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With all the talk of the Emperor beating a C'Tan shard, I need to ask; Are all C'Tan shards equal? Could there not be larger/smaller, more/less powerful shards containing a greater/lesser essence of an individual C'Tan?
If this is the case, then the entire argument changes.
Just Dave wrote: Well there appears to be power in believing - or to a greater extent worshipping - in 40k, which MAY extend over to the Void Dragon?
But doesn't that generally only apply to Warp-Sensitive beings? I would think things like emotion, and what not wouldn't have any kind of effect on a C'tan.
That's what I suspected, but it was an interesting idea...
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: With all the talk of the Emperor beating a C'Tan shard, I need to ask; Are all C'Tan shards equal? Could there not be larger/smaller, more/less powerful shards containing a greater/lesser essence of an individual C'Tan? If this is the case, then the entire argument changes.
I think it's more than just probable that the C'Tan vary greatly in power level, and their power levels themselves are directly connected to how much they've consumed recently (in a very Galactus-esque way).
They're still the masters of the Materium to me though, I mean simply through how powerful their -shards- are now, and blanket statements from the Codex that talk about their power levels, it's quite obvious they have no equal:
Spoiler:
"Glutted on the life force of the Necrontyr, the empowered C'Tan were nigh unstoppable and unleashed forces beyond comprehension. Planets were razed, suns extinguished, and whole systems devoured by black holes called into being by the reality warping powers of the star gods."
"The Necrons focused the unimaginable energies of the living universe into weapons too mighty for even the C'Tan to endure. Alas the C'Tan were immortal star spawn, part of the fundamental fabric of actuality, and therefore nigh impossible to destroy"
"Even in their reduced and wholly fettered state, C'Tan Shards ar ebeings of near-unlimited power. They can manifest energy blasts, control the minds of lesser beings, manipulate the flow of time, and banish foes to alternate realities. Indeed, a C'Tan SHard's abilities are limited only by two things: its imagination - which is immense - and glimmering memories of the being from which it was severed.
"C'Tan Shards are beings of reality-warping power."
These are blanket statements about all C'Tan, I'm thinking even with differing power levels, I doubt anything in the material universe could rival the weakest fully empowered C'Tan.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/05/03 14:01:27
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: With all the talk of the Emperor beating a C'Tan shard, I need to ask; Are all C'Tan shards equal? Could there not be larger/smaller, more/less powerful shards containing a greater/lesser essence of an individual C'Tan?
If this is the case, then the entire argument changes.
That still doesn't change the fact that the Emperor had to use a deus ex machina to beat a simple fragment of the Void Dragon, so the whole thing would work him over. And I'd say no C'tan is more than perhaps a twelfth complete, save for maybe the Outsider who may or may not still be intact. But of course the Outsider is irrelevant until he's off his vacation to the nuthouse.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: With all the talk of the Emperor beating a C'Tan shard, I need to ask; Are all C'Tan shards equal? Could there not be larger/smaller, more/less powerful shards containing a greater/lesser essence of an individual C'Tan?
If this is the case, then the entire argument changes.
That still doesn't change the fact that the Emperor had to use a deus ex machina to beat a simple fragment of the Void Dragon, so the whole thing would work him over. And I'd say no C'tan is more than perhaps a twelfth complete, save for maybe the Outsider who may or may not still be intact. But of course the Outsider is irrelevant until he's off his vacation to the nuthouse.
They were all shattered into millions of Shards, save the Flayer who was completely destroyed.
I'm sure no shard is equal to one another, and it may have been a powerful Shard, but it is still just a Fragment of the C'tan.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: With all the talk of the Emperor beating a C'Tan shard, I need to ask; Are all C'Tan shards equal? Could there not be larger/smaller, more/less powerful shards containing a greater/lesser essence of an individual C'Tan?
If this is the case, then the entire argument changes.
Even so the C'Tan got shattered by their supposed servants. Do you think Empy could have suffered that? Humans dethroning him. That speaks to them as not too good, I mean godlike creatures shouldn't be able to be hurt by anything less than themselves.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: With all the talk of the Emperor beating a C'Tan shard, I need to ask; Are all C'Tan shards equal? Could there not be larger/smaller, more/less powerful shards containing a greater/lesser essence of an individual C'Tan?
