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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/03 05:58:29
Subject: Multi-charge / Hammer of Wrath / Pile-in / Challenge (Was it played right?)
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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Situation.
A unit of Necron Warriors is in combat with a unit of Warp Talons. 3" away is a combat involving a unit of Immortals, 1 Obliterator, and some Daemonettes. At the start of the Necron Assault phase a unit of 5 Wraiths, multi-charges the Warp Talons then declares the Daemonettes as a secondary. They did not use their 'Jump' move in the movement phase so gained the benefit of the re-roll and 'Hammer of Wrath rules'. At Initiative 10, the Hammer of Wrath managed to kill the 2 Daemonettes eliminating that unit, and 1 Warp Talon that the Wraiths had made base contact with. The Necron Lord with the Immortals was in base contact with the Obliterator, but 4" away from anything else. The Necron Lord with the Warriors was dead from the previous Challenge.
1) When declaring Challenges, did the Necron Lord have to accept because he was in base with a Model involved in the overall combat, or did get to decline and still participate since he was not near the Sorc Lord, or the Warp Talon Champ at the time Challenges were issued?
2) At Initiative 5, the Warp Talon Champion not in base with the Warriors (but I realized now he should've been after the previous round), decides to pile-in with the Immortals since they are now all part of the same combat as a result of the Wraiths. Was this played right assuming that we hadn't forgotten that he should've been in base with the Warriors and really was not in base contact? Or would he still have to pile-in with the Warriors?
3) At Initiative 2, the 2 wraiths that had used 'Hammer of Wrath' on the Daemonettes Pile-in to where? Are their attacks forfeit as the unit they were in base contact no longer there, or do they pile-in where I want/can get them as part of the same combat?
4) After this pile-in is resolved and attacks are being declared at the different units, the Wraiths were only in base contact with the Sorcerer Lord attached to the Warp Talons. Will all attacks directed at the Warp Talons, from the Wraiths start on the Sorceror Lord? Or are all of the attacks from the same initiative directed against the Warp Talons in base contact, which would include the Warriors, allowing him to allocate to the Warp Talons in base contact with the Warriors before getting to the Lord?
5) The 2 Wraiths that killed the Daemonettes, could I have directed their attacks at the Obliterator even if I couldn't get into base contact with him, but I could get within 2" of an Immortal in base contact with the Obliterator?
(Note: I did find a thread on this, but didn't seem to come to any conclusion based on what I found there)
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All in all it was a good game. We couldn't see any reason to not allow the Wraiths to pile-in with a different unit and swing against a different unit. They all went against the Warp Talons, and we kept the pools separate, so the Sorceror Lord took all the hits, wounds from the Wraiths. Without the bonus attack from charging he survived in Terminator Armor, and we also figured out that his Nurgle Herald in the unit granting FnP wasn't legal. Would've liked to have put 1-2 Wraiths on the Obliterator, since his Tzeentch marked armor was proving a bit too strong for the Warscythe while the 10 Immortals had no problem taking down the other 2 Oblits with the 2+ sv. Not really complaining here since I still won claiming 2 Objectives with First Blood, Warlord, and the Daemonettes were his last Troop available. We did allow the Necron Lord to decline the challenge since he was so far away from both Chaos Characters, but we did allow him to pile-in with the Immortals since we both forgot he would've been in base with the Warriors, rather than assume that's where he would be. We called the game at the start of T5, since table space was limited and others were waiting for a game. Since it was unlikely that the 3 Warp Talons, Sorceror Lord, and 1 Oblit were going to chew through 5 Wraiths in 2 Turns to steal 2 of the Objectives that were at least 24" apart we saw no point.
GREAT opponent, as we didn't spend much time arguing over the rules, just came to an agreeable decision, and then tried to figure it out afterward. Which is why Im posting here.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/03 06:00:20
Current Armies
40k: 15k of Unplayable Necrons
(I miss 7th!)
30k: Imperial Fists
(project for 2025)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/03 06:25:28
Subject: Multi-charge / Hammer of Wrath / Pile-in / Challenge (Was it played right?)
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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1. The necron lord could not accept the challenge as he was not engaged with the challengee (in base to base or within 2" of someone in b2b with the challengee).
2. No, the warp talons were never in combat with the immortals. The only unit that strung across all combats was the wraiths, but even they could not attack the obliterator.
3. They would pile-in to the warp talons.
4. Yes, if he is the only one in base to base with ANY wraith out of the entire unit. He could still LoS though.
5. No.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/03 07:43:05
Subject: Multi-charge / Hammer of Wrath / Pile-in / Challenge (Was it played right?)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Aizuwakamatsu, Fukushima, Japan
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Kevin949 wrote:1. The necron lord could not accept the challenge as he was not engaged with the challengee (in base to base or within 2" of someone in b2b with the challengee).
