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Quick question that came up on my game yesterday. My heldrake came out of reserves and passed trough a unit of 5 necron immortals, as stated on the BRB at the end of the movement phase y rolled for the VS hits and took 2 immortals down, so as soon as I got them down the necron rolled the reanimation protocols thing since it is done at the end of each phase, my question here is... as per the BRB when two effects happen and the same time the controller player decides the order, so I could in theory ask for the protocols to be thrown before the VS is done, so that they have to roll at the end of my shooting phase giving me the chance to finish the unit on the shooting phase.

Is this doable?

 Lord Yayula wrote:
Quick question that came up on my game yesterday. My heldrake came out of reserves and passed trough a unit of 5 necron immortals, as stated on the BRB at the end of the movement phase y rolled for the VS hits and took 2 immortals down, so as soon as I got them down the necron rolled the reanimation protocols thing since it is done at the end of each phase, my question here is... as per the BRB when two effects happen and the same time the controller player decides the order, so I could in theory ask for the protocols to be thrown before the VS is done, so that they have to roll at the end of my shooting phase giving me the chance to finish the unit on the shooting phase.

Is this doable?

You can't ask your opponent to do something that does not exist yet.

Also, if you're still resolving vector strike then it's not "after morale checks and fall back moves", which is when RP is done at the "end of the current phase".

 Lord Yayula wrote:
as per the BRB when two effects happen and the same time the controller player decides the order, so I could in theory ask for the protocols to be thrown before the VS is done, so that they have to roll at the end of my shooting phase giving me the chance to finish the unit on the shooting phase.

No... he can't well roll RP for the unit before it's taken the casualties, can he?

what if you flew over the same unit with multiple, lets say 3, Vector Striking models?

Could you vector strike with one, then force Reanimation Protocols afterwards, then vector strike with the other 2 preventing reanimation protocol rolls for those wounds until the end of the shooting phase?

No. RP is done at the end of the phase.

So in that exampe you woudl VS with the multiple drakes, resolve casualties. At the end of the movement phase, assumign there are some Immortals left and the unit if not falling back, they can roll for RP.

I dont see why not. A real douche move, I would suggest, however seems legal in the rules.

There is a legitimate question here, not just with Vector Strikes, but with any attacks that cause casualties at the end of a phase and how that works with RP (which is also resolved at the end of the phase). Other examples include Tyranid Toxic Miasma and the CSM black mace.

Traditionally, the current player gets to choose which order to resolve these types of actions in, but if you follow this pattern the question then becomes: What do you do if the opposing player chooses to resolve RP first (say there are other models which have been knocked down in that phase by other means) and THEN resolves the Vector Strike/Black Mace/Toxic Miasma damage...what happens?

The Necron codex says that 'once all RP rolls have been made for a unit (passed or failed) remove all your counters from the unit'. That *kind of* (but not really) implies that any counters left on a unit at the end of a phase are then discarded.

However, I think the proper way to play it is that counters which have not been rolled for then carry over into the NEXT phase (whatever that may be) and are then rolled for at the end of that following phase. The reason I say this is in this odd case the unit has not made all of its RP rolls (those counters have not been rolled for).


So, for example, say a CSM player chooses to have the Necron player take his RP rolls at the end of the assault phase FIRST and then resolves the Black Mace 'end of phase' damage, knocking down some more Necrons. I think THOSE counters remain on the unit into the next phase (which would be the Necron player's next movement phase) and at the end of THAT phase, you'd roll for those remaining RP counters.

That's my best guess on how to handle this situation, personally.

RP is done at the end of the phase out says it in the codex. So after VS hits then at the end of the movement phase rp kicks in and some may get back up. As far as black mace goes I believe those are resolved at the end of the last assault phase step but before you do leadership/moral.

:Cheers:

Reanimation Protocols is clearly designed to be the last thing that happens in a phase. Those other "end of phase" rules are designed to just be something that happens after all the usual things in a phase happens.

Lynxstrife - Im not sure youve understood correctly there

RP happens at the end of any phase - so movemebt, shooting or assault
VS occurs at the end of the movement phase - exactly the same time as RP

When two things occur at the same time, the player whose turn it is decides the order in which they occur.

