Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Ailaros wrote:
Definitely.

That said, I'd still go for the lascannon. The jump in killing power from the autocannon/heavy bolter to the lascannon is arguably as big as the jump from nothing to said heavy bolter/autocannon. For only 10 more points.

I like this line of thinking, but it brings up an interesting idea. Does another 20 points justify making the jump to veterans? I recently saw a player in my local store using squads of veterans with Lascannon and 3xsnipers to some good effect. They were a scoring force.

I have been running Autocannons on my Infantry Squads and Running TL-Lascannons on my Sabre Guns. The TL-Lascannons are far better at hitting than a Lascannon in an Infantry Squads and they also come with Skyfire, Interceptor and T7. The Autocannon runs well on the Infantry Squad for early Transport popping then followed by Infantry killing combined with the Lasguns as my opponent closes the gap.

Oooh twin linked Icarus Lascannons

And they count as scoring and come with built in crew and you can have 15 of them in a single troops choice. Whats not to love?

Sinji wrote:
And they count as scoring and come with built in crew and you can have 15 of them in a single troops choice. Whats not to love?

They cost about 100 pts per squad if you take lascannons?

Sinji wrote:And they count as scoring and come with built in crew and you can have 15 of them in a single troops choice. Whats not to love?

The looks on your opponent's faces. If you can even find opponents once you get a reputation for forgeworld abuse.

Forgeworld abuse? like 3 Warp Hunters in a 750pt eldar Army? or like Saber guns everywhere?

There are lots of ways that you can plug expansion units into 40k in ways in which they were obviously not initially intended (or at least, even remotely thought through first). Arguing over what's the worst kind of person one could be doesn't change the fact that 40k has ethics involved.

In this case "love" is an aesthetic choice. If what you love is the kind of things that will get others to hate you, then there isn't a whole lot to be gained, what with 40k being a social activity and all. If you've got to go this far into the meta's meta's meta, though, then it's probably best to just not bother taking whatever it was you were thinking of in the first place.

 Ailaros wrote:
There are lots of ways that you can plug expansion units into 40k in ways in which they were obviously not initially intended (or at least, even remotely thought through first).

Just like there are a lot of ways to do the same with just codex units. Stop pretending that FW rules are somehow any more open to being exploited than anything else GW publishes. Sabre spam might make people unhappy in a "casual" environment where nobody else plays with optimized lists, but it's not like it's going to have any different effect if you bring Necron flyerspam instead.

"Sabre-spam" isn't even a good example of abuse. While a modest artillery investment can contribute toward a competitive list, spending 750 points on them is a profoundly stupid idea.

Even before we examine issues with the Sabres themselves, remember that the Sabre must be taken as part of an Infantry Platoon. While the PCS can justify itself as a special weapons platform and mobile scoring unit, PIS units are usually a liability. An artillery-based army simply doesn't have the target saturation to keep these infantry models alive. At best, they're bubble wrap with a BS3 heavy weapon thrown in.

While Sabres are scoring, they're also immobile. They're never going to claim a distant objective, nor will they get you linebreaker. And even when using them to claim objectives in your deployment zone, their leadership leaves them vulnerable to morale tests. Even rallying won't help, since the guns are removed as soon as the crewmen abandon them.

Defensively, artillery are quite vulnerable to high-strength blast templates. A large blast can only ever inflict a single hit on a vehicle. When you drop a pie plate on artillery, you get to count all those hits on crew members as well. And while a Basilisk's AP3 doesn't count for anything on the damage table, it's perfectly capable of dealing with their 3+ armor save.

Most importantly, artillery cannot defend themselves in close combat. Almost unit capable of mounting an assault will destroy them. Gunline IG is already susceptible to assault, and investing in artillery only makes the problem worse. Whether you acknowledge it or not, the assault phase is still an important part of 40k in 6th edition.

Are they a good unit? Certainly. Do they have weaknesses? Absolutely. It's not unreasonable to expect my opponents to exploit these weaknesses. It's certainly not unethical, and I rather resent your implication that it is.

