Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello all, I asked here a few months back about trying out WHFB and I was at the time interested in maybe trying out Skaven. I got a bit scared away from that idea after I realized how expensive it would be to collect an army. Well, I'm still interested in the game and I've convinced a couple of my fellow 40K players to potentially start small armies to try the game with.

So, I find myself here again to ask some more questions.

Since none of our small group want to get stuck with a "bad" army to start with, are there any codexes which are currently very outdated or weak, which newcomers should avoid?

If we purchase an Island of Blood set, will there be a small rulebook inside? Does this set come with movement trays? If not, where might one get movement trays?

In my own interests, I've always liked undead themed armies. If I wanted to play as a Vampire Count, would it grant me access to some sort of magical ability to reanimate undead? AKA: Returning destroyed models to the table, ala Necrons? Or perhaps casting a spell and summoning a new unit of skeletons or zombies?

Are there any recommended armies for newcomers? One of my friends mentioned being interested in the Warriors of Chaos. I'm interested in several armies myself, including the Vampire Counts, Ogre Kingdoms, Skaven and Warriors of Chaos also.

Skaven are no more expensive than most races because you can get relatively cheap clan rats/slaves from the Skaven/High Elf Isle of Blood set. I see many auctions on ebay for them. Isle of Blood does contain the mini-rule-book and that book and your army book will be the only material you need along with your actual army.

You could also use models from other companies if you do not plan on playing at a Games Workshop store or attend GW tournaments, Cost is relative to your play style.

Tomb Kings are one of the weakest armies out there, Of course, they are still playable unless you play against power players. Most armies have a competitive build.

Vampire Counts do allow you to create and add to units of skeletons and zombies with the right spells and abilities. Other abilities will even allow Vampire bats and Dire Wolf units to be reanimated if they were not completely destroyed during the game.

Chaos is an 'easy' army for first time players. They have a linear strategy of moving forward and crushing your foes beneath your boots. While you can play then with a more complex strategy if you wish, it is rarely unnecessary.

Pythagoras wrote:
Skaven are no more expensive than most races because you can get relatively cheap clan rats/slaves from the Skaven/High Elf Isle of Blood set. I see many auctions on ebay for them. Isle of Blood does contain the mini-rule-book and that book and your army book will be the only material you need along with your actual army.

You could also use models from other companies if you do not plan on playing at a Games Workshop store or attend GW tournaments, Cost is relative to your play style.

Tomb Kings are one of the weakest armies out there, Of course, they are still playable unless you play against power players. Most armies have a competitive build.

Vampire Counts do allow you to create and add to units of skeletons and zombies with the right spells and abilities. Other abilities will even allow Vampire bats and Dire Wolf units to be reanimated if they were not completely destroyed during the game.

Chaos is an 'easy' army for first time players. They have a linear strategy of moving forward and crushing your foes beneath your boots. While you can play then with a more complex strategy if you wish, it is rarely unnecessary.

I appreciate your taking the time to answer me. I took a look at Tomb Kings, but didn't dig the whole Egyptian theme of it. If I wanted that, I'd play 40K Thousand Sons.

So that I can tell my friends, other than Tomb Kings, are there any other armies that you'd recommend staying away from? And other than WoC any other armies you'd recommend for beginners?

There's no reason to stay away from Tomb Kings if that's what you want. Pythagoras is exaggerating the power curve a bit there - in general, the power curve is very close in Fantasy. Tomb Kings are the weakest of the 8th edition army books, but they can still hold their own against the likes of Ogres, who are at the top of the power curve. They just need to be a bit more careful in unit selection.

The armies for newer players to generally stay away from are Wood Elves and Brettonians. For two good reasons - they're old, and thus take a lot more skill to play. Again, they can hold their own against the likes of Ogres if played well, but you need to be at the top of your game, all game, every game.

The other reason is again, they're old. Rumour is they might not even get a new army book, though I think that's a load of crap. However, there's a good chance that after building up 2000pts of either, when their book finally hits, the army might play entirely differently and require a good amount of restructuring and new purchases.

Stay clear of those two armies unless you really dig them, and you can't really go wrong with Fantasy.

You know what, I think I will try Skaven. The more I think about it, the happier it makes me to field an army of mice. I could name my heroes after Redwall characters. Martin The Warrior, Luke The Warrior, Matthias of Redwall, etc, etc.

 Iron Dragon wrote:
You know what, I think I will try Skaven. The more I think about it, the happier it makes me to field an army of mice. I could name my heroes after Redwall characters. Martin The Warrior, Luke The Warrior, Matthias of Redwall, etc, etc.

