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 DeathReaper wrote:
And still a battle brother, therefore can not embark.

Unless you are saying he is no longer a battle brother, but there needs to be some rules that say that, there have not been any thus far.

What is a "Battle Brother"?

A Friendly Unit chosen from the Ally Matrix.

Does the(continuing Tigerius and PIS unit example) PIS unit contain a Friendly Unit chosen from the Ally Matrix?

No, because ICs joined to a Unit are not units themselves; they count as part of that unit for all rules purposes, though they still follows the rules for characters.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
He has all of his special rules, stats, wargear, and unit type, but is for all rules purposes a member of the Guard Platoon infantry squad.

This is the same as a Lord Commissar joined to a Platoon Infantry Squad; he retains his Special rules, Unit Type, Stats, and Wargear , but is for all rules purposes a member of the Platoon Infantry Squad

Is that a Yes or No, it seems as if you are purposely trying to answer but not answer the question?
I am not asking about his rules/stats or membership status in the unit he joined.

I am asking, is Tigurius still a Space Marine?

Yes.

But he is no longer a "battle Brother".

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

No, because ICs joined to a Unit are not units themselves; they count as part of that unit for all rules purposes, though they still follows the rules for characters.

Where in the BRB is this defined?
The IC rules do not say that the IC is no longer a unit itself.
Second part of your statement is in the IC rules "..they count as part of that unit for all rules purposes, though they still follows the rules for characters" but they do not state the first part.
Where does it say that unit(IC) is no longer a unit, when it joins another unit?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Yes.

But he is no longer a "battle Brother".

If he is Still a Space Marine, by definition, he is a Battle Brother.

I will pull a Nos on you(though it pains me to do so)

State the rules, page and para, in the BRB that state you loose BB status "or concede".

LOL (Fyi- not serious about the concede part)

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And still a battle brother, therefore can not embark.

Unless you are saying he is no longer a battle brother, but there needs to be some rules that say that, there have not been any thus far.

What is a "Battle Brother"?

A Friendly Unit chosen from the Ally Matrix.

Does the(continuing Tigerius and PIS unit example) PIS unit contain a Friendly Unit chosen from the Ally Matrix?

No, because ICs joined to a Unit are not units themselves; they count as part of that unit for all rules purposes, though they still follows the rules for characters.

The rules on page 112 state:

"Battle Brothers are treated as 'friendly units' from all points of view. This means, for example, that Battle Brothers: Can be joined by allied Independent Characters...However, note that not even Battle Brothers can embark in allied transport vehicles."

So they can join allied units, but "not even Battle Brothers can embark in allied transport vehicles."

This is the restriction. There needs to be a specific rule that over rides this specific restriction.

Page and Graph please.

And "Battle Brothers" as defined by the First sentence in this paragraph(the subject of this sentence) is a "Friendly Unit" right?

So the restriction is on a Battle Brother, Which is chosen from The Allied Matrix(defining the relations between Codices)on page 113, and then defined as a "Friendly Unit", First sentence under second paragraph of "Battle Brothers" on page 112.

So the Allied choice of a friendly unit cannot get in each others transports.

When you have an IC that joins a unit that ic "Counts as"(Which means "Considered", which means "Is{ for defined purposes"}) a member of the unit joined for all rules purposes.

Therefore a/an (IC from army A) is a (member of the joined unit B) for all rules purposes, and therefore is never a "Battle Brother(as defined as a friendly unit from an allied army as per the Matrix on page 113 of the BRB)

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
And "Battle Brothers" as defined by the First sentence in this paragraph(the subject of this sentence) is a "Friendly Unit" right?

So the restriction is on a Battle Brother, Which is chosen from The Allied Matrix(defining the relations between Codices)on page 113, and then defined as a "Friendly Unit", First sentence under second paragraph of "Battle Brothers" on page 112.

So the Allied choice of a friendly unit cannot get in each others transports.

When you have an IC that joins a unit that ic "Counts as"(Which means "Considered", which means "Is{ for defined purposes"}) a member of the unit joined for all rules purposes.