Yak has hit on the oddity really, you don't have permission to remove counters from a unit until they have all been rolled for, so the only thing to really do would be carry them over to the next phase (when you can roll for them). I suppose this has the advantage of you being more likely to wipe the unit out via shooting (there are fewer models standing) and thus removing it altogether (along with its RP counters).

Errr... doesn't vector strike occur at the end of the model's movement, not the end of the movement phase? (I don't have le book in front of me)

That's what i remember from using the CCB. You complete the models movement and then sort out the VS results.

But that was Sweep an not VS so it might be different.

Sweep and VS are different. VS resolves at the end of the movement phase.

 Kevin949 wrote:


You can't ask your opponent to do something that does not exist yet.

Also, if you're still resolving vector strike then it's not "after morale checks and fall back moves", which is when RP is done at the "end of the current phase".

Wouldn't that "You can't ask your opponent to do something that does not exist yet." apply to the MSS as well? I had the understanding that when it was my turn I could choose if the necron lord uses his MSS before or after the challenge, if the lord isn't in base contact with any miniature I can't force him to use them before challenge then? (since there are no models touching him, no target exists yet and therefore he can't waste them until i challenge him)

 yakface wrote:
There is a legitimate question here, not just with Vector Strikes, but with any attacks that cause casualties at the end of a phase and how that works with RP (which is also resolved at the end of the phase). Other examples include Tyranid Toxic Miasma and the CSM black mace.

Traditionally, the current player gets to choose which order to resolve these types of actions in, but if you follow this pattern the question then becomes: What do you do if the opposing player chooses to resolve RP first (say there are other models which have been knocked down in that phase by other means) and THEN resolves the Vector Strike/Black Mace/Toxic Miasma damage...what happens?

The Necron codex says that 'once all RP rolls have been made for a unit (passed or failed) remove all your counters from the unit'. That *kind of* (but not really) implies that any counters left on a unit at the end of a phase are then discarded.

However, I think the proper way to play it is that counters which have not been rolled for then carry over into the NEXT phase (whatever that may be) and are then rolled for at the end of that following phase. The reason I say this is in this odd case the unit has not made all of its RP rolls (those counters have not been rolled for).


So, for example, say a CSM player chooses to have the Necron player take his RP rolls at the end of the assault phase FIRST and then resolves the Black Mace 'end of phase' damage, knocking down some more Necrons. I think THOSE counters remain on the unit into the next phase (which would be the Necron player's next movement phase) and at the end of THAT phase, you'd roll for those remaining RP counters.

That's my best guess on how to handle this situation, personally.

Yak, it's a lot simpler than that. RP/EL rolls are done after morale tests and fall back moves. Morale tests are taken after all casualties have been caused in any single phase. You can not therefore force an opponent to take RP rolls before morale tests are done which are after any/all wounds caused in a single phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:


You can't ask your opponent to do something that does not exist yet.

Also, if you're still resolving vector strike then it's not "after morale checks and fall back moves", which is when RP is done at the "end of the current phase".

Wouldn't that "You can't ask your opponent to do something that does not exist yet." apply to the MSS as well? I had the understanding that when it was my turn I could choose if the necron lord uses his MSS before or after the challenge, if the lord isn't in base contact with any miniature I can't force him to use them before challenge then? (since there are no models touching him, no target exists yet and therefore he can't waste them until i challenge him)

Entirely different situation. In the case of MSS you're resolving effects that have already met their trigger (being in B2B contact). You can not, however, ask your opponent "You have to roll for RP on wounds you don't have yet before I vector strike you." The trigger for RP hasn't happened yet. Does that make sense?

Either way, I stated above a more valid reason to why this doesn't work.

Well look at this this way RP triggers after moral checks at the end of phase (whether you have to do a moral check due to losing 25% or not). Looking at VS, would you take a moral check before or after the VS kills a buch of necrons? My assumption is this: first you have the VS, then if needed moral check (to see if RP even works) then RP. My justifcation for this is you cannot do moral checks if you have not lost any men in the movement phase so you cannot possibly do an RP, however if you did lose men then moral (if lost 25% or more guys) then RP.

Okay, so yakface likely has the right of it. So the answer Lord Yayula is sort of.