Be careful though, Skaven are extremely expensive $-wise - units of 60+ slaves are not a rare sight.

I'm going to start small and work my way up, if I like the game itself.

Just hunt through ebay for Skaven Island of Blood sets. Each set yeilds 40 Clanrats, and is cheaper than buying those 40 clanrats in infantry boxes. It will also give you 2 Rat Ogres and a Master, a Warlord, an Engineer and two poison mortars.

In fact, 40 Clanrats will cost you more than an ENTIRE Island of Blood set. And again, that set includes 40 clanrats, as well as the rest of the Skaven, the High Elves, and all of the rest of the bits and bobs.

 -Loki- wrote:
Just hunt through ebay for Skaven Island of Blood sets. Each set yeilds 40 Clanrats, and is cheaper than buying those 40 clanrats in infantry boxes. It will also give you 2 Rat Ogres and a Master, a Warlord, an Engineer and two poison mortars.

In fact, 40 Clanrats will cost you more than an ENTIRE Island of Blood set. And again, that set includes 40 clanrats, as well as the rest of the Skaven, the High Elves, and all of the rest of the bits and bobs.

Agreed. If you shop about. Clanrats/slave models are very cheap.

 Iron Dragon wrote:

Since none of our small group want to get stuck with a "bad" army to start with, are there any codexes which are currently very outdated or weak, which newcomers should avoid?

Wood Elves and Brettonia are the obvious ones, with Tomb Kings and perhaps Orcs and Goblins being pretty low-tier too. If you're looking for something good, avoid them. However, I'd still recommend you go with the army you like the look of most - that's what will give you the most enjoyment playing, although it does depend on how competitive you are. However, I will mention, with the usual joy it gives me, that WHFB is far, far more balanced than 40k. Whereas with 40k you can look at the two players' armies before the battle and decide with a high accuracy who's going to win, it's much harder to do so in fantasy. Armies like Bretonnians can win against some of the better armies such as Dark Elves and Ogres, but you will need more skill than your opponent will need to pull off a victory. The lower tier armies are still viable, but there are very few builds that are. Dark Elves can field pretty much any unit in the book and have a decent army list, whereas armies like WE, TK and Brets are stuck to only a few viable builds.

 Iron Dragon wrote:

If we purchase an Island of Blood set, will there be a small rulebook inside? Does this set come with movement trays? If not, where might one get movement trays?

Yes to the Rulebook, no to the movement trays. As to where to get the movement trays, GW are the obvious place. I still maintain they're the best value thing that GW sell, £10 will give you enough movement trays for 200 standard sized models and 128 25mm Based ones (i.e. Orcs). However, as you start out, I'd recommend you make your own using cardboard and bits of sprue. Once you've finalised your army lists and know how many models are going to be in each unit, then is the time to invest in movement trays.

 Iron Dragon wrote:

In my own interests, I've always liked undead themed armies. If I wanted to play as a Vampire Count, would it grant me access to some sort of magical ability to reanimate undead? AKA: Returning destroyed models to the table, ala Necrons? Or perhaps casting a spell and summoning a new unit of skeletons or zombies?

Yes. This is literally what the army is all about.

 Iron Dragon wrote:

Are there any recommended armies for newcomers? One of my friends mentioned being interested in the Warriors of Chaos. I'm interested in several armies myself, including the Vampire Counts, Ogre Kingdoms, Skaven and Warriors of Chaos also

Empire is the classic, and by far and away the best, army for beginners. Empire are an extremely well-rounded army, and you will get to participate equally in all phases of the game, which makes it really easy to pick up all the rules. You can also tailor your list to suit your playstyle better. WoC are another good beginners army, but for much the opposite reasons as empire are. Simply put, the tactics behind them are very simple. Close in with your enemy as quick as possible and cut him to pieces. Similarly, Dwarves are the same, but at the shooting end of the spectrum, however, Dwarves are boring to play with, and against, like this but, can fortunately, play differently, just not as well. Finally, Ogres are another great beginners army, since they're fairly well-rounded (no pun intended) and can resort to simple tactics if need be and, finally, they have a very low model count and an excellent Battalion, so you can get an army together quickly and cheaply.

Do not, by all means, buy GW movement trays. Buy plasticard. It's a LOT cheaper, easier to use and requires very basic manufacturing skills.

 The Shadow wrote:

 Iron Dragon wrote:

Since none of our small group want to get stuck with a "bad" army to start with, are there any codexes which are currently very outdated or weak, which newcomers should avoid?

