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Anyone got experience running predators with all lascannons in 6th edition?

I want to include a decent dedicated anti-tank unit in my CSM army, but havocs and oblits are not units I fancy using much.

Needz urgent halp here.

AV 11 sides?

I use predators over havocs as I think they are great buys. They are also quite durable.

If you don't like Havocs or Oblits, then Predators are probably a good choice. They're cheap and bring decent firepower. You might want to consider just using Lascannon sponsons. The autocannon is decent against light armor and it's much more expensive to upgrade (40 points for 2 lascannons or 25 points to exchange an autocannon for a single TL lascannon).

The biggest problem I could see...you probably won't have very good armor saturation. You only have 3 vehicles outside of heavy support (rhinos, hellbrutes, and heldrakes). Unless you want to bring Hellbrutes or a few Rhinos, even AV13 Predators won't last long.

If you're just looking for a good dedicated anti-tank unit, you could also consider chaos bikes with meltaguns. They're extremely cheap (3 bikes with 2 meltas and a meltabomb is under 100 points), they're fast, and they're significantly better at destroying vehicles (albeit at a shorter range).

No catch from what I can see. All the cheese-heads in my local area have added two triple-las preds to their CSM armies since the latest dex. Hell, I even just bought one.

No catch.
Vs. Havocs, it's more about armor or infantry saturation in the rest of your list.
Vs. Oblits, you lose out on mobile firepower and weapon options but gain lascannon firepower density

140 points of goodness from my perspective.

Siphen wrote:
The biggest problem I could see...you probably won't have very good armor saturation. You only have 3 vehicles outside of heavy support (rhinos, hellbrutes, and heldrakes). Unless you want to bring Hellbrutes or a few Rhinos, even AV13 Predators won't last long.

Thanks for the good advice.

I planned on getting 2 preds (for redundancy) and a couple of Rhinos for my Noise marines.

Plus I got some great throw away bait units, AKA spawns. They should take some of the heat off the preds.

Siphen wrote:
The biggest problem I could see...you probably won't have very good armor saturation. You only have 3 vehicles outside of heavy support (rhinos, hellbrutes, and heldrakes). Unless you want to bring Hellbrutes or a few Rhinos, even AV13 Predators won't last long..

Stick them behind an ADL. You will find the 4+ cover save makes AV 13 tougher than AV 14 out in the open. Cracking AV 13 with a 4+ cover save is a damn hard nut to crack. Its a heck of a lot harder than cracking 5 havocs.

Edit : Necron flyers are the exception. They crack both with little or no problem.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Siphen wrote:
The biggest problem I could see...you probably won't have very good armor saturation. You only have 3 vehicles outside of heavy support (rhinos, hellbrutes, and heldrakes). Unless you want to bring Hellbrutes or a few Rhinos, even AV13 Predators won't last long..

Stick them behind an ADL. You will find the 4+ cover save makes AV 13 tougher than AV 14 out in the open. Cracking AV 13 with a 4+ cover save is a damn hard nut to crack. Its a heck of a lot harder than cracking 5 havocs.

Edit : Necron flyers are the exception. They crack both with little or no problem.

Gotta be careful with the ADL and predators, you sometimes have issues with the sponsons and LOS due to the wall being too high.

I love the twin linked LC for when you REALLY need to blow up armor.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Anyone got experience running predators with all lascannons in 6th edition?

I want to include a decent dedicated anti-tank unit in my CSM army, but havocs and oblits are not units I fancy using much.

Needz urgent halp here.

Since the debate is usually between havocs, oblits and predators you just solved the question for yourself.

Despite the lascannon being the best long range, anti-tank weapon that is readily available, it's still not that great at taking down armor. Against annihilation barges you have a 1/3 chance after a hit to penetrate the armor. Then they get jink. Then you have a 1/3 chance to blow it up. The best way to take down armor is still melta guns.

As I said the lascannon is the best long range anti-tank weapon, that is especially true for light armor. So you don't bring lascannons to take down heavy armor (anything necron, leman russes, other predators, land raiders). You bring them to take care of the medium/light stuff and monstrous creatures.

You will still need some melta guns/bombs to take care of the actual armor.