Therefore a/an (IC from army A) is a (member of the joined unit B) for all rules purposes, and therefore is never a "Battle Brother(as defined as a friendly unit from an allied army as per the Matrix on page 113 of the BRB)

At this point I would just say go for it dude. Have fun in your friendly games and good luck in your tournaments but don't be too surprised when the TOs rule against you.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
And "Battle Brothers" as defined by the First sentence in this paragraph(the subject of this sentence) is a "Friendly Unit" right?

So the restriction is on a Battle Brother, Which is chosen from The Allied Matrix(defining the relations between Codices)on page 113, and then defined as a "Friendly Unit", First sentence under second paragraph of "Battle Brothers" on page 112.

So the Allied choice of a friendly unit cannot get in each others transports.

When you have an IC that joins a unit that ic "Counts as"(Which means "Considered", which means "Is{ for defined purposes"}) a member of the unit joined for all rules purposes.

Therefore a/an (IC from army A) is a (member of the joined unit B) for all rules purposes, and therefore is never a "Battle Brother(as defined as a friendly unit from an allied army as per the Matrix on page 113 of the BRB)

Except that it is not "for all rules purposes" as you have correctly pointed out. You noted that the IC keeps his stats line, his war gear etc.
If it were for " for all rules purposes" the by rule, Tigurius would have to use the Guardman stats, war gear and so on while keeping his Special Rules. Because if you read the Codex, by Rule a member of a Guardsman platoon has to use the wargear, stats and so on detailed the Guardsman Army List entry. See Army List Entries, sections of Unit Profile, Unit Type, Wargear on page 89 of the IG Codex.

Either that or we have all been playing IC's wrong, all this time.

Edit: Spelling

Yeah 40k-noob, I pointed that out last page, but either he missed it or didn't bother to address this rather large hole in his logic...

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
So the Allied choice of a friendly unit cannot get in each others transports.

And an allied IC is always a battle brother as nothing takes away the battle brother status.

There needs to be a specific rule that over rides the specific restriction.

There is no such rule that specifies that allied IC's can ride in each others transports, therefore they can not.

40k-noob wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
And "Battle Brothers" as defined by the First sentence in this paragraph(the subject of this sentence) is a "Friendly Unit" right?

So the restriction is on a Battle Brother, Which is chosen from The Allied Matrix(defining the relations between Codices)on page 113, and then defined as a "Friendly Unit", First sentence under second paragraph of "Battle Brothers" on page 112.

So the Allied choice of a friendly unit cannot get in each others transports.

When you have an IC that joins a unit that ic "Counts as"(Which means "Considered", which means "Is{ for defined purposes"}) a member of the unit joined for all rules purposes.

Therefore a/an (IC from army A) is a (member of the joined unit B) for all rules purposes, and therefore is never a "Battle Brother(as defined as a friendly unit from an allied army as per the Matrix on page 113 of the BRB)

Except that it is not "for all rules purposes" as you have correctly pointed out. You noted that the IC keeps his stats line, his war gear etc.
If it were for " for all rules purposes" the by rule, Tigurius would have to use the Guardman stats, war gear and so on while keeping his Special Rules. Because if you read the Codex, by Rule a member of a Guardsman platoon has to use the wargear, stats and so on detailed the Guardsman Army List entry. See Army List Entries, sections of Unit Profile, Unit Type, Wargear on page 89 of the IG Codex.

Either that or we have all been playing IC's wrong, all this time.

Edit: Spelling

Either "by Rule" you are saying that the Sgt, Heavy and Special Weapon(or equivalent) in every army is a waste of points, as they are the basic troopers of their unit and therefore have the basic troopers statline, wargear, and Special rules. This goes the same for all IC that join those units?

Because I said nothing of the sort, a model is a model; A model within a unit is a model within a unit no matter where that model started at the beginning of the game. The model still has the rules, stats, and wargear that the model had before joining the unit, but is for all rules purposes a part of that unit while attached(per the IC rules). This means that an Archon is a member of the Guardian Unit joined, just the same as a Farseer is a Member of the guardian unit joined. In both cases you have a guardian unit joined by an IC and remains a Guardian Unit and can be effected or affected in the same manner as a Guardian unit without the attached IC.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
So the Allied choice of a friendly unit cannot get in each others transports.

