit. Instead place an Ever-Living counter where the model was removed from play. At the end of the phase, roll for this counter, just as you would for a Reanimation Protocols counter."

Based on what you are saying, if a Lord or Cryptek joins a scoring unit, then even if the rest of the unit is dead the lord counts as scoring because it was attached to a scoring unit. I don't think that flies.

Based on what I have seen so far. the argument is that.

1. No saves can be taken against SA that might rescue the units from Death.
2. EL saves the unit/model from death.
*. You cannot make EL rolls after a successful SA

Is this or is this not the logic?


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No, that's exactly correct - if a Lord was joined to a scoring unit he's always a scoring model - even if all the Warriors around die.

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St. Louis, MO

Yes, crypteks and lords remain scoring if the rest of the unit is wiped out. They are a part of that unit, not ICs. They do not cease being a part of that unit if they are the last one standing any more than your sgt ceases to be part of his unit if he is the only one left.

As for how I play it, everything is gone if the unit gets swept, including counters lost in the combat prior to getting swept.

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I would like to point it out as this

Necron warriors+lord gets charges, lord dies in challenge. Warriors get decimated to 2 men from 12 so they have to roll snake eyes on leadership test. they fail. Now because the lord died in the challenge, but that was before the combat is over. So an EL token is placed. For all intents and purposes, the model is no longer there.

The Warriors have not been able to pass it and get SA'd and the warriors are gone. At the end of the phase the EL is rolled for. Because the Lord is already dead, how can be be SA'd? He is no longer on the table for all intents and purposes.

I see it from both sides, and to be honest, I have been playing it where the lord goes with the unit in a SA, but thats coz my lord doesnt normally die, its the warriors that cause me to lose. I might be poping into a GW shop tomorrow so I can always ask then.

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I would like to point out that the FAQ may even muddy the waters a bit more.

Q: If a unit with one or more reanimation protocols or ever-living
counters fails its Morale check and falls back off the table, what
happens to the counters and the models they represent? (p29)
A: They are lost and no Reanimation Protocols/Ever-living rolls
are made.

If a unit falls back off the table you do not get RP or EL rolls. While this is not SA it does indicate intent of GW to create situations where EL does not get a roll. SA like falling back off the table removes models that were not killed outright. SA also prohibits special rules from allowing the model to continue the battle.

BLADERIKER wrote:
tgf wrote:

Based on what I have seen so far. the argument is that.

1. No saves can be taken against SA that might rescue the units from Death.
2. EL saves the unit/model from death.
*. You cannot make EL rolls after a successful SA

Is this or is this not the logic?



Correct, further more you seem to be ignoring the fact that Crypteks and Lords are not IC's they are not able to join other squads nor leave the squad they have been assigned to, and under the Royal Court rules They are no longer a member of the royal court once split off, meaning they are very much part of the squad they have joined and they are scoring if joining a scoring unit.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/04/30 13:14:09


 
   
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Now let me criticize this argument as this is what was said to be the argument.

1. No saves can be taken against SA that might rescue the units from Death.
2. EL saves the unit/model from death.
*. You cannot make EL rolls after a successful SA

First EL is not a save in way shape or form, it cannot save a model from being destroyed or removed from play as a casualty. So premiss 2 is false as EL does not save the model from death.

So this argument may be valid but, it is not true and thus cannot be used.

So how do we alter this argument to make it true? Please feel free to give it a try.

Here is the argument as it stands for my stance.

1. SA which no saves can be taken against removes all those affected models as casualties at the end of the assault step.
2. As EL does not save the unit from being destroyed and is triggered by the model being destroyed and removed from play as a casualty.
*. EL rolls can be taken against causalities caused by SA.

As for falling back off the table if the unit breaks and the EL model has not already been removed as a casualty then yes there are no RP/EL rolls taken as they left the battle from breaking. Note that the models that run off the board are not removed as casualties and cannot re-enter the battle without a special rule. Given this example, if the EL model was already removed from play as a casualty then it can be argued that the model can make its EL roll as it is allowed to make its roll even if the unit it was attached to fled. Note that this is a specific case where the unit has to fall back off the table.

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If you would stop ignoring the battle is over for them part of SA your entire argument falls apart. Tell me how the battle is over if EL brings them back? Its not a save its a special rule, that is covered by SA. The errors you are falling into are, EL is a save (its not), EL is not a special rule (it is).

As to your last point you have completely failed English. Read the FAQ. EL counters are removed. It could not be clearer.
   
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Consolidate over the token and 3 inches out and solve the problem. If it can't be placed its stays dead.

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nosferatu1001 wrote:
Fragile - erm, have you been following the thread? "Fighting a Battle" tells you what the "battle" comprises. Read it, love it


Again.. page and graph.. Anything less is just your contextual interpretation.

You are directed that, for them, the battle is over. You know that unit you bring back to life, that can now continue the battle? That one? That breaks the SA rule, as their battle is NOT over. Again, there really IS a conflict. Again: WBB occurred a whole TURN later aand was STILL a special rule that saves the unit.


And that was what edition?? Exactly... rules can and do change, whether deliberately or by accident.

Where is your allowance now? Page and graph, or concede.


I love when people say this... You must have conceded already since I still see no page and graph where "battle" is defined.
   