None of these units exist in a vacuum. You need to think about your whole army when making every unit selection. Does a tank that has to stay still to make full use of its firepower fit into your army?

What is everyone's favorite configuration?

Mine is Autocannon with Lascannon sponsons.

Same, I love mine with autocannon and lascannon sponsons, and I run 2 in one of my lists. Just make sure you bubble wrap them at the start of the game vs potential drop pods and they will do great. Even side armor 11 usually isn't an issue because they usually only present front armor towards firing.

Yeah, there's some issues with sponsons and Aegis Defense lines. But baring that issue, they are great! Often, stuff you are firing at may get cover saves regardless, because of night fight, because of intervening troops, because they are already in cover, so it doesn't matter. So I still stick them behind an Aegis most of the time. A 5+ cover save isn't much and won't save you. But a 4+ from the Aegis makes a difference!

Siphen wrote:
The biggest problem I could see...you probably won't have very good armor saturation. You only have 3 vehicles outside of heavy support (rhinos, hellbrutes, and heldrakes). Unless you want to bring Hellbrutes or a few Rhinos, even AV13 Predators won't last long.

This is pretty much the only 'catch' with CSM Preds. That and one roll on the vehicle damage chart can ruin your Preds' day. A Havoc Squad or Oblits could survive that one MG shot that slags your Pred.

If you bubble wrap properly, Melta guns aren't going to get within the short range that allows them to roll 2d6 on a pen result. If you aren't in short range, they are not really that scary. A Str 8 melta shot needs to roll a 6 in order to pen AV 13. Good luck trying.

I make sure I bubble wrap such that nobody is getting within 6 inches of my 2 predator tanks. Its why cultists are such a great troop choice. Slap a lord in them, they are fearless, plus they are so cheap that you can easily get 35 of them, which is more than enough to bubble wrap your tanks.

The catch with running Predators, is basically the same problem you run into with running Vindicators.. If you're going to run a Predator, you need to have a minimum of 2 to be efficient.

Chances are your opponent is going to say to himself "That tank has Lascannons, it MUST die" and will focus the crap out of it.. Hence why having 2 is the best way to field them so I can soak up fire, and the other can have a good solid turn to try and make their point values worth having been taken.

Personally, I try to run 2, fully upg for LC.. yeah its a pain cuz of that Turret cost but honestly, if you come across a fast vehicle and you can't get your sponsons locked onto it due to it being too close, you have your guaranteed turret with LOS.

the second reason for running 2 is to park them side by side. that way your opponent can't see their side armor and force them to target the front. AV13 is surprisingly difficult to crack when you consider that your opponent has to waste a fair bit of powerful shots to get a pen. And even then, the possibilities of being blown up are relatively small.

If you REALLY want to guarantee their safety, Purchase Land Raiders for screening, and not only do you get AV14 walls, but you can also screen interfering models as a cover save for your predators while only sacrificing 1 sponson at most from firing PLUS! If you take Terminators, the Land Raider can be a Dedicated Transport and free up the available Heavy support slot

There isn't really a "catch" or "problem" with preds, but at the end of the day your looking at on average of only causing 2-3 wounds a turn. Now that most lists dont have a lot of light armour they just don't bring the Killyness that I think you need in 6th edition.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Anyone got experience running predators with all lascannons in 6th edition?

I want to include a decent dedicated anti-tank unit in my CSM army, but havocs and oblits are not units I fancy using much.

Needz urgent halp here.

I ran 3 of them few months back. Against Necrons. Annihilated his Stalker and Spyder by turn 1. Pretty devastating.

The trick with predators is always keep their front armour of AV 13 against your enemy. Depending on opponent. You may wanna switch out the str 7 heavy 2 of Autocannon with a twin linked lascannon.
With 2 lascannon sponson. hitting on 3s. That is very scary. Especially when you field a few of them.

I always got for 3 lascannon and it has worked well early game for me so far. They dont usually stay around long, your opponent will always take them out first. The last game i had, the crytek deep strike into my deployment zone and haywired 2 of them to death. lol. But. with 140 points a piece. They've done a lot of damage. 1 immobilised command barge, 1 dead doomsday ark, 1 dead spyder and 1 dead stalker. They have absorbed a decent amount of fire power as well.

I admit that is also some good rolling on my side. But. Usually they cause some havoc before going down.