Wood Elves and Brettonia are the obvious ones, with Tomb Kings and perhaps Orcs and Goblins being pretty low-tier too. If you're looking for something good, avoid them. However, I'd still recommend you go with the army you like the look of most - that's what will give you the most enjoyment playing, although it does depend on how competitive you are. However, I will mention, with the usual joy it gives me, that WHFB is far, far more balanced than 40k. Whereas with 40k you can look at the two players' armies before the battle and decide with a high accuracy who's going to win, it's much harder to do so in fantasy. Armies like Bretonnians can win against some of the better armies such as Dark Elves and Ogres, but you will need more skill than your opponent will need to pull off a victory. The lower tier armies are still viable, but there are very few builds that are. Dark Elves can field pretty much any unit in the book and have a decent army list, whereas armies like WE, TK and Brets are stuck to only a few viable builds.

 Iron Dragon wrote:

If we purchase an Island of Blood set, will there be a small rulebook inside? Does this set come with movement trays? If not, where might one get movement trays?

Yes to the Rulebook, no to the movement trays. As to where to get the movement trays, GW are the obvious place. I still maintain they're the best value thing that GW sell, £10 will give you enough movement trays for 200 standard sized models and 128 25mm Based ones (i.e. Orcs). However, as you start out, I'd recommend you make your own using cardboard and bits of sprue. Once you've finalised your army lists and know how many models are going to be in each unit, then is the time to invest in movement trays.

 Iron Dragon wrote:

In my own interests, I've always liked undead themed armies. If I wanted to play as a Vampire Count, would it grant me access to some sort of magical ability to reanimate undead? AKA: Returning destroyed models to the table, ala Necrons? Or perhaps casting a spell and summoning a new unit of skeletons or zombies?

Yes. This is literally what the army is all about.

 Iron Dragon wrote:

Are there any recommended armies for newcomers? One of my friends mentioned being interested in the Warriors of Chaos. I'm interested in several armies myself, including the Vampire Counts, Ogre Kingdoms, Skaven and Warriors of Chaos also

Empire is the classic, and by far and away the best, army for beginners. Empire are an extremely well-rounded army, and you will get to participate equally in all phases of the game, which makes it really easy to pick up all the rules. You can also tailor your list to suit your playstyle better. WoC are another good beginners army, but for much the opposite reasons as empire are. Simply put, the tactics behind them are very simple. Close in with your enemy as quick as possible and cut him to pieces. Similarly, Dwarves are the same, but at the shooting end of the spectrum, however, Dwarves are boring to play with, and against, like this but, can fortunately, play differently, just not as well. Finally, Ogres are another great beginners army, since they're fairly well-rounded (no pun intended) and can resort to simple tactics if need be and, finally, they have a very low model count and an excellent Battalion, so you can get an army together quickly and cheaply.

Yeah, see I thought about Empire as well, but the armies seem a bit tough to paint. The troops themselves seem somewhat bland as well, and don't interest me as much as other races. I'm way more interested in Vampire Counts, Skaven and Ogres.

I'll let my buddies know to avoid some of the armies that you mentioned. If one of my friends wants to use High Elves, then we'll probably buy an Island of Blood set and split it. We need a main rulebook, and a mini rulebook is much more handy than a big rulebook. When I got my mini rulebook for 40K, I ended up selling the big one.

High Elves is a pretty solid choice for a new player. For one thing, they're in the box set. For another, they're just getting a new army book, and because they're a relatively elite army, they tend to have a slightly lower unit count which in theory leads to needing to buy less models and paint less models. Add to that the fact that its a relatively powerful army, and likely to do perform well, and there you go.

 Iron Dragon wrote:
Yeah, see I thought about Empire as well, but the armies seem a bit tough to paint. The troops themselves seem somewhat bland as well, and don't interest me as much as other races. I'm way more interested in Vampire Counts, Skaven and Ogres.

Fantasy armies tend to be massively bigger investments than 40k (it's not uncommon for one core unit to have more models than a whole 40k army), with more time invested in building, painting and playing them (as games tend to be longer), and more money in putting it all together.

Go with the army you're interested in. If you want Skaven, go Skaven. If you want Vampire Counts, go Vampire Counts. The best beginner army is the army you actually want. If you go with an army you don't like but is 'good for beginners', you'll just end up not enjoying your time with Fantasy.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Iron Dragon wrote:
Yeah, see I thought about Empire as well, but the armies seem a bit tough to paint. The troops themselves seem somewhat bland as well, and don't interest me as much as other races. I'm way more interested in Vampire Counts, Skaven and Ogres.

Fantasy armies tend to be massively bigger investments than 40k (it's not uncommon for one core unit to have more models than a whole 40k army), with more time invested in building, painting and playing them (as games tend to be longer), and more money in putting it all together.