Reanimation Protocol only triggers if a model is removed as a casualty from a unit. Whenever a unit with RP takes a casualty you put a token (or counter) next to it for each casualty you remove. If the unit ends up falling back all the counters are dumped. If the unit is fully destroyed all the counters are dumped.

Then, at the end of every phase and after all Morale checks/fall back moves you roll for each unit with RP that took casualties and has RP tokens/counters. A unit has to have tokens/counters to trigger RP.

Simple enough. So you cannot force the Necron Player to roll for his Reanimation Protocols if they don't have any tokens/counters for it. No, you cannot force someone to roll Zero D6.

Hypothetically, if you shot up a unit previously that phase, you can force RP then do your Vector Strike. Then the counters/tokens caused by Vector Strike would stay with the unit until the end of the subsequent phase, unless the unit falls back or is destroyed.


So really, either you need to do multiple Vector Strikes to the same unit (order would be Vector Strike, Reanimation Protocol, Vector Strike, Vector Strike) or otherwise cause at least one casualty to the Necron unit prior to the end of the Movement Phase. I'm not sure what options outside of multiple Vector Strikes you have for that.

Gowan 123 hit the nail on the head. +1.

cowmonaut wrote:
Okay, so yakface likely has the right of it. So the answer Lord Yayula is sort of.

Reanimation Protocol only triggers if a model is removed as a casualty from a unit. Whenever a unit with RP takes a casualty you put a token (or counter) next to it for each casualty you remove. If the unit ends up falling back all the counters are dumped. If the unit is fully destroyed all the counters are dumped.

Then, at the end of every phase and after all Morale checks/fall back moves you roll for each unit with RP that took casualties and has RP tokens/counters. A unit has to have tokens/counters to trigger RP.

Simple enough. So you cannot force the Necron Player to roll for his Reanimation Protocols if they don't have any tokens/counters for it. No, you cannot force someone to roll Zero D6.

Hypothetically, if you shot up a unit previously that phase, you can force RP then do your Vector Strike. Then the counters/tokens caused by Vector Strike would stay with the unit until the end of the subsequent phase, unless the unit falls back or is destroyed.


So really, either you need to do multiple Vector Strikes to the same unit (order would be Vector Strike, Reanimation Protocol, Vector Strike, Vector Strike) or otherwise cause at least one casualty to the Necron unit prior to the end of the Movement Phase. I'm not sure what options outside of multiple Vector Strikes you have for that.

You were doing good right up until there. No, you can't do it even then because then vector strike wounds couldn't cause morale checks from casualties. If it did, you'd be breaking the order of RP rolls. Even though they're both resolved at the end of the phase, RP states more specifically when it is handled and by the rulebook we know that casualties caused in a single phase can trigger morale checks. Well, you also test for morale at the end of the phase...so do you want to try to force your opponent to roll for morale before vector strikes and RP? Does that seem fair to you?

In the case of resolving multiple VS on a single unit you do all the VS first then moral then RP; justification for that is you don't roll for moral checks in the middle of the shooting phase you roll it after all the shooting has been done, why roll for moral checks after a single VS when there are multiple VS to resolve? If you wanted to go the other way and say RP resolves first before VS then you would say VS cannot cause moral checks since RP triggers after moral checks and in this situation the chance for passing the moral check has already passed and the models lost will just be lost and not carried on to the RP in the shooting phase (RP doesn't transfer over between phases).

For example--> situation 1(RP after VS): 2 guys do a vector strike on 5 warriors, killing 2 of them you then roll moral check (losing 40% o the army) passes the check and rolls for RP
situation 2(VS after RP): 2 guys do a vector strike on 5 warriors; since the warriors have lost nobody initally they don't have to take a moral check, and since the necrons have not lost anybody we can assume no RP is needed, the VS comes in and kills 2 guys, even though 40% of the unit is gone its fine they have already gone through their end of phase moral check and RP so the unit loses the 2 guys and don't need to roll for moral check

To me the first situation sounds easier to understand, the second is just trying to stack the game in the VS player's favour, both are plausable but the second situation is a metagamers way of getting around RP lol

I'll buy that. If nothing else it makes the game smoother. The requirement that RP happen after all Morale checks would have to prevent any other Morale checks from happening in that phase. Else you get a paradox and that just means you can't argue against it.