And an allied IC is always a battle brother as nothing takes away the battle brother status.

There needs to be a specific rule that over rides the specific restriction.

There is no such rule that specifies that allied IC's can ride in each others transports, therefore they can not.

No an Allied IC is only a "battle Brother" when he meets the definition of "battle brother" which is a "frienldy unit" chosen under the grander entry of "Allies".

Is an IC(allied or not) a "Friendly Unit"?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

And an allied IC is always a battle brother as nothing takes away the battle brother status.

There needs to be a specific rule that over rides the specific restriction.

There is no such rule that specifies that allied IC's can ride in each others transports, therefore they can not.

No an Allied IC is only a "battle Brother" when he meets the definition of "battle brother" which is a "frienldy unit" chosen under the grander entry of "Allies".

Is an IC(allied or not) a "Friendly Unit"?

No, Battle brothers are described on the chart.

an Allied IC from a BB force is always a Battle Brother.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
And "Battle Brothers" as defined by the First sentence in this paragraph(the subject of this sentence) is a "Friendly Unit" right?

So the restriction is on a Battle Brother, Which is chosen from The Allied Matrix(defining the relations between Codices)on page 113, and then defined as a "Friendly Unit", First sentence under second paragraph of "Battle Brothers" on page 112.

So the Allied choice of a friendly unit cannot get in each others transports.

When you have an IC that joins a unit that ic "Counts as"(Which means "Considered", which means "Is{ for defined purposes"}) a member of the unit joined for all rules purposes.

Therefore a/an (IC from army A) is a (member of the joined unit B) for all rules purposes, and therefore is never a "Battle Brother(as defined as a friendly unit from an allied army as per the Matrix on page 113 of the BRB)

Except that it is not "for all rules purposes" as you have correctly pointed out. You noted that the IC keeps his stats line, his war gear etc.
If it were for " for all rules purposes" the by rule, Tigurius would have to use the Guardman stats, war gear and so on while keeping his Special Rules. Because if you read the Codex, by Rule a member of a Guardsman platoon has to use the wargear, stats and so on detailed the Guardsman Army List entry. See Army List Entries, sections of Unit Profile, Unit Type, Wargear on page 89 of the IG Codex.

Either that or we have all been playing IC's wrong, all this time.

Edit: Spelling

Either "by Rule" you are saying that the Sgt, Heavy and Special Weapon(or equivalent) in every army is a waste of points, as they are the basic troopers of their unit and therefore have the basic troopers statline, wargear, and Special rules. This goes the same for all IC that join those units?

Because I said nothing of the sort, a model is a model; A model within a unit is a model within a unit no matter where that model started at the beginning of the game. The model still has the rules, stats, and wargear that the model had before joining the unit, but is for all rules purposes a part of that unit while attached(per the IC rules). This means that an Archon is a member of the Guardian Unit joined, just the same as a Farseer is a Member of the guardian unit joined. In both cases you have a guardian unit joined by an IC and remains a Guardian Unit and can be effected or affected in the same manner as a Guardian unit without the attached IC.

You are contradicting yourself Kel.

The rules for a Platoon Squad state that its members use XYZ stats and ABC wargear, does an IC that joins this squad have to follow the rules for this squad?
To put it another way, is an IC a member of that squad "for all rules purposes" or not?

Also please stop trying to deflect the debate to non IC units/models, they have no bearing on the subject of this thread, which by the way you started. If you want to discuss unit upgrades, start a new thread.

A platoon squad has different rules for each model in the squad, or does the Heavy Weapons team in the PIS only have the Lasgun, Flak armour, CCW, and and Frag Grenade that the rest of the unit has? What about the Special weapon, does he exchange his lasgun like the unit entry says or does he get the weapon he paid for?

Members of a unit retain their Unit type, Special rules, Stats , and Wargear.

Unit types simply add their own abilities and special rules to the base Infantry Rules(The most basic rules per BRB Page 44).

