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 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I played a game last night, first ever with Kirai... and I have to say that I am not against having simpler stat cards. I was doing a lot of hmmm and uhhh while trying to keep the pace of the game as fast as possible.

When faced with a 10T crew that had both Ototo and Yamaziko (my friend didn't have his crew), it was solidly in his favour.

Now that the beta rules are out, have you given a shot of using her with the new rules? Or is she not in the playtest rules at the moment? (I haven't checked on them since their update last Friday).

Also, I've got a new box art to preview from Eric's twitter account:


If anyone has been playing the beta rules for the new edition I'd certainly like to hear them. I haven't been able to give them the love and attention that I should be, but still would like to hear people's thoughts.

The Wyrd forum has a section to discuss the open beta rules. From what I've gathered most people like them with a few quirks here and there.

Kirai isn't in the playtest rules so far. It is mostly book 1 models. The rest will get playtested later this year after this batch is finalized.

 bbb wrote:
The Wyrd forum has a section to discuss the open beta rules. From what I've gathered most people like them with a few quirks here and there.

Kirai isn't in the playtest rules so far. It is mostly book 1 models. The rest will get playtested later this year after this batch is finalized.

Yeah, general review is that the rules updates are a good thing. Locally for me this is not the case, as the majority of my players are not fans of the rules . Thankfully 1.5 is tournament and event legal until January.

Haven't given the rules a play yet, my group is fairly conservative, unfortunately.

Kirai couldn't work with the few rules per stat card right now. Maybe I am not imaginative enough, but she literally needs almost all the spells and abilities on her card at the moment.

Unless they were to simply her relationship with Seishins, then that might be a great boon. Or have some of that stuff on the Seishin card rather than Kirai's.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Haven't given the rules a play yet, my group is fairly conservative, unfortunately.

Kirai couldn't work with the few rules per stat card right now. Maybe I am not imaginative enough, but she literally needs almost all the spells and abilities on her card at the moment.

Unless they were to simply her relationship with Seishins, then that might be a great boon. Or have some of that stuff on the Seishin card rather than Kirai's.

Thats kinda how I feel about Jacob Lynch. Not a fan of his new version, since he's so weak compared to the other masters, and you need to pay 6 soul stones for the hungering darkness (and he has a low cache still!). No defense, next to no offense compared to other masters, slow speed and he needs to be in the thick of things. That and he lost hiring options. Boo urns.

I do like the new Zoraida (particularly dual faction), and am feelign out the arcanists. Also, the art is almost unilaterally an upgrade. I feel like this one's gonna cost me if the minis compare. And arent eleventy billion parts.

So fifty-seventeen thousands' ok with you?

It's still a beta, frankly I'm happy they are doing it this way, rather than dump it on us and then FAQ the hell out of it.

The devs have been really great with listening to feedback and tweaking the things that need tweaking. I only started playing 1.5 a month ago, but having seen the direction of 2.0 thus far, I'm very enthusiastic for Malifaux's future.

They've mentioned that the models that aren't in the first wave of beta (such as Kirai) will be in the second wave, and most people expect them to be done sometime late this year / early next year.

 Mindshred wrote:
The devs have been really great with listening to feedback and tweaking the things that need tweaking. I only started playing 1.5 a month ago, but having seen the direction of 2.0 thus far, I'm very enthusiastic for Malifaux's future.

They've mentioned that the models that aren't in the first wave of beta (such as Kirai) will be in the second wave, and most people expect them to be done sometime late this year / early next year.

Unfortunately like half of Jacob's signature screw is in that list (Tannin, Graves, Depleted) and Stitched Together, so it makes him a bit harder to test and contributes to the weaker feel I get from him vs the other masters.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Haven't given the rules a play yet, my group is fairly conservative, unfortunately.

Kirai couldn't work with the few rules per stat card right now. Maybe I am not imaginative enough, but she literally needs almost all the spells and abilities on her card at the moment.

Unless they were to simply her relationship with Seishins, then that might be a great boon. Or have some of that stuff on the Seishin card rather than Kirai's.

I think it's quite doable. Her signature abilities are the ability to pass hits onto Seishin, switch spirits around, turn into a spirit, transform spirits into more powerful forms and summon the Ikiryo. It's not hard to see one or two of those being innate abilities, and the others being upgrades.

Upgrades without which she can't really function, though. Unless they change her dynamics. Unless they are upgrades to minions instead of her...

If Seishins could get an upgrade named "Vessel of..." and could therefore be used to channel Kirai's wounds into a metamorphosis, that whole spell would free up a lot of space on her card.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Upgrades without which she can't really function, though. Unless they change her dynamics. Unless they are upgrades to minions instead of her...