If this is the case, then the entire argument changes.
Even so the C'Tan got shattered by their supposed servants. Do you think Empy could have suffered that? Humans dethroning him. That speaks to them as not too good, I mean godlike creatures shouldn't be able to be hurt by anything less than themselves.
Well the C'Tan had just finished wiping out the Old Ones, you know, the ones that were essentially gods, they were weakened. It took the Necron technology (that is so far beyond anything the IoM can ever even dream up, it's not even funny) to use "the unimaginable energies of the living universe into weapons too mighty for even the C'Tan to endure. Alas the C'Tan were immortal star spawn, part of the fundamental fabric of actuality, and therefore nigh impossible to destroy"
So yeah. The Emp. would've most likely been dead 50 times over.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: With all the talk of the Emperor beating a C'Tan shard, I need to ask; Are all C'Tan shards equal? Could there not be larger/smaller, more/less powerful shards containing a greater/lesser essence of an individual C'Tan?
If this is the case, then the entire argument changes.
Even so the C'Tan got shattered by their supposed servants. Do you think Empy could have suffered that? Humans dethroning him. That speaks to them as not too good, I mean godlike creatures shouldn't be able to be hurt by anything less than themselves.
Putting the way you are, is being a bit disingenuous. The C'tan were shattered by the most technologically advanced race the galaxy has ever seen, That were in immortal bodies and fighting in unison. This is was also after they were weakned wiping out the Old ones, which could be considered demi-gods in their own way. It Took millions of Necrons to accomplish this.
Seriously though, the C'tan were quoted has causing entire Systems to be consumed by black holes, that they summoned on a whim. The Emperor has got nothing on fully powered C'tan.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: With all the talk of the Emperor beating a C'Tan shard, I need to ask; Are all C'Tan shards equal? Could there not be larger/smaller, more/less powerful shards containing a greater/lesser essence of an individual C'Tan?
If this is the case, then the entire argument changes.
Even so the C'Tan got shattered by their supposed servants. Do you think Empy could have suffered that? Humans dethroning him. That speaks to them as not too good, I mean godlike creatures shouldn't be able to be hurt by anything less than themselves.
Well the C'Tan had just finished wiping out the Old Ones, you know, the ones that were essentially gods, they were weakened. It took the Necron technology (that is so far beyond anything the IoM can ever even dream up, it's not even funny) to use "the unimaginable energies of the living universe into weapons too mighty for even the C'Tan to endure. Alas the C'Tan were immortal star spawn, part of the fundamental fabric of actuality, and therefore nigh impossible to destroy"
So yeah. The Emp. would've most likely been dead 50 times over.
Of laughing as they whiffed their attacks.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: With all the talk of the Emperor beating a C'Tan shard, I need to ask; Are all C'Tan shards equal? Could there not be larger/smaller, more/less powerful shards containing a greater/lesser essence of an individual C'Tan?
If this is the case, then the entire argument changes.
Even so the C'Tan got shattered by their supposed servants. Do you think Empy could have suffered that? Humans dethroning him. That speaks to them as not too good, I mean godlike creatures shouldn't be able to be hurt by anything less than themselves.
Well the C'Tan had just finished wiping out the Old Ones, you know, the ones that were essentially gods, they were weakened. It took the Necron technology (that is so far beyond anything the IoM can ever even dream up, it's not even funny) to use "the unimaginable energies of the living universe into weapons too mighty for even the C'Tan to endure. Alas the C'Tan were immortal star spawn, part of the fundamental fabric of actuality, and therefore nigh impossible to destroy"
So yeah. The Emp. would've most likely been dead 50 times over.
Of laughing as they whiffed their attacks.
It's pretty clear that you are just trolling this thread, and adding nothing constructive Please come back when you actually have something to substantiate your ludicrous position.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: With all the talk of the Emperor beating a C'Tan shard, I need to ask; Are all C'Tan shards equal? Could there not be larger/smaller, more/less powerful shards containing a greater/lesser essence of an individual C'Tan?
If this is the case, then the entire argument changes.
Even so the C'Tan got shattered by their supposed servants. Do you think Empy could have suffered that? Humans dethroning him. That speaks to them as not too good, I mean godlike creatures shouldn't be able to be hurt by anything less than themselves.
