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 DeathReaper wrote:
The heading does not matter as the bullet points specify what they are talking about.

Absolutely incorrect, thanks for playing.

The heading says that BB count as friendly units. Pretending that they meant models is just wrong.
The bullet points are (literally - the rule book even spells this out) examples of what being a friendly unit means.
Therefore, the billet points are only, and can only be, referring to units.

I am not " Pretending that they meant models"

They specify units in the one bullet point, but they simply reference "Battle Brothers" when talking about embarking on allied transports. There is a difference between BB units and BB's

 DeathReaper wrote:
I am not " Pretending that they meant models"

They specify units in the one bullet point, but they simply reference "Battle Brothers" when talking about embarking on allied transports. There is a difference between BB units and BB's

Citation required. The heading before the bullet points disagrees with you.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
I am not " Pretending that they meant models"

They specify units in the one bullet point, but they simply reference "Battle Brothers" when talking about embarking on allied transports. There is a difference between BB units and BB's

Citation required. The heading before the bullet points disagrees with you.

I provided a quote, but I can quote it again.

"Battle Brothers are treated as 'friendly units' from all points of view. This means, for example, that Battle Brothers:" 112

"Are counted as being friendly units for the targeting of psychic powers abilities and so on." 112.
Battle Brothers Are counted as being friendly units for the targeting of psychic powers etc

"not even Battle Brothers can embark in allied transport vehicles." 112
No unit designation in this point so it is the broader Battle Brothers definition of: a category of alliance as per page 112 Levels of alliance section"To represent this, we have several categories of alliances, each of which imposes certain effects on the game. The Allies Matrix shows the levels of potential alliance between each army."

a Battle brother, as defined by the rulebook, is a "categor[y] of alliance" 112

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
I am not " Pretending that they meant models"

They specify units in the one bullet point, but they simply reference "Battle Brothers" when talking about embarking on allied transports. There is a difference between BB units and BB's

Citation required. The heading before the bullet points disagrees with you.

I provided a quote, but I can quote it again.

"Battle Brothers are treated as 'friendly units' from all points of view.

a Battle brother, as defined by the rulebook, is a "categor[y] of alliance" 112

The bolded quote and your final assertion disagree.

No they do not disagree, as both of my quotes apply to Battle Brothers.

"To represent this, we have several categories of alliances, each of which imposes certain effects on the game. The Allies Matrix shows the levels of potential alliance between each army." 112 Under Levels of Alliance

It goes on to list the Levels of Alliance those being Battle Brothers, Allies of Convenience, and Desperate Allies (all P. 112).

Battle brothers is most certainly a "categor[y] of alliance" Or a Level of alliance if you will. The Battle Brothers category of alliance/Level of Alliance imposes certain effects on the game.

Note the direct quote, with the change of tense.

A Battle Brother, as quoted and proven is a category of alliance/Level of Alliance.

Which, by itself, means nothing.
For further guidance the rules say that Battle Brothers are treated as friendly units from all points of view. All. Which means that models that are members of a Blood Angels Assault Squad are Blood Angels, even if there is an IC attached.

A Battle Brother is always a Battle Brother and never ceases to be a Battle Brother. It is not a state of mind nor a passing fancy. It is the rules.

I agree that a Battle Brother unit is always a Battle Brother unit.
An IC ceases to be a member of a Battle Brother unit, however, when it joins a unit from a primary detachment.

What is a Battle Brother?

There's two definitions. One is a high level view of how different codexes interact on the ally table.
The other is a more specific definition of how units from different codexes interact with the rules. The latter is what restricts BB units from embarking on allied transports. ICs joined to an allied unit are not BB units.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
What is a Battle Brother?

A friendly unit.

And DR; the Matrix determines the relation ship between Codices(not models, not units); so to say that everything that has a Grey box intersection is a battle brother is to say that every thing from those codices are battle brothers, and are therefore all friendly units.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
What is a Battle Brother?

A friendly unit.

The definition is not that singular...

rigeld2 wrote:
There's two definitions. One is a high level view of how different codexes interact on the ally table.
The other is a more specific definition of how units from different codexes interact with the rules. The latter is what restricts BB units from embarking on allied transports. ICs joined to an allied unit are not BB units.

There are indeed two definitions.

The bullet point about BB's not entering allied transports does not mention units, so it is the broader definition of Battle Brother, Unless i misquoted the third bullet point.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
There's two definitions. One is a high level view of how different codexes interact on the ally table.
The other is a more specific definition of how units from different codexes interact with the rules. The latter is what restricts BB units from embarking on allied transports. ICs joined to an allied unit are not BB units.

There are indeed two definitions.

The bullet point about BB's not entering allied transports does not mention units, so it is the broader definition of Battle Brother, Unless i misquoted the third bullet point.

The bullet points are a list, correct?
What are they a list of? Fortunately we have a heading telling us.
What does the heading tell us? Oh, examples of what being a friendly unit means.
Unless I've misquoted.

DR: the definition is that singular.

Battle brothers rules are entirely on page 112, when you get to the actual rules you get the definition(a friendly unit)

Where exactly are you finding a second definition?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
DR: the definition is that singular.

Battle brothers rules are entirely on page 112, when you get to the actual rules you get the definition(a friendly unit)

Where exactly are you finding a second definition?

On Page 112, I quoted it earlier.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The second Battle Brothers definition is a Category of Alliance/Level of Alliance as per page 112 Levels of alliance section: "To represent this, we have several categories of alliances, each of which imposes certain effects on the game. The Allies Matrix shows the levels of potential alliance between each army."