If Seishins could get an upgrade named "Vessel of..." and could therefore be used to channel Kirai's wounds into a metamorphosis, that whole spell would free up a lot of space on her card.

Depends on what Seishins are classified as in the new rules, if they're the new insignificant (can't remember the name, begins with a p?) then they can't take upgrades.

There is a pre-existance of upgrades that work on other models based on LOS. Just look at the neverborn upgrade for Woes.

It might be that the playstyle of Kirai changes slightly, or the exact things she can do change slightly.

I just bought my first malifaux crew, went with Collodi, so am looking forward to seeing where M2E will take him.

True about the peons. That might bar them from having upgrades. What I meant was put a bit more onto their card, to free up space on Kirai's.

Having only played twice with her, I wouldn't mind having to learn all new tricks, honestly. I'm convinced once I get the hang of her, I'll make it work.

It would help if people remembered their strategies and schemes though...

Having played a couple games, I have to say I really like what I'm seeing. Match ups that were auto-win for one side don't seem that way anymore. Also, first game, I tabled my opponent and still lost on VP's. that's exactly how Malifaux should be! In my second game I had to not kill my opponent on the last turn and get him to kill me so I could place a "scheme marker" and hen reveal that it's an explosive which gave me three VP's and the game! Super tactical, the cards are easier to understand, and you can build complexity back in with upgrades. So far, it's great!

The latest iteration of beta rules are up: http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?43868-M2E-Playtest-Files-06-13-13

Managed to get one game in, Perdita vs Rasputina. It was fun, looking to get our next test game in later this week, but 2/5 of my usual playgroup are pretty wary (if not outright hostile) of the next edition, so it remains to be seen whether or not I'll be adopting the new edition.

There are others in the area who get to play on occasion, but it's hard to account for the opinions of people whom I only get to play once per month or three. Which will be an interesting dichotomy as the opinions of 2 out of up to a dozen people might influence whether or not we all buy in.

My playgroup is entirely against 2nd ed, so for the time being we're going to enjoy the last remaining bits of the current edition. I finally sat down this past Friday to look over Pandora, and while she's not as awesome as she was, I can still do some of the nasty tricks with her.

The biggest change I found with her is that her Df still sucks and she has no natural defense against being targeted anymore, but you still have to beat her in a Wp duel (if I read her abilities right).

Not loving the game thus far. The wife and I do feel like 90% of the changes are good ones, but upgrades are terrible, add a layer of record-keeping to a game which has a long enough set-up already, and in the games my club has played, the vast majority of the time we go all-in on our Masters upgrades just to get them back to resembling the way they previously played.

Also... my beloved Ortegas just feel so plain now... My favorite crew is a ghost of its former self, and that just feels annoying.

As someone who started with (and regularly plays) the Ortegas, I do like the new Francisco. Santiago has indeed lost a significant amount of his old survivability, but he's plenty shoot'y still. Perdita herself is still a fairly tough nut to crack, but the changes to soul stones hit hard, as they did most combat masters. Haven't really looked much at Papa Loco, though I wasn't enthusiastic about what I saw.

What has been done to neuter Nino should be a crime against gaming. 8" objective denial (within LOS at least) might be good, but long range doesn't mean much to a sniper who can't hit a barn, and combat 5 is pretty sad, especially for a fairly expensive figure that used to be at a 7 and could buff up to a 9.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Not loving the game thus far. The wife and I do feel like 90% of the changes are good ones, but upgrades are terrible, add a layer of record-keeping to a game which has a long enough set-up already, and in the games my club has played, the vast majority of the time we go all-in on our Masters upgrades just to get them back to resembling the way they previously played.

Also... my beloved Ortegas just feel so plain now... My favorite crew is a ghost of its former self, and that just feels annoying.

This was what I was pretty worried of... reminds me of some terrible Sonic (the hedgehog) game I played ages ago, where it took 1/3 of the game so you didn't need to fight your terrible basic abilities just to play. Hopefully the playtest will encourage more innate stuff and fewer upgrades (the mechanic itself isn't that much of a problem, but less of it and more in the core seems like a better approach).

Also, too bad, re: loosing flavor

Well, even as someone who is critical of the second edition, this is an issue that seems to come up regularly but many struggle to put clearly into words; what is "flavour"?

Does "flavour" need to be represented mechanically in full, or can fluff cover the flavour while the mechanics are streamlined to work with minimal issues?