Well the C'Tan had just finished wiping out the Old Ones, you know, the ones that were essentially gods, they were weakened. It took the Necron technology (that is so far beyond anything the IoM can ever even dream up, it's not even funny) to use "the unimaginable energies of the living universe into weapons too mighty for even the C'Tan to endure. Alas the C'Tan were immortal star spawn, part of the fundamental fabric of actuality, and therefore nigh impossible to destroy"
So yeah. The Emp. would've most likely been dead 50 times over.
Sounds like Beavis is just trying to fanboy his way out of this one. I think it's pretty explicit that the Emperor, mighty though he is, is completely outmatched by the capabilities of a C'tan who are on a completely different level of power. Being able to manipulate the fundamental forces of the material plane without the drawbacks of using the warp and on a whim. I mean when even complete dismemberment via shards wasn't enough to kill most of them I think it demonstrates how "mortal" the Emperor really is in comparison because I highly doubt even Empy here could survive having every portion of his body torn asunder and being scattered throughout the galaxy. If it was otherwise why would the physical punishment he took from Horus make such an impact on his well-being? (i.e. him suffering from his arm being torn off, his eye plucked out and his spine being broke)
To state otherwise is to ignore the clear evidence that the C'tan, even potentially as shards, stronger than the Emperor at his peak.
"When the traitor's hand strikes, it strikes with the strength of a Legion."
"It is human nature to seek culpability in a time of tragedy. It is a sign of strength to cry out against fate, rather than to bow one's head and succumb."
Sorry to break the party dudes but there is an immense necron tomb under Mars (according to the old codex) which could mean that the dragon isn't really sedated, it is just waiting for the right moment. But, the necron's greatest aim is to become mortal. I think the Void Dragon is kept sedated by the necrons who are working with the techpriests in secret. I also believe that the C'tan are possible powerful Chaos Demons or gods.
'The galaxy once knelt before us, and will do so again'
You were right with the differing power levels, and it really comes into play here. The Nightbringer was beaten by Khaine (though he did put up an awesome fight afaik), but the Void Dragon quite nearly -killed- not beat the Emperor, which in turn is way beyond Khaine in power terms given his ability to scare the gak out of the Chaos Gods which are >>> Khaine.
Also, you can't quite say that they have an added sensitivity to the Warp. It's kind of like this as far as I gather. Material attacks are a joke to them. Shoot a laser at a C'Tan, and he can turn it into flowers before it reaches him. Shoot rockets, he can turn them into puppies. They're masters of reality manipulation, therefore conventional attacks are completely useless against them. Meanwhile, they CAN'T control the Warp at all. So they're "vulnerable" to them in that they don't have any specific defenses against warp energies.
It's kind of like this in my view: The C'Tan are like soldiers wearing fully body Kevlar. They're extremely extremely resilient vs. bullets, but have zero added protection vs. flamers let's say. That isn't to say they've got a particular weakness to flamers, or that flamers do increased damage to them, but rather they're "just as vulnerable" to fire as your average guy.
Even then though, just Warp doesn't phase them THAT much, considering that the weakened Void Dragon took 2 direct hits from 2 Blackstone Fortresses and wasn't badly injured, and as we know Blackstone Fortresses fire pure Immaterium beams that have been known to cause planets to explode, so...ya know...
And then we're back to the "power levels" thing so...
Just going to say this- if he is the Machine God, then if he woke up he could take over every single titan and destroy Mars, before focusing his attention on Terra with every vehicle in the Imperium. Hell, he wouldn't need disciples to f**k the imperium over. On top of that, I believe that the Necrons put him there. This is perfectly liable and would explain why Orikan the Diviner can possess the Machine Spirit- he can control the dragon. NECRONS WILL RULE.
You were right with the differing power levels, and it really comes into play here. The Nightbringer was beaten by Khaine (though he did put up an awesome fight afaik), but the Void Dragon quite nearly -killed- not beat the Emperor, which in turn is way beyond Khaine in power terms given his ability to scare the gak out of the Chaos Gods which are >>> Khaine.