"Battle brothers are treated as 'friendly ubits' from all points of view." "
"However, note that not even Battle brothers can embark in allied transport vehicles."
Page 112

The rules are crystal clear here IMO, battle brothers count as friendly units EXCEPT for their ability to embark in transport vehicles. If you were to attach an IC to a unit in a transport vehicle, the IC would either have to leave the unit; as he is a BB and CANNOT embark in allied transports, or the entire squad could not deploy in the transport.
This is stated clearly and I honestly do not understand how you could see it the way you do.
Sounds like you may be trying to bend the rules in your favor

EDIT: In hindsight, this seems a bit pointed, sorry. Honestly, this rule makes no sense at all. As someone posted before, I really don't understand it fluff wise ("You think you can just walk into this land raider without proper authorization?! For shame, Calgar") but balance wise it makes sense. There would be rules that would be really easy to exploit, and weird transport capacities. For example, imagine getting a squad of 10 sternguard and putting Yarrick in the squad, and claiming that they can Grav Chute insertion as they count as a friendly unit "from all points of view". I can't imagine people would be happy with that.

I'm a Tyranid player so I'm not trying to bend the rules in any way and I resent the implication.

Battle Brothers count as friendly units except they cannot embark. An IC joined to an allied unit is not a BB unit.

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm a Tyranid player so I'm not trying to bend the rules in any way and I resent the implication.

Battle Brothers count as friendly units except they cannot embark. An IC joined to an allied unit is not a BB unit.

But his Level of Alliance/Category of Alliance is Battle brother and as such can not embark.

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm a Tyranid player so I'm not trying to bend the rules in any way and I resent the implication.

Battle Brothers count as friendly units except they cannot embark. An IC joined to an allied unit is not a BB unit.

Same here. Especially since I've stated that while I think the rules agree with me, rigeld, and kommissar kel, I don't play that way.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm a Tyranid player so I'm not trying to bend the rules in any way and I resent the implication.

Battle Brothers count as friendly units except they cannot embark. An IC joined to an allied unit is not a BB unit.

But his Level of Alliance/Category of Alliance is Battle brother and as such can not embark.

That restriction is tied to a Battle Brother unit, which an IC is demonstrably not when he's attached to a "native codex" unit.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm a Tyranid player so I'm not trying to bend the rules in any way and I resent the implication.

Battle Brothers count as friendly units except they cannot embark. An IC joined to an allied unit is not a BB unit.

But his Level of Alliance/Category of Alliance is Battle brother and as such can not embark.

That restriction is tied to a Battle Brother unit, which an IC is demonstrably not when he's attached to a "native codex" unit.

The bullet point I quoted disagrees with that assessment.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm a Tyranid player so I'm not trying to bend the rules in any way and I resent the implication.

Battle Brothers count as friendly units except they cannot embark. An IC joined to an allied unit is not a BB unit.

But his Level of Alliance/Category of Alliance is Battle brother and as such can not embark.

That restriction is tied to a Battle Brother unit, which an IC is demonstrably not when he's attached to a "native codex" unit.

The bullet point I quoted disagrees with that assessment.

What that the restriction is tied to a Battle Brother unit?
I've cited why your assertion is incorrect. Ill requote it in case you missed it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
There's two definitions. One is a high level view of how different codexes interact on the ally table.
The other is a more specific definition of how units from different codexes interact with the rules. The latter is what restricts BB units from embarking on allied transports. ICs joined to an allied unit are not BB units.

There are indeed two definitions.

The bullet point about BB's not entering allied transports does not mention units, so it is the broader definition of Battle Brother, Unless i misquoted the third bullet point.

The bullet points are a list, correct?
What are they a list of? Fortunately we have a heading telling us.
What does the heading tell us? Oh, examples of what being a friendly unit means.
Unless I've misquoted.

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm a Tyranid player so I'm not trying to bend the rules in any way and I resent the implication.

Sorry, should have clarified. This is directed to OP (I can't really be bothered to look through 9 pages) but he looks to have ditched this thread a while ago
I really need to remember to quote things...

So in one sentence can you explain why an IC is no longer a battle brother when it joins an allied unit?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So in one sentence can you explain why an IC is no longer a battle brother when it joins an allied unit?

Because an Independent Character counts as a normal member of the unit he joins for all rules purposes, though he still follows all the rules for characters.

Even if the IC is a member of a unit that doesn't make him suddenly no longer a BB.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Even if the IC is a member of a unit that doesn't make him suddenly no longer a BB.

Except BB status is unit based.

Seriously, it'd be great if you read the thread and responded with rules quotes to support your point instead of just making random assertions.

You are too funny.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Even if the IC is a member of a unit that doesn't make him suddenly no longer a BB.

Except BB status is unit based.

I have cited rules that say that an IC is still a Battle Brother.

Page 112 Levels of alliance section: "To represent this, we have several categories of alliances, each of which imposes certain effects on the game. The Allies Matrix shows the levels of potential alliance between each army."

That quote tells us what allies are Battle Brothers. We know that an Independent Character counts as a normal member of the unit he joins for all rules purposes, though he still follows all the rules for characters, but nothing makes him no longer a battle brother as far as the level of alliance is concerned. Therefore he can not embark.

These categories of alliance impose certain effects on the game, one of them being that BB's can not embark on other allied transports.