2. No, the warp talons were never in combat with the immortals. The only unit that strung across all combats was the wraiths, but even they could not attack the obliterator.
3. They would pile-in to the warp talons.
4. Yes, if he is the only one in base to base with ANY wraith out of the entire unit. He could still LoS though.
5. No.
Your answer to 1. is wrong. The prospective combatants in a challenge don't have to be engaged with each other when the Challenge is declared, they just have to be both Engaged (with someone) and in the same combat. As the Lord was Engaged, and it was a singular combat, the Lord was free to accept or face the penalties for refusing.
2. The Warp Talons were in combat with the Immortals, because they were in a combat in which the Immortals were also involved. When the Wraiths multi-charged, they linked the two separate combats into 1 combat, and that lasts until the combat ends. So yes, the Champion could have piled in to the Immortals provided he wasn't already in Base to Base.
3. They could pile in wherever they wanted, following the usual pile in rules. Both the Obliterator and the Warp Talon units are in the combat, so either could be piled in to.
4. Agreed.
5. Agreed, although if they hadn't been in base contact with a different unit they could, potentially, have attacked the Obliterator.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/03 10:02:51
Subject: Multi-charge / Hammer of Wrath / Pile-in / Challenge (Was it played right?)
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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AS above. The ONLY requiremetn fr a challenger / challengee to offer or accept is tha tthey are Engaged, they do NOT have to be engaged with the respondent or proponent of the challenge specifically.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/03 13:13:19
Subject: Multi-charge / Hammer of Wrath / Pile-in / Challenge (Was it played right?)
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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Chrysis wrote:
5. Agreed, although if they hadn't been in base contact with a different unit they could, potentially, have attacked the Obliterator.
Realized I wasn't entirely clear on this point. When they piled in, only 2 of the 5 Wraiths were in base contact with the Sorceror Lord. When the 3 attempted to pile-in, they still could not make base contact with any of my opponents models in either of the remaining units. The 2 Wraiths that were against the Daemonettes were within 2" of the Immortals, but since none of the Wraiths were in base contact with the Oblit they were fighting, we didn't know if they could swing. So I moved them so that they were within 2" of the Wraiths that were in base with the Sorceror. Since he was attached to the Warp Talons, they directed their attacks that way. The confusion was could they still swing against the Obliterator, since they were still locked in combat with him at the pile-in step, or did ONE of the Wraiths have to be in base contact?
Hope that clears that up to get the question answered.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/05/03 13:41:44
Current Armies
40k: 15k of Unplayable Necrons
(I miss 7th!)
30k: Imperial Fists
(project for 2025)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/03 15:19:35
Subject: Multi-charge / Hammer of Wrath / Pile-in / Challenge (Was it played right?)
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
Pacific NW
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Akar wrote:1) When declaring Challenges, did the Necron Lord have to accept because he was in base with a Model involved in the overall combat, or did get to decline and still participate since he was not near the Sorc Lord, or the Warp Talon Champ at the time Challenges were issued?
As far as I'm aware, the Necron Lord doesn't have to accept any Challenges. He had the opportunity to respond to the Challenge because he was in the same overall combat, but he isn't like a Chaos Champion that has to accept all Challenges if possible. Mind you, he would have done nothing that round if you had no other Character that could have accepted a Challenge from the Chaos Player.
Akar wrote:2) At Initiative 5, the Warp Talon Champion not in base with the Warriors (but I realized now he should've been after the previous round), decides to pile-in with the Immortals since they are now all part of the same combat as a result of the Wraiths. Was this played right assuming that we hadn't forgotten that he should've been in base with the Warriors and really was not in base contact? Or would he still have to pile-in with the Warriors?
So long as the Warp Talon Champion was still in coherency with the remaining Warp Talons, yes you could do that. As soon as the Wraiths multi-charged successfully the two combats were now one, and that all happened before the Warp Talon's Initiative Step.
Akar wrote:3) At Initiative 2, the 2 wraiths that had used 'Hammer of Wrath' on the Daemonettes Pile-in to where? Are their attacks forfeit as the unit they were in base contact no longer there, or do they pile-in where I want/can get them as part of the same combat?
They can pile in to either the Warp Talons or the Obliterator. The only requirements (page 23 in the BRB) are that they get in to base contact with an enemy model and remain in 2" coherency with their own unit's models.
Akar wrote:4) After this pile-in is resolved and attacks are being declared at the different units, the Wraiths were only in base contact with the Sorcerer Lord attached to the Warp Talons. Will all attacks directed at the Warp Talons, from the Wraiths start on the Sorceror Lord? Or are all of the attacks from the same initiative directed against the Warp Talons in base contact, which would include the Warriors, allowing him to allocate to the Warp Talons in base contact with the Warriors before getting to the Lord?