If you want to claim otherwise, then all ICs attaching to an infantry unit can only move, shoot and assault in the exact same manner as the Infantry unit they have joined(Excepting that all those rules are based on Model unit type, as is Drones in FW squads and Etc)

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
A platoon squad has different rules for each model in the squad, or does the Heavy Weapons team in the PIS only have the Lasgun, Flak armour, CCW, and and Frag Grenade that the rest of the unit has? What about the Special weapon, does he exchange his lasgun like the unit entry says or does he get the weapon he paid for?

Members of a unit retain their Unit type, Special rules, Stats , and Wargear.

Unit types simply add their own abilities and special rules to the base Infantry Rules(The most basic rules per BRB Page 44).

Again, you are attempting to deflect the debate outside of the topic you started.

This is not about unit upgrades, rules for which are included in the codex entries.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
. Can a guardsman unit embark on a Chimera: yes, yes it can.

More precisely: A guardsman unit comprised entirely of models from Codex: Imperial Guard can embark on a Chimera from Codex: Imperial Guard.

Those Guardsmen could not embark on a Chimera from Codex: Grey Knights. Nor can they embark if the unit includes Battle Brothers, since Battle Brothers may not embark in allied transports.

 insaniak wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
. Can a guardsman unit embark on a Chimera: yes, yes it can.

More precisely: A guardsman unit comprised entirely of models from Codex: Imperial Guard can embark on a Chimera from Codex: Imperial Guard.

As I have shown, that is not at all what the rules say.

In no way is an IC attached to a Unit a unit in and of itself, and Battle brothers is defined as a "Friendly Unit" and is a rule attached to a unit taken as or in relation to Allies

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
In no way is an IC attached to a Unit a unit in and of itself

Except in some situations where it is (such as PfP, secondary objectives...).

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

In no way is an IC attached to a Unit a unit in and of itself

An exactly where are you getting that from? What rule or rule say that?

 Happyjew wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
In no way is an IC attached to a Unit a unit in and of itself

Except in some situations where it is (such as PfP, secondary objectives...).

Which are specifically noted in the FAQ for those rules or within the rules themselves.

A Techmarine purchased as crew for the Thunderfire cannon is the same PfP token as the cannon unless the cannon is destroyed in an entirely different phase/ Shooting attack as the Tech marine. This is a portion of the PfP special rules as clarified by the FAQ, not a part of the IC nor basic Rules.

A clarification or addition to a primary rule does not change the primary rule in all circumstances, only those that are defined within the parameters of that secondary rule(And/or its FAQs). Slaying of the warlord is the destruction of an individual model(defined under "warlord), First blood only cares that a Unit has been removed, should an IC(Same Faction or BB) be the only model left after attacks on a particular unit, that unit is destroyed(the IC is no longer attached to the unit and therefore is a unit of himself+ once again), and Finally under Linebacker you must have at least 1 model from the scoring unit("Unit" from the Troops selection of either army in BBs) within the enemy deployment Zone for the additional VP, if the Troops unit is dead with only an IC left he reverts back to a unit as purchased(most likely HQ, but could be any other) this is clear in the IC rules; If the Scoring unit is still allive and the IC is attached and only the IC is within the enemy DZ then the extra VP still goes for Linebreaker(A member of a scoring unit is in the DZ).

40k Noob, Page 3 of the BRB, and common sense; or can I shoot at your Farseer in a Guardian unit?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
In no way is an IC attached to a Unit a unit in and of itself

Except in some situations where it is (such as PfP, secondary objectives...).

40k Noob, Page 3 of the BRB, and common sense; or can I shoot at your Farseer in a Guardian unit?

You can actually with Precision Shot but that is not the point.

Page 3 you say? Do you mean this?

BRB page 3 - Units wrote:
Warriors tend to band together to fight in squads, teams, sections or similarly named groups - individuals do not normally go wandering off on their own for obvious reasons !
In Warhammer 40,000, we represent this by grouping models together into units. A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war engine or a rampaging monster, is also considered to be a unit in its own right."

That doesn't say what you claim it says. If anything it emphasizes that IC's are units themselves.

Also common sense isn't a rulebook, so lets leave that out.

If all ICs are units in and of themselves when attached to another Unit, then the ICs can be targeted individually(by targeting the IC unit) in shooting.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
I see this as wishlisting. I don't have the BRB within front of my, but you can't share transports. BB cannot ride in their allies transports. You're IC, regardless if attached to a unit, is still a BB. He's not getting in that sweet ride.

