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How is: "Battle brothers are treated as 'Friendly units' from all points of view." an inference, or anything other than a stated definition of what a "Battle Brother" is?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
If all ICs are units in and of themselves when attached to another Unit, then the ICs can be targeted individually(by targeting the IC unit) in shooting.

No, because the unit (IC) is "attached" to the other unit, and there are rules for such cases.

There is nothing in the rules that state what you claimed, that a IC unit stops being a unit in and of itself when it joins another unit.

That said, the IC unit is still a unit of its Army and thus will always be a Battle Brother.

I have contacted the FAQ teams based on whether or not this is permitted. I hope for a reply.

40k-noob wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
If all ICs are units in and of themselves when attached to another Unit, then the ICs can be targeted individually(by targeting the IC unit) in shooting.

No, because the unit (IC) is "attached" to the other unit, and there are rules for such cases.

There is nothing in the rules that state what you claimed, that a IC unit stops being a unit in and of itself when it joins another unit.

That said, the IC unit is still a unit of its Army and thus will always be a Battle Brother.

Oh, What are the rules that state an IC attached to a Unit cannot be targeted as his own individual unit?

Because I am pretty sure the shooting rules tell you that your unit can target any other unit that they have LOS to; so If I have LOS to your Ic within your Unit, and your IC is still a separate unit within the unit; then I can target the IC specifically as there is an allowance and absolutely no restriction against it.

The only rule that comes close is the rule that tells you the IC counts as a member of the unit for all rules purposes and the Unit definition on page 3 the defines units as groups of models that have banded together. And when it mentions characters it states that the exception are "Lone Characters" not Independent characters.

So you have an IC(which is not necessarily a single model unit to begin with), which uses the IC rules to join another unit, in joining that unit the IC bands together with those models(and the IC rules state he counts as a member of the unit for all rules purposes) making the 1 unit.

So Again: Either the IC becomes a member of the unit, and ceases being a unit on its own; or the IC can be targeted separately with shooting attacks.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
If all ICs are units in and of themselves when attached to another Unit, then the ICs can be targeted individually(by targeting the IC unit) in shooting.

No, because the unit (IC) is "attached" to the other unit, and there are rules for such cases.

There is nothing in the rules that state what you claimed, that a IC unit stops being a unit in and of itself when it joins another unit.

That said, the IC unit is still a unit of its Army and thus will always be a Battle Brother.

Oh, What are the rules that state an IC attached to a Unit cannot be targeted as his own individual unit?

Because I am pretty sure the shooting rules tell you that your unit can target any other unit that they have LOS to; so If I have LOS to your Ic within your Unit, and your IC is still a separate unit within the unit; then I can target the IC specifically as there is an allowance and absolutely no restriction against it.

The only rule that comes close is the rule that tells you the IC counts as a member of the unit for all rules purposes and the Unit definition on page 3 the defines units as groups of models that have banded together. And when it mentions characters it states that the exception are "Lone Characters" not Independent characters.

So you have an IC(which is not necessarily a single model unit to begin with), which uses the IC rules to join another unit, in joining that unit the IC bands together with those models(and the IC rules state he counts as a member of the unit for all rules purposes) making the 1 unit.

So Again: Either the IC becomes a member of the unit, and ceases being a unit on its own; or the IC can be targeted separately with shooting attacks.

Why you have pointed those rules out quite clearly. The IC rules state that the attached IC counts as a member of the unit he joined. Since he is a member of that unit you have to target his unit (joined).

However you have failed to point out any rules that state a unit that joins another unit is no longer a unit itself. The "Units" Say no such thing, they emphasize that a unit can be many models or a single model. That section also states that a unit "usually" consists of many models so it leaves the option of a unit being made up of something other than just "models" say for example multiple "units" banding together ala the IC rules.

And if the IC remains a unit in and of himself then he is targetable by targeting the IC unit.

It goes like this:

You have a SM Tac squad and join a chaplain to it.

Either the chaplain ceases being a unit on his own, or my Guardsman squad can choose to shoot the Chaplain unit within the Tac squad

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
And if the IC remains a unit in and of himself then he is targetable by targeting the IC unit.

It goes like this:

You have a SM Tac squad and join a chaplain to it.

Either the chaplain ceases being a unit on his own, or my Guardsman squad can choose to shoot the Chaplain unit within the Tac squad

While the answer to this isn't clearly defined in the book, this argument, in my opinion, is logical. The targetting rules allow you to target any unit in LoS. If the IC is still considered a unit in it's own right, no need to target the unit that he joined in order to target the IC.

This, of course, isn't the case because it says an IC joining a unit becomes a member of that unit for all rules purposes, but it does support the position that an allied IC joining a battlebrother unit should then be able to embark on said unit's dedicated transport. (I AM biased towards this interpretation anyhow, as I personally think it's completely rediculous that battle brothers are willing to fight and die for one another, but won't give a brotha a ride in their dune buggy)

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
And if the IC remains a unit in and of himself then he is targetable by targeting the IC unit.

It goes like this:

You have a SM Tac squad and join a chaplain to it.