All of the Wraith's attacks would be on the Sorceror, but Look Out Sir! would likely save his butt here.
Akar wrote:5) The 2 Wraiths that killed the Daemonettes, could I have directed their attacks at the Obliterator even if I couldn't get into base contact with him, but I could get within 2" of an Immortal in base contact with the Obliterator?
No, but then they should have been in base contact likely.
Glad you had a good game with a good opponent! Arguing over rules is never fun, and I never want my opponent (or myself!) to feel bitter about a game because of issues with rules.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/03 16:09:09
Subject: Multi-charge / Hammer of Wrath / Pile-in / Challenge (Was it played right?)
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Chrysis wrote: Kevin949 wrote:1. The necron lord could not accept the challenge as he was not engaged with the challengee (in base to base or within 2" of someone in b2b with the challengee).
2. No, the warp talons were never in combat with the immortals. The only unit that strung across all combats was the wraiths, but even they could not attack the obliterator.
3. They would pile-in to the warp talons.
4. Yes, if he is the only one in base to base with ANY wraith out of the entire unit. He could still LoS though.
5. No.
Your answer to 1. is wrong. The prospective combatants in a challenge don't have to be engaged with each other when the Challenge is declared, they just have to be both Engaged (with someone) and in the same combat. As the Lord was Engaged, and it was a singular combat, the Lord was free to accept or face the penalties for refusing.
2. The Warp Talons were in combat with the Immortals, because they were in a combat in which the Immortals were also involved. When the Wraiths multi-charged, they linked the two separate combats into 1 combat, and that lasts until the combat ends. So yes, the Champion could have piled in to the Immortals provided he wasn't already in Base to Base.
3. They could pile in wherever they wanted, following the usual pile in rules. Both the Obliterator and the Warp Talon units are in the combat, so either could be piled in to.
4. Agreed.
5. Agreed, although if they hadn't been in base contact with a different unit they could, potentially, have attacked the Obliterator.
1. No, the necron lord was engaged with the obliterator, NOT the warp talons. You do still have to be engaged with the unit to accept a challenge. According to the OP, the lord was 4" from anything else. Plus he wasn't involved in the combat with the warp talons (see below). But you're right that you only have to be engaged with the unit, not the model. My mistake.
2. No, they were never engage with the immortals. Ever. The wraiths multi assaulting did not give the warp talons allowance to get into base contact with the immortals without a charge move. not to mention they were never engaged with the immortals either.
3.No, again, they could not. Their Primary and secondary targets were the Warp Talons and the Daemonettes. Once the daemonettes were dead, they were only engaged with the warp talons.
You seem to be equating that if anyone is in combat with anyone then everyone else is, and that is not true in this case.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/05/03 16:12:58
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/03 16:31:12
Subject: Multi-charge / Hammer of Wrath / Pile-in / Challenge (Was it played right?)
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
Pacific NW
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Kevin949 wrote:You seem to be equating that if anyone is in combat with anyone then everyone else is, and that is not true in this case.
From BRB Page 28, regarding multiple combats: Resolving the Fight sub-phase of a multiple combat is done just as it is for a combat between two units except for the following clarifications and adjustments. And those clarifications are only for directing attacks: In multiple combats, during a model's Initiative step, the following extra rules apply: • A model that is in base contact,or engaged,with just one enemy unit when it comes to strike must attack that unit. • A model that is in base contact, or engaged,with more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows,can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its Attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Finally, again on Page 28, Pile Ins: After determining assault results, all units that were involved in that multiple combat must make Pile In moves towards enemies that fought in that combat. If no models in a unit are in base contact with an enemy unit, and the combined Pile In moves of both sides are not enough for them to get back into base contact, then they can Consolidate instead. The above are the only changes to the rules for fighting a multi-combat (once the charge move is done). You only have to Pile In towards a model that is in the overall combat, not in a specific unit. That means Pile In moves still function the same as always. From BRB Page 23: First, any models Pile In if this will bring them into base contact with an enemy. The same page describes who can (and must) fight: During its Initiative step, it is in base contact with one or more enemy models. and During its Initiative step, it is within 2"of a friendly model in base contact with one or more enemy models in the same combat. Kevin949 wrote:2. No, they were never engage with the immortals. Ever. The wraiths multi assaulting did not give the warp talons allowance to get into base contact with the immortals without a charge move. not to mention they were never engaged with the immortals either. 3.No, again, they could not. Their Primary and secondary targets were the Warp Talons and the Daemonettes. Once the daemonettes were dead, they were only engaged with the warp talons.
As soon as the Wraith charged both enemy units, the two combats became one (page 28). Units have to attack units they are in base contact with, but they still get a pile in move. There is no requirement to Pile In to a unit you are already in base contact with. There was in 5th edition, not in 6th edition. You cannot use the Pile In move to move into base contact with a model not involved in the combat, but we now have multiple units in the combat. So long as your models remain in coherency, you can Pile In to any enemy model involved in the combat. Kevin949 wrote:1. No, the necron lord was engaged with the obliterator, NOT the warp talons. You do still have to be engaged with the unit to accept a challenge. According to the OP, the lord was 4" from anything else.