Or more simply put, if you have to pick the grammar apart, you're probably going to far. I see 40k as a permissive rules set. Unless it says you can, assume you cannot.

I had to explain the grammar, not pick it apart; my initial reading was that only Battle brother units could not embark.

But logically speaking, from a model's perspective,if you are a guardsman and can't be in a vehicle with a space marine, then why would you allow eldar/CSM/necrons into your chimera? If you can't even trust battle-brothers that much, then why would you trust any other race into your vehicles? From a ruleset, it would be incredibly OP if your stormraven had Sammael and some of his buddies deep strike out of it, or something like that (bikes are Very Bulky, doesn't state in the Stormraven's rules that you can't put bikes inside.)

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
If all ICs are units in and of themselves when attached to another Unit, then the ICs can be targeted individually(by targeting the IC unit) in shooting.

Not necessarily. There is evidence to show that they both are and aren't for certain purposes. Hence the Deathmark ruling.

 Timmy149 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
I see this as wishlisting. I don't have the BRB within front of my, but you can't share transports. BB cannot ride in their allies transports. You're IC, regardless if attached to a unit, is still a BB. He's not getting in that sweet ride.

Or more simply put, if you have to pick the grammar apart, you're probably going to far. I see 40k as a permissive rules set. Unless it says you can, assume you cannot.

I had to explain the grammar, not pick it apart; my initial reading was that only Battle brother units could not embark.

But logically speaking, from a model's perspective,if you are a guardsman and can't be in a vehicle with a space marine, then why would you allow eldar/CSM/necrons into your chimera? If you can't even trust battle-brothers that much, then why would you trust any other race into your vehicles? From a ruleset, it would be incredibly OP if your stormraven had Sammael and some of his buddies deep strike out of it, or something like that (bikes are Very Bulky, doesn't state in the Stormraven's rules that you can't put bikes inside.)

Transport rules state only infantry(and not jump nor jet pack infantry) may embark in transports, and then the stormraven specifically allow jump infantry(and dreads); so no you could never have samael drop from a stormraven because there is never any permission for him to be embarked.

Mannahnin; that is a specific allowance within an FAQ for a specific ability this does not set a precedence for the IC being a nit within a unit(because if it did it would allow shooting attacks to also be directed only on ic unit as well, which is what the extension of this FAQ would mean "If he is a separate unit that can be targeted for HFHS then he is a separate unit for shooting as well")

I think the Deathmark FAQ is indicative that ICs are not always and for all rule purposes treated as the same as the unit they're attached to. As a general rule they are, but there are functions for which they do not. For example, if an IC with a Jump Pack or Bike is attached to an Infantry unit, they won't be able to embark on a Rhino. He doesn't take on ALL of their properties. IMO, in the same way that he remains his own unit type, he also remains a Battle Brother. Because the rules for allies do not explicitly say that he stops counting as one when attached to an allied unit.

Again, at BEST it's ambiguous, and I really think that if YOU think it's at all ambiguous, good sportsmanship and best practices in rules interpretation should incline you to err on the side of caution here.

Unit type is a part of the model(not the state of the unit as a whole)

This is further presented in the tau empire codex where you have jet pack infantry model that can be attached to standard infantry model units.

And once again I never said the IC takes on all, nor even any of the units properties, only that the IC becomes a member of the unit for all rules purposes.

He doesn't take on their properties or their rules. He retains his own rules. One of which may be being Unit Type: Bike. Another is being a Space Marine (for example, if he gets into a challenge with an enemy model who has Preferred Enemy: Space Marines). A third is that he is a Battle Brother. A trusted ally of the units in the allied detachment. I disagree with you that the context leads necessarily to the conclusion that Battle Brothers only refers to units. I maintain that it refers to everything you selected in the allied detachment.

Which ignores the definition in the BRB.

Which is like saying that a Bastion is not a building(as it is defined).



Edited to change fortification to building

Not at all. You are making an interpretation based on an inference. I'm making a different, more restrictive, interpretation, both because I believe it's the intent, and because I don't want to risk claiming an unintended advantage.