Also, you can't quite say that they have an added sensitivity to the Warp. It's kind of like this as far as I gather. Material attacks are a joke to them. Shoot a laser at a C'Tan, and he can turn it into flowers before it reaches him. Shoot rockets, he can turn them into puppies. They're masters of reality manipulation, therefore conventional attacks are completely useless against them. Meanwhile, they CAN'T control the Warp at all. So they're "vulnerable" to them in that they don't have any specific defenses against warp energies.
It's kind of like this in my view: The C'Tan are like soldiers wearing fully body Kevlar. They're extremely extremely resilient vs. bullets, but have zero added protection vs. flamers let's say. That isn't to say they've got a particular weakness to flamers, or that flamers do increased damage to them, but rather they're "just as vulnerable" to fire as your average guy.
Even then though, just Warp doesn't phase them THAT much, considering that the weakened Void Dragon took 2 direct hits from 2 Blackstone Fortresses and wasn't badly injured, and as we know Blackstone Fortresses fire pure Immaterium beams that have been known to cause planets to explode, so...ya know...
And then we're back to the "power levels" thing so...
The fact they have such control over reality, and that the emperor would have trouble killing them.
There's absolutely nothing to suggets they're Warp entities, in fact the fluff is exactly the opposite of that. I even quoted a few posts above these, from the Codex where it specifically states that the C'Tan are "immortal star spawn, part of the fundamental fabric of actuality".
They have zero reflection in the Warp, and zero way to affect it. They're about as warp-related as a rock. They're 100% Materium, beings of immense raw power, but with zero connection to the Warp.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/03 20:08:48
The fact they have such control over reality, and that the emperor would have trouble killing them.
There's absolutely nothing to suggets they're Warp entities, in fact the fluff is exactly the opposite of that. I even quoted a few posts above these, from the Codex where it specifically states that the C'Tan are "immortal star spawn, part of the fundamental fabric of actuality".
They have zero reflection in the Warp, and zero way to affect it. They're about as warp-related as a rock. They're 100% Materium, beings of immense raw power, but with zero connection to the Warp.
All things are connected to the warp. If they are in reality then they have a counterpart in the warp.
So a rock has a very plain connection to the warp.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/03 20:11:49
The fact they have such control over reality, and that the emperor would have trouble killing them.
There's absolutely nothing to suggets they're Warp entities, in fact the fluff is exactly the opposite of that. I even quoted a few posts above these, from the Codex where it specifically states that the C'Tan are "immortal star spawn, part of the fundamental fabric of actuality".
They have zero reflection in the Warp, and zero way to affect it. They're about as warp-related as a rock. They're 100% Materium, beings of immense raw power, but with zero connection to the Warp.
All things are connected to the warp. If they are in reality then they have a counterpart in the warp.
So a rock has a very plain connection to the warp.
My thought is they're kinda' like both
'The galaxy once knelt before us, and will do so again'
I'm really curious as to what exactly gave you that impression...
I often wondered if the C'Tan were the "swords" of Vaul. Perhaps the mortal blade was the Omnissiah.
That would imply that they were created, as opposed to simply existing. The 3rd edition Necron Codex stated that they were created during the Big Bang, as creatures of pure energy, so I'm afraid that's not the case. And the Omnissiah = the void dragon.
Your idea is fun, but I'm cool with them being essentially undeniable pieces of the fabric of reality rather than "something else the old ones cooked up".
TheDiscoSpider wrote:
If I've read my fluff correctly, the Eldar Gods are largely non-factors after the whole getting eaten by Slaanesh deal.
This is freaking hilarious. I imagined Craig Fergusen just deadpan delivering this line.
But seriously though, I always thought that the void dragon was in some type of coma that the Emprah induced him into. And that the "dreams" of the sleeping dragon were what inspired the Mechanicum to come up with their ideas (pre-heresy) and that in 40k the Dragon's subconscious is what manifests as the "machine spirit."
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Oh wait. His fluff, at this point, has him coming to blows with Lionel, Angryon, Magnus, and The Emprah. One can only assume he went into the Eye of Terror because he still hadn't had a chance to punch enough Primarchs yet.
Albatross wrote:I guess we'll never know. That is, until Frazzled releases his long-awaited solo album 'Touch My Weiner'. Then we'll know.
warboss wrote:I marvel at their ability to shoot the entire foot off with a shotgun instead of pistol shooting individual toes off like most businesses would.
Mr Nobody wrote:Going to war naked always seems like a good idea until someone trips on gravel.