They do fine as long as you know when to throw the Infantry Squads into the meat grinder. Obviously I wouldn't spend 750pts on them. After doing a fair amount of list juggling I'm finding around 8 in an 1850 point list works fine. Thats on 418pts which is good for me in a flyer heacy meta.

Sinji wrote:
They do fine as long as you know when to throw the Infantry Squads into the meat grinder. Obviously I wouldn't spend 750pts on them. After doing a fair amount of list juggling I'm finding around 8 in an 1850 point list works fine. Thats on 418pts which is good for me in a flyer heacy meta.

I don't really use Sabre Guns, (not owning any) and not sure if they are worth it...

 Timmy149 wrote:

Sinji wrote:
They do fine as long as you know when to throw the Infantry Squads into the meat grinder. Obviously I wouldn't spend 750pts on them. After doing a fair amount of list juggling I'm finding around 8 in an 1850 point list works fine. Thats on 418pts which is good for me in a flyer heacy meta.

I don't really use Sabre Guns, (not owning any) and not sure if they are worth it...

Do you run an agies with either the Quad-Gun or Lascannon as your anti-air? If so proxie a few Sabres instead for a couple of games. They are better than Vendettas for Alpha Strikes as they start on the board so can be shooting from turn 1 & they have interceptor and skyfire. They will generally hit around 75% of the time so if you take 4 then 3 should hit on average. If you take 8 then you should get a glance and 2 pens on average vs AV12. When combined with an officer of the fleet that means around 50% of your opponents flyers should come in from reserve turn 2 so if they have a slot of maxed out flyers and two come in then you should get a pen on each of them with average rolls before they get to attack you. Being AP2 they have a 33% chance of blowing them up and if they don't something else bad will happen instead. A pen is always bad whatever is rolled. Then there is also the chance your opponent will jink in which case they can only snap fire anyways and if that fails its still going to get the pen roll anyways.

So long story short if your meta is starting to be over run by flyer spam sabres are really good and worth the 52pts. They are weak during assaults though and vs AP3 S8+ Barrage weapons and anything with high strength ignores cover. So if you build a list including them take somthing that can support those weaknesses and you should do fine.

Sinji wrote:

 Timmy149 wrote:

Sinji wrote:
They do fine as long as you know when to throw the Infantry Squads into the meat grinder. Obviously I wouldn't spend 750pts on them. After doing a fair amount of list juggling I'm finding around 8 in an 1850 point list works fine. Thats on 418pts which is good for me in a flyer heacy meta.

I don't really use Sabre Guns, (not owning any) and not sure if they are worth it...

Do you run an agies with either the Quad-Gun or Lascannon as your anti-air? If so proxie a few Sabres instead for a couple of games. They are better than Vendettas for Alpha Strikes as they start on the board so can be shooting from turn 1 & they have interceptor and skyfire. They will generally hit around 75% of the time so if you take 4 then 3 should hit on average. If you take 8 then you should get a glance and 2 pens on average vs AV12. When combined with an officer of the fleet that means around 50% of your opponents flyers should come in from reserve turn 2 so if they have a slot of maxed out flyers and two come in then you should get a pen on each of them with average rolls before they get to attack you. Being AP2 they have a 33% chance of blowing them up and if they don't something else bad will happen instead. A pen is always bad whatever is rolled. Then there is also the chance your opponent will jink in which case they can only snap fire anyways and if that fails its still going to get the pen roll anyways.

So long story short if your meta is starting to be over run by flyer spam sabres are really good and worth the 52pts. They are weak during assaults though and vs AP3 S8+ Barrage weapons and anything with high strength ignores cover. So if you build a list including them take somthing that can support those weaknesses and you should do fine.

OT: I haven't played many guard games, usually using a friends when he is away on holidays etc... For AA I usually use ADL with the Quad Gun or some Flakk Missiles (DA FTW!) For my Eldar, I typically use weight of fire (I want some Wraithguard - Great AA compared to other shooting. 10 D-Cannon shots? Yes Please) I sometimes use an allied DA army for AA. Sabres are tempting though... are they Elites?

Sabres replace Heavy Weapons Teams in the Infantry Platoon. So are troops and count as scoring.