Is Flavour just what a figure does? Papa still acts recklessly and blows stuff (and himself) up, is he less flavourful because those actions are done in a more concise fashion? Perdita still shoots plenty, and with good figure positioning, can still be incredibly light on her feet. While I won't argue that she lost a few things (even after upgrades), how much of that text was "flavour"?

I hope this isn't coming across as snide or condescending, I mean it sincerely. Malifaux is my first miniatures game, and it seems to be a very heavy meta-question; just what insubstantial quality is "flavour" for such a game? The models are still there (and the plastic sculpts look good), many of the rules seem to be tightened up (even if I'm not a fan of all the soulstone changes, the Charge rules are a hell of a lot better), but I'm not sure that something being different or done without breaking out the six point font is necessarily bad.

Perhaps I'm conflating things, and I've heard it said that a single Malifaux figure might have as many rules as an entire army in some other games, but wary as I am, hostile as my group is, I'm trying to see things from both sides and make up my mind accordingly, rather than just seeing some of the old hands on various forums scoff and say "oh, the flavour is gone" while everyone nods and tisks and tuts. :-P

Valid questions.

Add another one to your list: is flavour not allowed to change? We grow up, our tastes change, yet we still enjoy life. The game will change, and we'll change with it, if we still find something to enjoy in it.

Kirai in particular has a whole slew of rules just for herself. If they can make her true to her fluff (being a spirit of vengeance) while streamlining her rules, then great. If she changes drastically, then I will reserve my judgement until I see what they made of her. If the change is unconvincing, then I'm sure I'll find another Master. But I will miss her japanese folklore.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
True about the peons. That might bar them from having upgrades. What I meant was put a bit more onto their card, to free up space on Kirai's.

Masters can have three upgrades, Henchman can have two upgrades, and Enforcers can have a single upgrade.

Minions and Peons - the vast majority of the models - can't have any upgrades at all.



Re: Set up times

We've found that after a few games, the set up time for 2.0 is actually quite a bit less than 1.5. For the most part, this has to do with a narrowed Strategy list and the way that schemes are now generated; instead of having a huge list of schemes to choose from every game, you generate four to five random schemes that both players choose from. It adds a bit of strategy, as you have a small list of options as to what you can do and what your opponent might be trying to do, and a few of the strategies are actually traps that you can lure your opponent into and/or have to watch out for. It's been fun so far.



Re: Kirai

I'm sure that she'll turn out just fine. She might not be able to do everything she could in 1.5, but she'll probably still retain her flavor. Leveticus was one of the most complicated masters to play in 1.5, but they've got him down to the point where he still takes skill to use, but doesn't require an internet tactica to explain how he works.

The second wave Masters/Henchmen seem to be the ones with the slightly "wonky" mechanics (such as Kirai, Collette, and the Dreamer), as opposed to the more "standard" first wave characters.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
be54a70c538795ff8a19a8f10b8c85de.jpeg]Unfortunately like half of Jacob's signature screw is in that list (Tannin, Graves, Depleted) and Stitched Together, so it makes him a bit harder to test and contributes to the weaker feel I get from him vs the other masters.

The Illuminated and Beckoners are both pretty solid, though, and Hungering Darkness is an absolute beast on the table. They may not have all of their pieces yet, but I have no complaints about the models they do have right now.

 Forar wrote:
Well, even as someone who is critical of the second edition, this is an issue that seems to come up regularly but many struggle to put clearly into words; what is "flavour"?

Does "flavour" need to be represented mechanically in full, or can fluff cover the flavour while the mechanics are streamlined to work with minimal issues?

Is Flavour just what a figure does? Papa still acts recklessly and blows stuff (and himself) up, is he less flavourful because those actions are done in a more concise fashion? Perdita still shoots plenty, and with good figure positioning, can still be incredibly light on her feet. While I won't argue that she lost a few things (even after upgrades), how much of that text was "flavour"?

I hope this isn't coming across as snide or condescending, I mean it sincerely. Malifaux is my first miniatures game, and it seems to be a very heavy meta-question; just what insubstantial quality is "flavour" for such a game? The models are still there (and the plastic sculpts look good), many of the rules seem to be tightened up (even if I'm not a fan of all the soulstone changes, the Charge rules are a hell of a lot better), but I'm not sure that something being different or done without breaking out the six point font is necessarily bad.

Perhaps I'm conflating things, and I've heard it said that a single Malifaux figure might have as many rules as an entire army in some other games, but wary as I am, hostile as my group is, I'm trying to see things from both sides and make up my mind accordingly, rather than just seeing some of the old hands on various forums scoff and say "oh, the flavour is gone" while everyone nods and tisks and tuts. :-P

I think the line I bolded pegs where you perspective is coming from. In a whole world of miniature war-gaming, where mechanics rule the day, and usually larger scale games just see units blurring together, filling one function only, etc... Malifaux WAS refreshing. Every unit had some many things that only they could innately do, and the interplay between these options gave over-all "flavor".