Either the chaplain ceases being a unit on his own, or my Guardsman squad can choose to shoot the Chaplain unit within the Tac squad

So now you are arguing that the IC rules do not do what they say they do. What you yourself have said they do!!

Wonderful!!

What is that old saying again? Oh yeah, if it is not in the rule book, you cant do it.
You have no rule that says a unit (IC) stops being a unit, when it joins another unit. So guess what?

40k-noob wrote:
What is that old saying again? Oh yeah, if it is not in the rule book, you cant do it.
You have no rule that says a unit (IC) stops being a unit, when it joins another unit. So guess what?

So what stops the IC unit from being targeted?
It's your assertion that it never stop existing and that there are no issues that could possibly arise from the IC unit still existing and the IC being treated as a member of the parent unit.

I'm not targeting the IC model (the model that is a member of the parent unit). I'm targeting the IC unit as I'm given permission to by the targeting rules.
Deny the permission.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
What is that old saying again? Oh yeah, if it is not in the rule book, you cant do it.
You have no rule that says a unit (IC) stops being a unit, when it joins another unit. So guess what?

So what stops the IC unit from being targeted?
It's your assertion that it never stop existing and that there are no issues that could possibly arise from the IC unit still existing and the IC being treated as a member of the parent unit.

I'm not targeting the IC model (the model that is a member of the parent unit). I'm targeting the IC unit as I'm given permission to by the targeting rules.
Deny the permission.

It's so rare that I agree with you, this made me smile.

40k-noob wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
And if the IC remains a unit in and of himself then he is targetable by targeting the IC unit.

It goes like this:

You have a SM Tac squad and join a chaplain to it.

Either the chaplain ceases being a unit on his own, or my Guardsman squad can choose to shoot the Chaplain unit within the Tac squad

So now you are arguing that the IC rules do not do what they say they do. What you yourself have said they do!!

Wonderful!!

What is that old saying again? Oh yeah, if it is not in the rule book, you cant do it.
You have no rule that says a unit (IC) stops being a unit, when it joins another unit. So guess what?

You are the one that are arguing the IC rules do not do what they say they do(Make the IC part of the unit and therefore not his own unit).

What I did was illustrate your fallacy; The rulebook says the firing unit targets another unit. If the IC within the unit is still a unit itself then it is a valid target. That is what is in the rulebook.

What is not in the rulebook is any statement that the IC "Unit" cannot be targeted, you would be making that up all by yourself.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
And if the IC remains a unit in and of himself then he is targetable by targeting the IC unit.

It goes like this:

You have a SM Tac squad and join a chaplain to it.

Either the chaplain ceases being a unit on his own, or my Guardsman squad can choose to shoot the Chaplain unit within the Tac squad

So now you are arguing that the IC rules do not do what they say they do. What you yourself have said they do!!

Wonderful!!

What is that old saying again? Oh yeah, if it is not in the rule book, you cant do it.
You have no rule that says a unit (IC) stops being a unit, when it joins another unit. So guess what?

You are the one that are arguing the IC rules do not do what they say they do(Make the IC part of the unit and therefore not his own unit).

What I did was illustrate your fallacy; The rulebook says the firing unit targets another unit. If the IC within the unit is still a unit itself then it is a valid target. That is what is in the rulebook.

What is not in the rulebook is any statement that the IC "Unit" cannot be targeted, you would be making that up all by yourself.

You have illustrated nothing.

That is the problem with your assertion. You have been the one to claim something that is not in the Rule Book.

"...what they say they do(Make the IC part of the unit and therefore not his own unit)." This is no where in the rules!!!!!!

You have not shown any where in a Codex nor the BRB where this is stated.

I can point you to any codex, and show you any IC entry and it will show that IC as a unit. Show us the rule that states, "a unit that joins another unit, is no longer a unit itself."
You can't can you? Otherwise you would have done so by now.

You are once again "reading between the lines" as you stated in that other thread.
You are making an inference about a rule and in doing so, you are making up a rule that does not exist.

And I have explained that if "Counting a member of the joined unit for all rules purposes" does not stop the IC from being his own unit, then the IC can be targeted separately.

So to have it your way the IC can always be targeted individually.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
What is that old saying again? Oh yeah, if it is not in the rule book, you cant do it.
You have no rule that says a unit (IC) stops being a unit, when it joins another unit. So guess what?

So what stops the IC unit from being targeted?
It's your assertion that it never stop existing and that there are no issues that could possibly arise from the IC unit still existing and the IC being treated as a member of the parent unit.

I'm not targeting the IC model (the model that is a member of the parent unit). I'm targeting the IC unit as I'm given permission to by the targeting rules.
Deny the permission.

There is no point in addressing this. Kel has been trying to deflect/derail the debate since he can't prove his assertion.

Shooting attacks, heavy weapons team, Sgt in a squad are all attempts by Kel to deflect/derail the debate.

This debate is about IC's, Units, Battle Brother and Transports and their respective rules.

You are the one that has been trying to derail the debate, but instead you have been helping me prove my point(thank you).

And the Sgt, and HWT was illustrating that being a member of a unit does not change the model as you tried to claim I was saying.