The problem I have with the Agies weapons it that they can only effect 1 flyer per turn. So if I'm against a Necron Flyer Army I can only take out 1 of the flyers that come in. What makes sabres so powerful is Interceptor. It allows me to have a chance of taking out the flyer before it attacks me possibly keeping something important alive for another turn. Having several Interceptor units in my force allows me to do this to mulitpul units at once.

Sinji wrote:
Sabres replace Heavy Weapons Teams in the Infantry Platoon. So are troops and count as scoring.

The problem I have with the Agies weapons it that they can only effect 1 flyer per turn. So if I'm against a Necron Flyer Army I can only take out 1 of the flyers that come in. What makes sabres so powerful is Interceptor. It allows me to have a chance of taking out the flyer before it attacks me possibly keeping something important alive for another turn. Having several Interceptor units in my force allows me to do this to mulitpul units at once.

T7 scoring troops with 3+ Armour?!?! Why did I not think of this earlier? (Derp derp derpity derp) I don't know anybody who used sabres in their armies-not sure why you wouldn't.

OT: also, are the stats in IA1?

Sinji wrote:
Sabres replace Heavy Weapons Teams in the Infantry Platoon.

Not strictly accurate. Sabre Batteries replace Heavy Weapons Squads, not Teams. You can't replace the HWT in a PIS with a Sabre, nor in your PCS. I suspect you knew this already, but I wanted to clarify in case anyone else should get the wrong impression.

Your banging on the drum for the Saber does not help anyone who's local meta does not allow Forge World experimental rules. They are experimental for a reason, and just because they exist in FW does not mean they will make it into the codex... and end of the day, if it isn't in the codex it is probably not meant to be. Every IG player uses the IG Codex, not every IG player uses things from FW. Suggest FW as a last option, but not as the primary solution.

IG is actually one of the best lists to deal with flyers. Personally, a Lord Commissar manning a Icarus LC on my ADL is BS 5 and can be twin linked with Orders if you do not use the Intercept. Hydras are the only dedicated AA unit in the game, but eat up valuable heavy slots. But hey, one nice thing about the Hydra is that it is TLed 4 shots and ignores Jink saves. Having a battery of these can shut down alots of flyers, as you can spam as many Hydras as they can flyers. Be happy you can squad them up.

I feel beyond Hydras the best flyer in the game still belongs to the IG. And the best thing to shoot a Flyer with is another flyer... or for most codexs this is about the only other real option besides ADL guns. Vendetta as AV 12 with 3 TLed LCs can gut anything in the air, single or in a squad.

But I think a underrated aspect to IG is the fact that you probably have enough firepower in HWSs and HWTs to just mass fire on a flyer and shoot it down if you really have to. Compared to the other codexs I play, IG have it pretty good. Orks have to be really creative past Lootas, for example. Chaos and Vanilla marines just suck it up and ADL it or take the 6s to hit why they wait for their own flyer. Eldar don't even have a flyer and need to ride that ADL gun... they also don't have the massed firepower IG has. Even scatter lasers doesn't feel like anything when you need 6's to hit and 6's to glance.

As for the OPs post on HWSs in blobs... ACs if your moving, LCs if your camping. ACs can do poor man's AA, but LCs are just better for a reason. If you hit (and that is the trick), your going to pen AV 14 on a 6, AV 12 on a 4+. Then if you do pen, due to the AP of the weapon, your wrecking/blowing up the vehicle on a 4+. Compare what a Str 7 AC has to do to destroy a AV 12. With the number of units than can get heavy weapons with degrees of accuracy, IG can handle a lot. Orders help a ton and a CCS is cheap. Camo Cloaks are cheap. And ADL is cheap. All of this cheap stuff allows you to spend points to get decent wargear. But if you ditch all gear in an attempt to cram in as many weapons as possible, your screwing yourself (like a blob without a Commissar). Just like if you spend to many points on gear and you end up paying points for stuff you don't use or that is nearly worthless (medics, Vox casters, power fists, ect). You need to find a happy medium.