Go with the army you're interested in. If you want Skaven, go Skaven. If you want Vampire Counts, go Vampire Counts. The best beginner army is the army you actually want. If you go with an army you don't like but is 'good for beginners', you'll just end up not enjoying your time with Fantasy.

Haha, see, that's my problem! I'm interested in several armies for WHFB, but funds are limited, so I need to pick just one for now. I'm 90% sure I've decided on Skaven as my first. I haven't actually played WHFB at all yet, so I'm not sure how much I'll like the game. I'd really like to start small and give it a try. I have a feeling picking up stuff from Isle of Blood on ebay can give me the opportunity to try it out for 'minimal' (Minimal for GW anyway) damage to my wallet.

If you just want to try Skaven and the game, indeed buy the Skaven from IoB. I'd suggest not buying the entire IoB box. Just hunt on ebay, buy the Skaven set, maybe two to give you a decent 1000pt army (or the start to one), and buy the mini rulebook and dice (mostly for the artillery die, which 40k does not use anymore). Hunt down the army book on ebay as well, it shouldn't be much anymore.

Even two sets and the mini rulebook should come in under the price of the IoB set, giving you the rules, two units of 40 Clanrats, 4 Rat Ogres, 4 Poison Mortars, and a few characters. The army book might bring it above the IoB set price, but gives you the army book, which is a huge plus for learning the game.

Don't paint anything yet, just build it. Then just ask around your FLGS for people willing to give you some intro games. If you don't like the game, resell it all. If you like it but find you don't like Skaven, sell the army book and Skaven and use the money to buy models for another army. If you like the game AND the Skaven, you've got a great base of an army for cheap.

 -Loki- wrote:
If you just want to try Skaven and the game, indeed buy the Skaven from IoB. I'd suggest not buying the entire IoB box. Just hunt on ebay, buy the Skaven set, maybe two to give you a decent 1000pt army (or the start to one), and buy the mini rulebook and dice (mostly for the artillery die, which 40k does not use anymore). Hunt down the army book on ebay as well, it shouldn't be much anymore.

Even two sets and the mini rulebook should come in under the price of the IoB set, giving you the rules, two units of 40 Clanrats, 4 Rat Ogres, 4 Poison Mortars, and a few characters. The army book might bring it above the IoB set price, but gives you the army book, which is a huge plus for learning the game.

Don't paint anything yet, just build it. Then just ask around your FLGS for people willing to give you some intro games. If you don't like the game, resell it all. If you like it but find you don't like Skaven, sell the army book and Skaven and use the money to buy models for another army. If you like the game AND the Skaven, you've got a great base of an army for cheap.

That's really great advice, thanks very much! Myself and two of my 40K friends have agreed to give WHFB a try, and dip our toes in with a minimal army to see how we like the game. One of my friends is considering trying High Elves. If he goes that direction, we'll split IoB between us. I think our other friend wants to try Warriors of Chaos. So, hopefully there will be at least three of us able to play regularly. At our FLGS, it's mainly 40K and Warmahordes, I've only seen WHFB being played there twice. If we're lucky, we may be able to bring the WHFB players back into the store and have more regular players there. We certainly could use the help of the more experienced players to explain the system. GW can often be .. confusing when they're writing rules for these games.

If your friend wants High Elves, indeed split the box. Just be aware, as usual, the armies are not balanced, and there is also no summary of units in the box. There's a free PDF on GW's site though.

If you split the box, you can get away with just downloading that PDF and running through some games without army books. Though I'd suggest grabbing an extra mini rulebook on ebay so both of you can brush up on rules when not playing.

 -Loki- wrote:
If your friend wants High Elves, indeed split the box. Just be aware, as usual, the armies are not balanced, and there is also no summary of units in the box. There's a free PDF on GW's site though.

If you split the box, you can get away with just downloading that PDF and running through some games without army books. Though I'd suggest grabbing an extra mini rulebook on ebay so both of you can brush up on rules when not playing.

Yeah, I was pretty much assuming that the boxed set would be unbalanced in some way. I'm not sure who has the advantage, though. 40K was like that with Dark Vengeance, where the Dark Angels had about a 30% advantage in points with the boxed set over the Chaos forces. Luckily there's enough Isle of Blood stuff floating around out there, that evening the teams shouldn't be too hard.

On that note, will IoB parts for the Elves be in short supply, because the Elves are getting a new codex in May? That may influence my friend's decision. He also said he was interested in the Dark Elves. Hmmm. Are Dark Elves any more complicated, or harder to play than the standard Elves? I don't want him to get frustrated with a hard army to play.