So now I ask you 2 simple questions:

Can I target the Chaplain unit attached to the Tactical squad?

If not, Why not?

40k-noob wrote:

This debate is about IC's, Units, Battle Brother and Transports and their respective rules.

But the context of a particular ruling, and what effects it would have on the rest of the rules is relevant. You can't posit that an IC is a unit in it's own right at all times, except when it's inconvenient to your position(unless of course, a rule clearly says that).


EDIT: grammar

A part of me feels this may be the most epic troll of the month.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

This debate is about IC's, Units, Battle Brother and Transports and their respective rules.

But the context of a particular ruling, and what effects it would have on the rest of the rules is relevant. You can't posit that an IC is a unit in it's own right at all times, except when it's inconvenient to your position(unless of course, a rule clearly says that).


EDIT: grammar

I have and continue to "posit" that an IC is a unit.
That the IC has a special rule that allows it to join other units. (a unit within a unit)
That the IC is and will always be a unit of its Army and thus always a Battle Brother and can never board and Allied transport.
I have and continue to say that there is nor rule in the BRB or in any codex that states "a unit that joins another unit, is no longer a unit itself."

Which is exactly my point that the "IC unit" can be separately targeted.

That, or you read the rule that has the IC model(that is a Model with the IC special rule) count as part of the Unit he joins for all rules purposes and realize that one of those purposes is to make the IC model and Unit joined only 1 unit.

You cannot have a Unit within a unit without both units being individually targetable by any rules that allow the targeting of "Units".

So again: Can I target your Chaplin attached to the Tactical squad or not?

And: If I cannot target the Chaplain, where are the rules that say I cannot; because the shooting rules say that I can.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

That, or you read the rule that has the IC model(that is a Model with the IC special rule) count as part of the Unit he joins for all rules purposes and realize that one of those purposes is to make the IC model and Unit joined only 1 unit.

You cannot have a Unit within a unit without both units being individually targetable by any rules that allow the targeting of "Units".

Again this is you "reading between the lines" and making up rules.

The IC rules do not "model" they say "Independent Character."

"Independent Character" is a special rule possessed by a "Model".

Independent Character is not a Unit, it is a Special rule.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
What is that old saying again? Oh yeah, if it is not in the rule book, you cant do it.
You have no rule that says a unit (IC) stops being a unit, when it joins another unit. So guess what?

So what stops the IC unit from being targeted?
It's your assertion that it never stop existing and that there are no issues that could possibly arise from the IC unit still existing and the IC being treated as a member of the parent unit.

I'm not targeting the IC model (the model that is a member of the parent unit). I'm targeting the IC unit as I'm given permission to by the targeting rules.
Deny the permission.

There is no point in addressing this. Kel has been trying to deflect/derail the debate since he can't prove his assertion.

Shooting attacks, heavy weapons team, Sgt in a squad are all attempts by Kel to deflect/derail the debate.

This debate is about IC's, Units, Battle Brother and Transports and their respective rules.

This tangent is relevant to the debate. Your refusal to address it doesn't make it any less relevant.

The way I see it, Kel is trying to prove his point in the face of other people telling him otherwise.

 Timmy149 wrote:
The way I see it, Kel is trying to prove his point in the face of other people telling him otherwise.

Which is what a debate is.

I give my opinion, a dissenter disagrees with my opinion and cites an explanation, it is then my job(or the job of others that agree with me) to refute that explanation or admit that I was incorrect. If a situation described by a dissenter can be refuted by comparing the situation to another situation associated, then we open a case where the final answer on the described situation will change some aspect of how we play the game.

In this case we have the definition of Battle brothers as a Friendly unit(one that is an Ally in relation to another unit, and is described on the Allies matrix as a "Battle Brother"), then we have my assertion that an IC unit ceases to be a unit in its own right when the model with the IC rule is joined to another unit, and counts as a member of that unit for all rules purposes until it leaves the unit. 40k Noob tried to claim that the IC model remains a unit while joined to the other unit, which I then explained would allow the "IC Unit" to be individually targeted by shooting attacks.

It states that Battle Brothers cannot embark upon allied transport vehicles. This includes ICs

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
And if the IC remains a unit in and of himself then he is targetable by targeting the IC unit.

It goes like this:

You have a SM Tac squad and join a chaplain to it.

Either the chaplain ceases being a unit on his own, or my Guardsman squad can choose to shoot the Chaplain unit within the Tac squad

Can't you individually target independent characters in assault assuming they are not engaged in a challenge?

Yes, you can.

So then they are still a separate unit. In the shooting phase independent characters can issue Look Out Sir and you pull the closest models. They cannot be individually targeted by shooting attacks when joined to another unit except for things like precision shots or say a Vindicare assassin.

 Timmy149 wrote:
It states that Battle Brothers cannot embark upon allied transport vehicles. This includes ICs

And As demonstrated: "Battle Brothers" is defined as a friendly unit. An IC within a unit is not a unit in and of itself.
Therefore an IC in an allied unit is not a "Battle Brother".

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Can't you individually target independent characters in assault assuming they are not engaged in a challenge?

Not if they are joined to a unit. 6th edition removed the rules treating ICs as separate units in assault.