Corollax wrote:

Sinji wrote:
Sabres replace Heavy Weapons Teams in the Infantry Platoon.

Not strictly accurate. Sabre Batteries replace Heavy Weapons Squads, not Teams. You can't replace the HWT in a PIS with a Sabre, nor in your PCS. I suspect you knew this already, but I wanted to clarify in case anyone else should get the wrong impression.

I did mean this sorry for any misunderstandings.

 BlkTom wrote:
Your banging on the drum for the Saber does not help anyone who's local meta does not allow Forge World experimental rules. They are experimental for a reason.

This is just incorrect. While Forgeworld does publish some experimental materials, these are clearly marked. You can find some examples of this in their FAQ page. Standard Forgeworld publications are not subject to this, and are very much intended for use in the 40k setting.

While I can't do anything for the people who without access to Forgeworld venue, you're just perpetuating the same ignorant objections that create these problems in the first place. Stop trying to censor legitimate discussion. If a topic creator wishes to exclude Forgeworld models, that's fine, but it's not your place to tell other players what they can or can't bring up.

Sinji wrote:
I did mean this sorry for any misunderstandings.

Quite alright. And as I thought, you already knew. Since this actually came up in a FW FAQ, I just felt it deserved special mention.

 BlkTom wrote:
and end of the day, if it isn't in the codex it is probably not meant to be.

There is no hierarchy where codex rules are more official than FW ones. The codex is just the set of rules that cover the most common units (usually with plastic kits). FW rules cover a different set of models. And while occasionally FW models have been brought into the codex in the past, current GW policy is not to do that anymore. Not because FW rules are "unofficial" and not "up to codex standard" or whatever, but because it is bad for sales (why move a FW model into the codex when you can make a new model for the codex and sell both of them?). So all the location of the model's rules really means is which brand name GW is selling the model under.

Suggest FW as a last option, but not as the primary solution.

Or, here's a better idea: suggest whatever the best unit for the job is as the primary solution, and let the person asking for advice tell us if they're playing under house rules where certain units aren't an option.

 Peregrine wrote:

 BlkTom wrote:
and end of the day, if it isn't in the codex it is probably not meant to be.

There is no hierarchy where codex rules are more official than FW ones. The codex is just the set of rules that cover the most common units (usually with plastic kits). FW rules cover a different set of models. And while occasionally FW models have been brought into the codex in the past, current GW policy is not to do that anymore. Not because FW rules are "unofficial" and not "up to codex standard" or whatever, but because it is bad for sales (why move a FW model into the codex when you can make a new model for the codex and sell both of them?). So all the location of the model's rules really means is which brand name GW is selling the model under.

Suggest FW as a last option, but not as the primary solution.

Or, here's a better idea: suggest whatever the best unit for the job is as the primary solution, and let the person asking for advice tell us if they're playing under house rules where certain units aren't an option.

This is all good advice. Not sure how things are run in the rest of the world but where I'm from Forge World has become standard practice. 95% of tourneys accept Forge World and the ones which don't aren't very popular. The only place that doesn't really like it is my local GW store but all of the people that game in there are there own breed of people with two heads dreams of the day they will be able to talk to a real life girl. I try and avoid it when possible. Generaly the only people that won't play against Forge World models are people scared to lose. They are also the same people which are bad sports that bitch and moan about everything. If I find myself facing these people I tend to either slow and ask lots of noob questions that are plain obvious just to annoy them or I go for fast tabling both ways work a treat.

Quick question is it a waste to throw in a flamer into the IS that are basically carriers for a AC or LC, for overwatch defence? And anyone got suggestions for scratch-built Sabre's, I've got a lot of heavy weapons left but I am more needing creative advice on the carriages.

Wow could you make more generalisations? All that's missing is the reference to the Jewish conspiracy to prevent forge world products in GW stores.
The old argument is just that: old. It's so much simpler to let people give out whatever advice they like as long as it's not demonstrably wrong. If that includes FW so be it. If it doesn't does it matter?
Apparently I'm ok with hitting my head against a brick wall...