No idea why that didn't click the first two times thinking it through....

 Kevin949 wrote:


Yak, it's a lot simpler than that. RP/EL rolls are done after morale tests and fall back moves. Morale tests are taken after all casualties have been caused in any single phase. You can not therefore force an opponent to take RP rolls before morale tests are done which are after any/all wounds caused in a single phase.

That's simply not true. Just because RP rolls are specified as taking place at the end of the phase after morale checks does NOT mean this automatically puts them *after* any other 'end of phase' actions, anymore than the reserve rules saying that you roll for reserves and move units on from reserve before moving any other models in the movement phase somehow automatically puts this before or after other 'start of the turn' actions.


The truth is, in 6th edition the current player can decide what order to resolve actions that occur at the same time as stupid as that can make things sometimes.

I'd like to move away from Vector Striking and start talking more about the Black Mace as an example of the issue (because its easier to have situations where casualties were caused naturally in the assault phase than in the movement phase).

The player whose turn it is can absolutely choose to resolve the 'end of phase' Black Mace casualties *AFTER* RP rolls have been taken for the phase by the RAW. What happens after that is a little unclear, but the rules themselves ARE clear.

Similarly if there is some ability that causes damage at 'end of the phase' in the movement or shooting phase (such as Vector Strike) it is perfectly permissible for the controlling player to choose to resolve this damage AFTER any morale checks have been taken if he wishes.

The problem with that whole line of logic is that while you can resolve RP before any other end of phase items, any other end of phase items that cause casualties, will trigger a new RP. New tokens would be placed and then those tokens would have to be resolved.

Fragile wrote:
The problem with that whole line of logic is that while you can resolve RP before any other end of phase items, any other end of phase items that cause casualties, will trigger a new RP. New tokens would be placed and then those tokens would have to be resolved.

That is the question that has no answer that needs to be answered.

As I said above, I think the cleanest way to play that situation that causes the fewest rules hiccups is simply to leave counters on the unit which have been placed *after* RP have been rolled for that phase and then simply roll for them at the end of whatever the next phase is.

 yakface wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:


Yak, it's a lot simpler than that. RP/EL rolls are done after morale tests and fall back moves. Morale tests are taken after all casualties have been caused in any single phase. You can not therefore force an opponent to take RP rolls before morale tests are done which are after any/all wounds caused in a single phase.

That's simply not true. Just because RP rolls are specified as taking place at the end of the phase after morale checks does NOT mean this automatically puts them *after* any other 'end of phase' actions, anymore than the reserve rules saying that you roll for reserves and move units on from reserve before moving any other models in the movement phase somehow automatically puts this before or after other 'start of the turn' actions.


The truth is, in 6th edition the current player can decide what order to resolve actions that occur at the same time as stupid as that can make things sometimes.

I'd like to move away from Vector Striking and start talking more about the Black Mace as an example of the issue (because its easier to have situations where casualties were caused naturally in the assault phase than in the movement phase).

The player whose turn it is can absolutely choose to resolve the 'end of phase' Black Mace casualties *AFTER* RP rolls have been taken for the phase by the RAW. What happens after that is a little unclear, but the rules themselves ARE clear.

Similarly if there is some ability that causes damage at 'end of the phase' in the movement or shooting phase (such as Vector Strike) it is perfectly permissible for the controlling player to choose to resolve this damage AFTER any morale checks have been taken if he wishes.

Yak, here is the rest of that bit of rule you're referencing that I think comes into play in this situation - Pg 9. EXCEPTIONS
"Occasionally, the actions of
one player will trigger the sudden appearance of a particular
unit, or may activate some special rule or occurrence. When
this happens, the exceptional rule will contain all the
information you need to resolve it."

So yes, while the active player would get to decide what goes first, this is only true if the actions of one would cause a special rule to activate, which I believe is this exact situation, yes?

 Kevin949 wrote:


Yak, here is the rest of that bit of rule you're referencing that I think comes into play in this situation - Pg 9. EXCEPTIONS
"Occasionally, the actions of
one player will trigger the sudden appearance of a particular
unit, or may activate some special rule or occurrence. When
this happens, the exceptional rule will contain all the
information you need to resolve it."