Got 3 more predators and I have 6 now. Planning to run them in bigger games. thats 18 shots of lascannon. Imagine the devastation.

FOR THE DARK GODS.

Lascannon sponsons on predators are the cheapest way we can get lascannons. And sometimes, one long range Str 9 shot at AP2 can achieve more than several shots of Str 7. And they ID toughness 4 as well.

I find autocannon with lascannon sponsons the most efficient point wise. Cheaper than pure tri las. Plus you get 4 shots, with the potential for 4 hits. Spending 115 points to get 2 str 7 and 2 str 9 potential hits is cheap by my book. More importantly, they can be used against fliers if need be as well. Something which the Vindicator can't do. One lucky shot with the lascannon may do more than that 4 twin linked shots with a quad gun towards bringing down an AV 12 flier.

I like fielding the old autocannon heavy bolter variety, cheap as anything, and it tends to be ignored for most of the battle, all whilst pumping out its 8 shots per turn. Works best against non-MEQ opponents.

I run AC/LC sponsons for the versatility and to make it cheap. To be honest, I think two Predators and a Oblit squad with VotLW and MoN will give you all the long range firepower you want. The Predators are consistent and the Oblits give you the versatility you need. All you need is two or three of them.

There are two big drawbacks to the Pred. First is the fact that to give it a cover save, your probably taking away a weapon (lascannon). The second is that you can't move and fire effectively. If you want your Preds to be moving up to support your Rhinos, don't even bother putting sponsons on them, as snap firing them at 6's (well, snap firing all but 1 of 3 weapons, you choose). Specially if this is your long range AT, then the only choice for an attacking Pred is the turret TLed LC.

Now that we have this out of the way, one should consider what equipment upgrades are worth it. Lets look at some of the better ones, or ones that sound good, but probably are not worth it.

Demonic Possession
Your a tank and you don't carry guys that can be eaten. Being able to ignore snap fire effects from Crew Shaken and Stunned doesn't sound to bad, but you have to remember that most things getting through your armor will have a +1 or +2 to the roll due to AP, effectively ignoring this ability, which also causes you to fire at BS 3. I am leaning to this not being worth the points.

Warpflame Gargoyles
This gives your weapons the Soul Blaze property (pg 42, BRB). This is something I actually kinda like, as it feels like it might make my Predator a little more effective against hoards as it gives me 4 chances. The problem is this happens at the end of the turn and only has a 50% chance to do 1-3 extra wounds. But if you do get some wounds, they stay on fire! Still, it is super cheap but worthless against vehicles and tougher units and a unit can only be effected by a single Soul Blaze counter at a time. If it could stack it might make it a better choice.

Havoc Launcher
When the AC doesn't give you enough anti-hoard and your not satisfied with the Gargoyles as an option. For a bigger cost you can add a TLed Str 5 blast with 48" range. I keep wanting to add this to my Predators, I really do. But between melta bombs, combi weapons, and the like for my champs, I just do not have the points. If your using your Predators for AT, this is a wasted option, and I use mine for AT. If only GW added in a rule that a tank with a turret could fire on two targets, but alas. I think this could be a good option if you have the points for it and if your making a all-comers list.

Dirge Caster
I feel this is a under-used bit of equipment. If your camping your Predator and someone DSs in, you want to probably kill them as quickly as possible, if anything so they can't shoot because they are in CC. Now you don't have to worry about over-watch fire. IF your list is a Berserker list and your Predators are attacking, this is a good option. I find it very situational and not a must have. The good thing is it is cheap to make it viable.

Destroyer Blades
Your playing a Berserker list and your doing the Predators with a TLed LC Turret that is driving up attacking. If that is your list, then throwing on equipment upgrades on your Predator like this should be very tempting. Tank shock away.