Now, fluff means nothing to me when i'm several rounds into a game... so I don't care if Nino is a legendary sniper in some badly written fan-fic.... I care about how he is represented as a play-piece.

As it stands, modular "flavor" via war-gear is just busy-work to me, and isn't fun. Thus far my group and I have hated the extra time wasted turning fairly bland units back into what they already were.

And ultimately the other rules changes, in general, are good ones... Problem is, going a war-gear route added nothing that we can see thus far, except a time-sink, and less intimidating unit cards for some hypothetical "casual" audience.

We partake in an expensive, ultimately geeky hobby... There ARE no "casual" players, and accessibility is moot.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
And ultimately the other rules changes, in general, are good ones... Problem is, going a war-gear route added nothing that we can see thus far, except a time-sink, and less intimidating unit cards for some hypothetical "casual" audience.

We partake in an expensive, ultimately geeky hobby... There ARE no "casual" players, and accessibility is moot.

You might want to get out a slightly narrower brush there.

Also, I'm intending to run a Malifaux league at the local club when the rules are out, so I think there just might be some of these mythical casual players, and they might also prefer it to be accessible.

I'm curious as to what a miniatures "casual" looks like. In the video-game world, it is obvious... but in a hobby where the start-up of essentially any game involves buying relatively pricey-pieces and assembling/gluing tiny components... you'll likely already warded off soccer moms, and frat-boys.

The description of what a miniatures "casual" is a topic for a different thread, of which you're welcome to start.

The issue of flavor, in relation to Malifaux, is a tricky thing to pinpoint Forar, as it changes from person to person, but NewTruth touches on it. Malifaux is your first miniatures game, and unlike the majority of us here, you've never gone through wargear upgrades from other game systems (namely 40k and Warhammer Fantasy). The way these games tend to work out is that people will eventually figure out what wargear upgrades will create the best army available for the points, getting the most efficient pieces of wargear for the cheapest price.

While you could easily just say, "But Alf in Malifaux there were still people that had the same lists because people found out what worked the best." This is true, but each piece in those crews had a specific feeling and flavor to it. Nicodem was a fun master because instead of being able to summon a few key pieces of undead models, he could also swarm the board with cheap mindless zombies*. Now he has to take a wargear upgrade to do this, what it it turns out that such a thing isn't worth it to take? Your "casual" Nicodem player will probably still take it, but the guy who plays weekly, reads the forums, probably won't why? Because if he does take that upgrade, he's losing out on a potentially better upgrade.

Now with that being said, I trust Wyrd to handle this well and to prevent such things, but that is mostly what players mean when they say that the flavor is being taken out. While originally, my Pandora may have been exactly the same as every other Pandora out there, I played her over say Zoraida because I liked the tricks that she could do that Zoe coudn't. Now both of the masters have lost bits and pieces of what made them "them" and have been given the option of giving themselves things that can make them seem similar to each other. When you market a game as a "character driven skirmish" game, you would hope that the models in the game still have character.

It's all based on opinion anyways, and as always... to each their own.

* - Nicodem is a fun master, but was only used as an example regardless of whether or not people think he's a great master or not.

 Alfndrate wrote:
The description of what a miniatures "casual" is a topic for a different thread, of which you're welcome to start.

The issue of flavor, in relation to Malifaux, is a tricky thing to pinpoint Forar, as it changes from person to person, but NewTruth touches on it. Malifaux is your first miniatures game, and unlike the majority of us here, you've never gone through wargear upgrades from other game systems (namely 40k and Warhammer Fantasy). The way these games tend to work out is that people will eventually figure out what wargear upgrades will create the best army available for the points, getting the most efficient pieces of wargear for the cheapest price.

While you could easily just say, "But Alf in Malifaux there were still people that had the same lists because people found out what worked the best." This is true, but each piece in those crews had a specific feeling and flavor to it. Nicodem was a fun master because instead of being able to summon a few key pieces of undead models, he could also swarm the board with cheap mindless zombies*. Now he has to take a wargear upgrade to do this, what it it turns out that such a thing isn't worth it to take? Your "casual" Nicodem player will probably still take it, but the guy who plays weekly, reads the forums, probably won't why? Because if he does take that upgrade, he's losing out on a potentially better upgrade.