So yes, while the active player would get to decide what goes first, this is only true if the actions of one would cause a special rule to activate, which I believe is this exact situation, yes?

The two sentences are not one big shared rule. They explain two different situations. The bit you've quoted above is just saying sometimes the appearance of a unit may activate a special rule or occurrence (that will be explained in the special rule itself), and has no bearing on this particular instance. The sentence that precedes it is what we're talking about:

At other times, you'll find that both players will have to do something at the same time. When these things happen, the player whose turn it is decides the order in which the events occur.

So again, Reanimation Protocols happens at the end of the turn as do Toughness tests for the Black Mace, or Toxic Miasma damage for Tyranids, etc. This is EXACTLY the same situation as having multiple things occurring at the 'start of a turn' or 'start of a phase', etc, and it is up to the player whose turn it is to decide what order to resolve these things in.

 yakface wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:


Yak, here is the rest of that bit of rule you're referencing that I think comes into play in this situation - Pg 9. EXCEPTIONS
"Occasionally, the actions of
one player will trigger the sudden appearance of a particular
unit, or may activate some special rule or occurrence. When
this happens, the exceptional rule will contain all the
information you need to resolve it."

So yes, while the active player would get to decide what goes first, this is only true if the actions of one would cause a special rule to activate, which I believe is this exact situation, yes?

The two sentences are not one big shared rule. They explain two different situations. The bit you've quoted above is just saying sometimes the appearance of a unit may activate a special rule or occurrence (that will be explained in the special rule itself), and has no bearing on this particular instance. The sentence that precedes it is what we're talking about:

At other times, you'll find that both players will have to do something at the same time. When these things happen, the player whose turn it is decides the order in which the events occur.

So again, Reanimation Protocols happens at the end of the turn as do Toughness tests for the Black Mace, or Toxic Miasma damage for Tyranids, etc. This is EXACTLY the same situation as having multiple things occurring at the 'start of a turn' or 'start of a phase', etc, and it is up to the player whose turn it is to decide what order to resolve these things in.

So basically you're saying it's legal for someone to have his opponent take a morale test on a unit and then cause more wounds to the unit? Possibly causing another morale test if the first one wasn't failed?

I disagree that it's the same though, as the RP rule is more specific for when it happens. It's not just "end of the phase", it's "end of the phase, after morale checks and fall back moves". So...vector strike is end of phase, it can cause morale tests, morale tests are end of phase...I guess i don't understand how anything that could cause morale tests could happen after morale tests are taken.

 yakface wrote:

Fragile wrote:
The problem with that whole line of logic is that while you can resolve RP before any other end of phase items, any other end of phase items that cause casualties, will trigger a new RP. New tokens would be placed and then those tokens would have to be resolved.

That is the question that has no answer that needs to be answered.

As I said above, I think the cleanest way to play that situation that causes the fewest rules hiccups is simply to leave counters on the unit which have been placed *after* RP have been rolled for that phase and then simply roll for them at the end of whatever the next phase is.

It is answered. You simply follow the rules of the game. Using your Black Mace. Necrons vs CSM in CC. A 10 man necron squad loses 4 to a CSM champ with BM and RP tokens are placed per the RP rule. The combat ends and morale passed. Now you reach the end of the phase. The active player can choose to either use RP or BM. He chooses RP. The rolls for reanimation are made. The BM then resolves causing a few more wounds and casualties. Those casualties are removed. Because they are removed, you now have to place new RP tokens. Once the BM finishes resolving, those RP tokens have to be resolved.

Fragile wrote:

It is answered. You simply follow the rules of the game. Using your Black Mace. Necrons vs CSM in CC. A 10 man necron squad loses 4 to a CSM champ with BM and RP tokens are placed per the RP rule. The combat ends and morale passed. Now you reach the end of the phase. The active player can choose to either use RP or BM. He chooses RP. The rolls for reanimation are made. The BM then resolves causing a few more wounds and casualties. Those casualties are removed. Because they are removed, you now have to place new RP tokens. Once the BM finishes resolving, those RP tokens have to be resolved.

That solution works too (I'm okay with that as well), but it does allow the unit to take Reanimation Protocol rolls twice in the same phase, which could be perceived as being a bit sketchy.