Destroyer Blades and I feel the rest of the upgrades are very situational and not for most people. You have to be playing a pretty aggressive list to have Destroyer Blades, Demonic Possession, Dirge Caster, and a Dozer Blade. That 40pts in upgrades suddenly doesn't make the Predator a cheap fire support vehicle anymore (now a 140pts). But it is very specialized and pretty good at what it does, specially with a hoard of Zerkers behind it. But the argument is that 40pts could be another Berserker or two per tank. That you can Tank Shock without the Blades. That you just don't get a re-roll for the Dozer blade. That they will have to roll a 1 on a pen to make demonic possession worth it, and not your hitting much more often at BS 4 TLed. And at last, that they are only hitting on 6s when they do over-watch. That is what equipment does... take something that your uncertain about and take away that uncertainty. I get Icons of Vengeance for every unit that I can that isn't Fearless just so I do not fail a Leadership test. Could I just run VotLW instead or cheaper? Could I just not even bother with that? Sure, at the end of the day going over Ld 9 is not going to happen often, but that one time... when it really counts. I just do not want to leave that to chance.

Hope this helps, good luck!

HML/AC/LC is a cheap TAC option that rarely finds itself without a valid target.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Same, I love mine with autocannon and lascannon sponsons, and I run 2 in one of my lists. Just make sure you bubble wrap them at the start of the game vs potential drop pods and they will do great. Even side armor 11 usually isn't an issue because they usually only present front armor towards firing.

Yeah, there's some issues with sponsons and Aegis Defense lines. But baring that issue, they are great! Often, stuff you are firing at may get cover saves regardless, because of night fight, because of intervening troops, because they are already in cover, so it doesn't matter. So I still stick them behind an Aegis most of the time. A 5+ cover save isn't much and won't save you. But a 4+ from the Aegis makes a difference!

I didn't realize sponsons are obscured by an ADL, that's really kind of depressing. Kind of makes me feel like reworking me gunline.

Yeah, I was brining it up on the ADL subject. If you think about it, if LoS is blocked to the gun, you can't fire the gun. If someone could find me a rule that says models in base contact with a ADL can ignore LoS through it, that would be awesome. Maybe I will drop a thread on the rules question forum.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Anyone got experience running predators with all lascannons in 6th edition?

I want to include a decent dedicated anti-tank unit in my CSM army, but havocs and oblits are not units I fancy using much.

Needz urgent halp here.

There isn't any catch. Tri-las Predators are an excellent unit for Chaos Marines and Dark Angels. I would never take Havocs because IMO Predators do the same thing much, much better.

I love my maulerfiends too much but I also play a list where everything except my 5 man noise marine squads move relay fast like spawn, seekers daemonettes and bikers. It's a wall of holy crap that's fast.

 BlkTom wrote:
Yeah, I was brining it up on the ADL subject. If you think about it, if LoS is blocked to the gun, you can't fire the gun. If someone could find me a rule that says models in base contact with a ADL can ignore LoS through it, that would be awesome. Maybe I will drop a thread on the rules question forum.

Actually I would love to know the result for this.

I mean, the ADL has slits and openings for troops to fire through. Its not exactly a solid wall. When a tank is in ruins, with windows, it can fire out through those right?

Also, what if I equip my tank with a twin linked lascannon and heavy bolter sponsons. The turret is definitely not blocked. And if you argue that infantry can fire guns through an ADL, then what about a heavy bolter?

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 BlkTom wrote:
Yeah, I was brining it up on the ADL subject. If you think about it, if LoS is blocked to the gun, you can't fire the gun. If someone could find me a rule that says models in base contact with a ADL can ignore LoS through it, that would be awesome. Maybe I will drop a thread on the rules question forum.

Actually I would love to know the result for this.

I mean, the ADL has slits and openings for troops to fire through. Its not exactly a solid wall. When a tank is in ruins, with windows, it can fire out through those right?

Also, what if I equip my tank with a twin linked lascannon and heavy bolter sponsons. The turret is definitely not blocked. And if you argue that infantry can fire guns through an ADL, then what about a heavy bolter?

Here is the link to the thread I added on about it. I felt it would have been silly to start a new thread with the same title.

So far it is looking like if LoS is broken, it can not fire through it.

Remember your predator only needs 25% of it covered to get full cover saves.

You can always keep your predator slightly elevated on a piece of terrain to assist. You can also stick him on the corner to assist.

Its also the high sections of the ADL that will get you. Depending on your opponents placement, you may or may not have issues.

Tri-las is too expensive. I always do AC/LC stationary. I usually take HML just to cover all areas in case opponent brings very little armour. I still shoot it at armour though in the hopes it scatters onto some infantry.