 SwampRats45MK wrote:
Quick question is it a waste to throw in a flamer into the IS that are basically carriers for a AC or LC, for overwatch defence? And anyone got suggestions for scratch-built Sabre's, I've got a lot of heavy weapons left but I am more needing creative advice on the carriages.

Advice for the carriages can be found here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/432400.page

As for the sabres you can get the gun mounts from the agies line off a bitz dealer or e-bay then convert it to have 2 Lascannons I don't have any pics for mine I will be sculpting my own then casting them up and putting 2 Lascannons from a bitz dealer on each of them. I will be basing each of them on terminator sized bases. 8-10 should do the trick. For the crew I'll use as many Heavy Weapon Team arms as possible. Until then its just Proxie feaver for me. I'll post pics when finished.

Thanks! I hadn't though about using German 88's lol nor using the mounts from the ageis kit, nifty.

Corollax wrote:

 BlkTom wrote:
Your banging on the drum for the Saber does not help anyone who's local meta does not allow Forge World experimental rules. They are experimental for a reason.

This is just incorrect. While Forgeworld does publish some experimental materials, these are clearly marked. You can find some examples of this in their FAQ page. Standard Forgeworld publications are not subject to this, and are very much intended for use in the 40k setting.

No... I am correct. If your meta does not allow Forge World, then it is not an option. Period. Yes, FW models are intended for use in 40k, they are made and created to be used in that setting. Of course this is, how can you effectively play test or make new models without giving them some sort of stat line and rule that is fitting for the system it is intended to work in? Duh. But, experimental rules and non-standard lists are not the norm. As a Chaos marine player, I can easily point out that a lot of stuff that was in Forgeworld for a long time did not make it into the codex. Why is that? Go ahead and answer me that...

Corollax wrote:
While I can't do anything for the people who without access to Forgeworld venue, you're just perpetuating the same ignorant objections that create these problems in the first place. Stop trying to censor legitimate discussion. If a topic creator wishes to exclude Forgeworld models, that's fine, but it's not your place to tell other players what they can or can't bring up.

Did I say 'Don't mention FW?' I mean, your not even twisting words there, your just making up gak now and claiming I have said it. I said not everyone uses FW, that it is an option, but only if your local meta allows it. It should not be the first thing mentioned as a solution, because that is impractical and incorrect... and frankly, lazy. To play IG, you need a codex, use that codex first to attempt to solve your list problems, then look at Allies to solve your list's problems. If FW is an option, then use it, but it is not the only one. I listed 4 options just from the Codex.

To be honest, the OP isn't the one who brought FW up. Frankly, I am not squashing jack and squat. The person who mentioned it runs in a heavy FW meta, so it is a natural thing to bring up for him. Fine and dandy. But you can not expect everyone to be running FW. Maybe I didn't put it as nice as I could have, or said it more gently, but I am not censoring Sinji, nor do I mean disrespect towards him.

 BlkTom wrote:
If your meta does not allow Forge World, then it is not an option.

What's your point? If your meta doesn't allow more than two flyers in a list then 3x Vendettas isn't an option. But until the person asking for advice specifically says which (if any) house rules they're playing under and which units are unacceptable then there's no point in speculating and refusing to suggest certain units because they might not be an option.

As a Chaos marine player, I can easily point out that a lot of stuff that was in Forgeworld for a long time did not make it into the codex. Why is that? Go ahead and answer me that...

Because GW's policy is that they don't move FW stuff into codices anymore, for sales reasons. After doing it a few times they realized that it's better to invent entirely new units for the codex so you can sell both the new plastic kit and the old FW model. It has nothing to do with balance or playtesting or any of that, it's purely a sales decision.

"if it isn't in the codex it is probably not meant to be"
You are right.
Sabres are in the codex. It clearly states that a Sabre battery replaces a HWS in Codex IG infantry platoon.
As any FAQ or errata updates the codex so can any IA update it.

If you use the codex exactly as printed without errata or faq then I accept you ban FW.
But if you use the updates for your codex than there is no reason to not accept IA as it is same official GW update as any FAQ or errata.

My understanding is that Forge World is always allowed and it is just polite to tell your opponent before playing a game