Are you testing the 2E rules and giving feedback on changes you think would make the game better, such as over / under priced upgrades? The open beta is still going on.

 Alfndrate wrote:
Now with that being said, I trust Wyrd to handle this well and to prevent such things, but that is mostly what players mean when they say that the flavor is being taken out. While originally, my Pandora may have been exactly the same as every other Pandora out there, I played her over say Zoraida because I liked the tricks that she could do that Zoe coudn't. Now both of the masters have lost bits and pieces of what made them "them" and have been given the option of giving themselves things that can make them seem similar to each other. When you market a game as a "character driven skirmish" game, you would hope that the models in the game still have character.

It's all based on opinion anyways, and as always... to each their own.

* - Nicodem is a fun master, but was only used as an example regardless of whether or not people think he's a great master or not.

I was sceptical, but the thing that changed my mind about upgrades was getting out of the mindset that I had to faithfully reproduce 1E Masters, and realising that I now had different options within the same character--Zoraida can be played as a peerless card-draw generator, a disruptor or a mobile skirmisher. I could do more than one of those roles, but do I want to for this game? Even if she's not doing all the stuff in one particular game that she did in 1E, how many Masters really used all the stuff on their card in the same game?

By the by, apart from upgrades, I'd argue that the dual faction rules adds a ton of character to crews, with things like Zoraida leading Gremlins or McMourning as an agent of the Guild.

 Elemental wrote:
Are you testing the 2E rules and giving feedback on changes you think would make the game better, such as over / under priced upgrades? The open beta is still going on.

I have not gotten through more than one or two games when the rules came out (we're what 4 rules updates in from that?) because I can't get anyone to play M2E with me. The players in my group are adamantly against 2nd edition and have not liked the over arching concepts of the new edition.

I was skeptical, but the thing that changed my mind about upgrades was getting out of the mindset that I had to faithfully reproduce 1E Masters, and realising that I now had different options within the same character--Zoraida can be played as a peerless card-draw generator, a disruptor or a mobile skirmisher. I could do more than one of those roles, but do I want to for this game? Even if she's not doing all the stuff in one particular game that she did in 1E, how many Masters really used all the stuff on their card in the same game?

By the by, apart from upgrades, I'd argue that the dual faction rules adds a ton of character to crews, with things like Zoraida leading Gremlins or McMourning as an agent of the Guild.

Trying to recreate my favorite master isn't what I'm trying to do with upgrades, but I'm trying to find something that makes Pandora... Pandora, my Wp duel loving master that makes it next to impossible to get within a foot of her. She still has plenty of that flavor, but the way I, personally, view upgrades in wargames is that they lead to "characters" being the same thing because people have found what works the best and what isn't worth taking. I just think that the character aspect of "character driven skirmish" game is disappearing. And for what it's worth, I found myself using almost every one of Pandora's or Lynch's abilities because there were times when I couldn't safely pull off a Pacify or Incite chain and I would instead hit a model that would be within striking distance, and I'd need it to make a Wp test every time it wanted to do something (which I think is the least used ability on her card).

I would like to note that I hope this doesn't come across as bashing Wyrd or Malifaux, because that's not what I'm trying to accomplish. I'm just not excited about the new edition and what I've experienced with it.

 Alfndrate wrote:
I have not gotten through more than one or two games when the rules came out (we're what 4 rules updates in from that?) because I can't get anyone to play M2E with me. The players in my group are adamantly against 2nd edition and have not liked the over arching concepts of the new edition.

Huh, you'd think they'd be enthusiastic about a chance to shape the new direction, then. But without meaning to be dismissive, you can't judge a game from reading the rules alone.

 Alfndrate wrote:

Trying to recreate my favorite master isn't what I'm trying to do with upgrades, but I'm trying to find something that makes Pandora... Pandora, my Wp duel loving master that makes it next to impossible to get within a foot of her. She still has plenty of that flavor, but the way I, personally, view upgrades in wargames is that they lead to "characters" being the same thing because people have found what works the best and what isn't worth taking. I just think that the character aspect of "character driven skirmish" game is disappearing.

But in 1E, surely that just applied to whole models which didn't see table time because people had figured out that other things worked better at the same role. And again, if the upgrades are balanced, then "best" depends on matchup and intended tactics. Also, it's an insurance system in that if anyone does come up underpowered, then future upgrades can remedy that. Which is obviously imperfect, but still better than having to release new models (ie, the Mobile Toolkit to give Ramos his desperately needed tome on casting) to shore up old ones.

Pandora's an odd case, because I can understand them wanting not to put her in the awful "stop your opponent from playing the game" territory, which she sometimes could be in 1E.