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Blade - yet the UNIT *must* stay destroyed otherwise the unit has NOT completed the SA rule, which requires that the UNITS battle is over

Battle is *defined* as the ENTIRE GAME

Explain how you are breaking this 100% clear directive, and your permission to do so. Page and paragraph


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fragile - sigh. Page 118. Have you read it? It defines "Fighting a Battle". Now I assume you can parse that simple sentence? Yes? Good, then you have agreed Battle, and what it means in 40k, is defined.

If not, then explain why not.

The SA rule has not altered excpet to remove the WBB *example*, for 3 editions. Can you address this point now, rather than hand waving away? At all?

SA rule has not changed
WBB occurred a full turn later (at minimum) than EL / RP rolls
WBB was defined as a special rule that saves the unit from destruction, and so was not allowed

Explain this, without hand waving, and state how this doesnt demolish your timing argument.

.This pops up every couple months, is demolished as a rules argument, and it rears its head again. Despite this being an alarmingly clear rule.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/30 20:46:37


 
   
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Battle is *defined* as the ENTIRE GAME

Can you quote the rule that defines it? Because my book only has that text once, just as a title.
And titles mean nothing when we are talking about rules.

Otherwise we just have to assume it's some sort of fluff.
   
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Kangodo wrote:
Battle is *defined* as the ENTIRE GAME

Can you quote the rule that defines it? Because my book only has that text once, just as a title.
And titles mean nothing when we are talking about rules.

Otherwise we just have to assume it's some sort of fluff.

So the Shooting Phase isn't defined?
And neither is the Movement Phase.
Or Special Rules - gosh.

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rigeld2 wrote:
So the Shooting Phase isn't defined?
And neither is the Movement Phase.
Or Special Rules - gosh.

"The Shooting Phase" is the title of a part of the rules that explains what the shooting phase is.
A quick scan of the pages gives at least 5 times the reference "shooting phase", telling us exactly what the shooting phase is.
But the part "Fighting a Battle" doesn't even reference once to a battle.

And that has been said multiple times already, why are you ignoring that?
   
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Page 118 "points value of the two battling armies"
Page 118 "rest of the terrain for the battle"
Page 120 "Next, the players must set up terrain for the battle."
Page 120 "As you set up the scenery for your battle"

Should I keep looking, or is that enough to prove your assertion "doesn't even reference once to a battle" incorrect?

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So what I am seeing is that SA has precedence over EL and that the SA cannot be broken in anyway unless a rule lets it.

With that Said, I would like point this out. (Pg 7, BRB, Bottom Right.) "On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex takes precedence."

Just so there is no confusion about this

(Pg 27, BRB, Top Left.) "We assume that the already demoralised foe is comprehensively scattered, ripped apart or otherwise sent packing, so demoralised that they won't return; Its members are left dead, wounded and captured, or at best, fleeing and hiding. The Destroyed unit is immediately removed as casualties. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."

This is found under the title "Necron Special Rules" Sub-Heading "Ever-living" (Pg 29, Necron Codex, Top right.) "If a model with this special rule is removed as a casualty, do not add a Reanimation Protocol counter to its unit. Instead place an Ever-living counter where the model was removed from play . At the end of the phase, roll for this counter, just as you would for a Reanimation Protocols counter."

Furthermore, (Pg 29, Necron Codex, Left side.) "If a Model with the Reanimation Protocols rule is removed as a casualty , there is a chance that it will self-repair and return to play at the end of the current phase. Whenever a unit takes one or more casualties, place counters or other suitable markers next to the unit to remind you how many casualties were taken. if the unit makes a fall back move, remove any counters from it - any damaged Necrons are left behind and self-destruct rather than risk capture by the enemy. - Reanimation Protocols rolls cannot be attempted if the unit has been destroyed - once the last model has been removed as a Casualty, remove all your counters. Note that Characters do not count as part of the unit for the purposes of Reanimation Protocols."

As it stands, the BRB clearly states that in the case of a rule issue like this one, the Codex Special Rule takes Precedence over all the rules in the BRB. EL IS "Otherwise Specified" in the Necron Codex to let a model that is removed as a Casualty return to play after being removed.

As for the argument for what a Lord/Cryptek counts as when attached to another unit, that is not the issue here. The Issue is, can EL rolls be made after a SA is made. Well Codex trumps BRB so, EL gets its rolls. With the one exception already stated in the FAQ regarding falling back off the table.


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EL doesn't trump SA because it does not conflict with SA, you simply do not understand the rules as written.

SA says no special rules. EL is a special rule. The end, its that simple. That is not a conflict. A conflict would be like ATSKNF, and in that case Pg 7 does apply.

ATSKNF says ignores SA, SA says ignores special rules. Specific vs. General or in the case of some books Codex vs. BRB. There is no conflict between SA and EL, SA forbids EL. EL does not specifically conflict with SA. The end.
   
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The Hive Mind





BLADERIKER wrote:
A lot of good (but irrelevant) research

I've explained why you're 100% incorrect at least once now.
SA says die.
EL says no - if it ended here the codex would win.
SA says die with no special rules.

Is EL a special rule?

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Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot





Los Angeles, CA

EL doesn't say no to death. You do die, and then you come back.

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Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Thokt wrote:
EL doesn't say no to death. You do die, and then you come back.

Which of course does not matter if you are caught in a SA, as for that unit the battle is over.

If " You do die, and then you come back" is the battle over?

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Decrepit Dakkanaut




Thokt wrote:
EL doesn't say no to death. You do die, and then you come back.

Meaning your battle isnt over, despite the rule stating otherwise. WHich rule are you now breaking?

Kangodo - seriously, "not once". Is that like "the majority of people play"....?
   
 
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