Ghidorah wrote: You need to quit hating and trying to control other haters hating on other people's hobbies that they are trying to control.
ShumaGorath wrote:Posting in a thread where fat nerds who play with toys make fun of fat nerds who wear costumes outdoors.
Marshal2Crusaders wrote:Good thing it wasn't attacked by the EC, or it would be the assault on Magnir's Crack.
You were right with the differing power levels, and it really comes into play here. The Nightbringer was beaten by Khaine (though he did put up an awesome fight afaik), but the Void Dragon quite nearly -killed- not beat the Emperor, which in turn is way beyond Khaine in power terms given his ability to scare the gak out of the Chaos Gods which are >>> Khaine.
Big E beat a shart, Khaine possibly beat a full C'tan (I'm assuming since it took place during the War in Heaven, though we have zero certainty on this)
Mavlun wrote: It's kind of like this in my view: The C'Tan are like soldiers wearing fully body Kevlar. They're extremely extremely resilient vs. bullets, but have zero added protection vs. flamers let's say. That isn't to say they've got a particular weakness to flamers, or that flamers do increased damage to them, but rather they're "just as vulnerable" to fire as your average guy.
Looks like someone never heard of the effects of full copper bullets on kevlar.... Anyhow, if they're completely impervious to physical attacks there's no way the C'tan could've killed eachother or have been beaten by the necrons since neither use warpbased energies.
They're resilient but not immune to the laws of physics.
You were right with the differing power levels, and it really comes into play here. The Nightbringer was beaten by Khaine (though he did put up an awesome fight afaik), but the Void Dragon quite nearly -killed- not beat the Emperor, which in turn is way beyond Khaine in power terms given his ability to scare the gak out of the Chaos Gods which are >>> Khaine.
Big E beat a shart, Khaine possibly beat a full C'tan (I'm assuming since it took place during the War in Heaven, though we have zero certainty on this)
Mavlun wrote: It's kind of like this in my view: The C'Tan are like soldiers wearing fully body Kevlar. They're extremely extremely resilient vs. bullets, but have zero added protection vs. flamers let's say. That isn't to say they've got a particular weakness to flamers, or that flamers do increased damage to them, but rather they're "just as vulnerable" to fire as your average guy.
Looks like someone never heard of the effects of full copper bullets on kevlar.... Anyhow, if they're completely impervious to physical attacks there's no way the C'tan could've killed eachother or have been beaten by the necrons since neither use warpbased energies.
They're resilient but not immune to the laws of physics.
They're clearly not immune to the laws of physics, my point was that there's no conventional attack powerful enough to destroy them. The "eating each other" thing has been retconned as far as I am aware, but even if it were somehow still part of the canon (which I'm almost certain it's not), that's 1 C'Tan beating another. Beings of reality altering power on solar system scale, are IMO more powerful than the "lasers" or "missiles" examples I gave.
As for the Necrons, they didn't destroy them, just broke them into pieces which would've reassembled had they not been locked in tesseract labyrinths. And the sort of power described in the Codex as having been used in those weapons is the sort of power I haven't seen in 40k yet, so discussing that seems kind of moot.
My point as to their "immunity" to conventional attacks is exactly against those. Conventional Materium attacks.
The C'tan cannibalcide was retconned? When did that happen? Admittedly, I only quicky read through Ward's horribad fluff but I never came across anything debunking it.
Desubot wrote: Speaking of retcons, before matt ward got to it, didn't the big E fight the full c tan not a shard?
Yup. My post earlier in the thread:
Just Dave wrote: I personally don't think you can quite compare the Emperor to a C'tan shard. It seems when the book was written - many years before the new Codex - that it was intended to show the Emperor as capable of overpowering a weakened/starving C'tan, rather than a generic shard, as shards weren't around in those days.
IMHO it would however seem reasonable to think that the Void Dragon would otherwise whump the Emperor if it wasn't starving etc.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
4000+
6000+ Order. Unity. Obedience.
Thousand Sons 4000+
13th Black Crusade Force 5,000+ pts 
Horus Heresy 1,500 pts WIP 
'The galaxy once knelt before us, and will do so again' 
One can only assume he went into the Eye of Terror because he still hadn't had a chance to punch enough Primarchs yet. 