 Iron Dragon wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
If your friend wants High Elves, indeed split the box. Just be aware, as usual, the armies are not balanced, and there is also no summary of units in the box. There's a free PDF on GW's site though.

If you split the box, you can get away with just downloading that PDF and running through some games without army books. Though I'd suggest grabbing an extra mini rulebook on ebay so both of you can brush up on rules when not playing.

Yeah, I was pretty much assuming that the boxed set would be unbalanced in some way. I'm not sure who has the advantage, though. 40K was like that with Dark Vengeance, where the Dark Angels had about a 30% advantage in points with the boxed set over the Chaos forces. Luckily there's enough Isle of Blood stuff floating around out there, that evening the teams shouldn't be too hard.

On that note, will IoB parts for the Elves be in short supply, because the Elves are getting a new codex in May? That may influence my friend's decision. He also said he was interested in the Dark Elves. Hmmm. Are Dark Elves any more complicated, or harder to play than the standard Elves? I don't want him to get frustrated with a hard army to play.

Every army plays differently. If he just doesn't like how they play, do as I suggested with the Skaven. Tell him to sell them and go with an army he likes.

There's plenty of IoB Elves online already, and I'd expect bits sellers to ramp up their IoB Elf sets when High Elves drop.

 Iron Dragon wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
If your friend wants High Elves, indeed split the box. Just be aware, as usual, the armies are not balanced, and there is also no summary of units in the box. There's a free PDF on GW's site though.

If you split the box, you can get away with just downloading that PDF and running through some games without army books. Though I'd suggest grabbing an extra mini rulebook on ebay so both of you can brush up on rules when not playing.

Yeah, I was pretty much assuming that the boxed set would be unbalanced in some way. I'm not sure who has the advantage, though. 40K was like that with Dark Vengeance, where the Dark Angels had about a 30% advantage in points with the boxed set over the Chaos forces. Luckily there's enough Isle of Blood stuff floating around out there, that evening the teams shouldn't be too hard.

On that note, will IoB parts for the Elves be in short supply, because the Elves are getting a new codex in May? That may influence my friend's decision. He also said he was interested in the Dark Elves. Hmmm. Are Dark Elves any more complicated, or harder to play than the standard Elves? I don't want him to get frustrated with a hard army to play.

They are not frustrating.

But I would suggest him starting with IOB it is a very good set for High Elves now.

Okay, today I placed an order via ebay for the Isle of Blood set of Skaven models. I feel like I got a pretty good deal, $30 for all of the Isle of Blood Skaven models. If my friend and I split an IoB between us, that'll give me two sets of IoB models. Is that enough to form the core of a small army? I suppose I'd still have to eventually get other things, like the wheel and bell, and catapults and such too. But for now, is it a decent start?

Also, do you folks think it'd be alright to use alternative models? I really wanted to use some of the Mousling models from Reaper Miniatures for some of my heroes and special characters. They're so cute!

As long as your store and opponents are fine with it, you can use pits of pringles for your models. My regular VC opponent has Mantic and KoW models in his army. I would say that those models will stand out very obviously in a Skaven army, though.

Good luck with the WFB. It is a fun game, and very visually rewarding. I play a number of games, but simply nothing can match a glittering host arrayed for battle.

a few pointers for cost savings as you and your group build your forces up,,,,,you can get mini rule book from the war store,,neal is great to work with,,,or try bartertown for deals on armies and what not.

A normal unit of Slaves is 50-100 models, depending on where you play, clanrats 50ish.

Skaven are incredibly expensive. I mean, really, really expensive.

Well, so far we've ordered an Island of Blood set from ebay, plus an extra mini rulebook. In total it came to about $110. Between us, we each get a rulebook and our IoB faction's starter army for about $55. I feel like that's pretty reasonable. Since everyone says I need a lot of Skaven, I went ahead and separately ordered a Skaven army from IoB for myself, so I'll have 2 IoB sets. Is that a pretty decent start, to try the game out?

Weak Books: Wood Elves and Beastmen. Wood Elves are weak due to being very outdated and relying heavily on Skirmish rules, which took a serious hit in 8th edition. Beastmen are just a very poorly designed book.

Old Books: Brettonians, Lizardmen, Wood Elves, and Dark Elves.


I would say its still perfectly safe to get Bretts, Lizardmen, or Dark Elves even if they are due an update soon.

An update for Lizardmen and Dark Elves will likely be a nerf due to how powerful the books are(relatively speaking only, overall all the books are fairly close in power) but will still be very playable and no units will get invalidated.