Completely irrelevant. Challenges only require that both the participants be involved in the same combat. The Necron Lord was part of the unit of Immortals involved in the combat, so he has to either refuse or accept the Challenge from the Chaos player (since there are no other Characters involved on the Necron side). Distance never factors into it, and your IC cannot leave the unit of Immortals except in the Movement Phase. I'm actually curious how the Necron Lord ended up 4" away from anything else. If he was joined with the Immortals, and it was because Immortals took casualties, then the casualties were removed incorrectly most likely. You can't purposely remove a model to break coherency, unless there is literally no other choice (such as Line of Sight shenanigans or something).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/03 16:32:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/04 17:59:20
Subject: Multi-charge / Hammer of Wrath / Pile-in / Challenge (Was it played right?)
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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cowmonaut wrote:
Completely irrelevant. Challenges only require that both the participants be involved in the same combat. The Necron Lord was part of the unit of Immortals involved in the combat, so he has to either refuse or accept the Challenge from the Chaos player (since there are no other Characters involved on the Necron side). Distance never factors into it, and your IC cannot leave the unit of Immortals except in the Movement Phase.
There is a difference between being 'Locked' and being 'Engaged' so range IS a factor in Challenges. It's covered right there in the Challenge rules. A model does only need to be locked for the Challenge to be issued, that is covered. However characters that cannot fight, or strike blows cannot accept challenges. The rules only address the situation from a singular combat, and isn't covered under the multiple combats section, which is why the question came up. At the time challenges were issued, both the Chaos Champion, and the Necron Lord were BOTH engaged, but not with each other, they were only 'locked' with each other. So the Chaos Champion was allowed to issue the challenge, but one solution is that Im not forced to accept/decline because he wasn't 'engaged' with the Warp Talons when the challenge was issued. He could not fight or strike blows against the unit containing the challenging character, at the time the challenge was issued. NOTE: It would've been in MY interest to accept the challenge, as my Semp Weave has the best chance of shrugging off the Warp Talons Lightning claws. He did more damage by NOT being in a challenge.
Let's assume that you're right for a second, and say that all eligibility requirements WERE met, and the challenge had to be accepted/declined. We'd have to move to the 'Fighting a Challenge' portion. They cannot be used to move a character out of coherency with his unit. If possible, we have to swap the challenger for a friendly model in base contact with the challenger. Notice here that it says model, and not model from same unit since the rule doesn't take a view from a multiple combat. So we would have to swap the Obliterator with the Chaos Champion. This wasn't possible, because it would have removed the Chaos Champion out of coherency with his unit, but even if it were possible, it would've also completely removed the Obliterator from being engaged at all with the Immortals. (Something that isn't covered at all) So the next step would be to swap the challengee (Lord) to be in base contact with the challenger (Champion). This SHOULD have been a Necron Warrior, but none of the models from the Immortals were in base contact with any of the Warp Talons, so I would've had to swap a Warrior (which is part of a different unit) to be in base with the Champion had he been where he should be. However, no models were in base with the Champion, and even if he was, it would've moved the Lord out of coherency with his unit. So in either case he's not moving.
So the 3rd step is where the range gets fuzzy. We would have to swap the challenger (Champion) to be as close as possible and assume they are in base contact for the combat. This would've swapped the champion for a Warp Talon that was in Base contact with the Warriors, and they still would've not been engaged with each other, and not even able to get into a position to strike blows against each other. So based on this (and we did discuss it briefly), we decided that since the Champion couldn't through ANY means get to a point where he could strike blows against the Immortals at the time the challenge was issued, that I wasn't obligated to respond. At the Pile in step, he did have enough of Pile-in to get within 2" of a Warp Talon that WAS able to make contact with the Immortals with his Pile-in, and then strike blows against the Immortals.
cowmonaut wrote:
I'm actually curious how the Necron Lord ended up 4" away from anything else. If he was joined with the Immortals, and it was because Immortals took casualties, then the casualties were removed incorrectly most likely.
He was 4"+ away from the Warp Talon unit, not the Obliterator or the Daemonettes. The previous combat saw 4 Immortals drop, and 3 return from RP, and can't be placed in base contact per the RP rules, and this happens AFTER pile-in moves. So no, casualties were not removed incorrectly, pile-ins were performed correctly, and RP models were placed accordingly.
cowmonaut wrote: You can't purposely remove a model to break coherency, unless there is literally no other choice (such as Line of Sight shenanigans or something).
There is no rule in either the shooting or combat rules to support this. You cannot move a model out of coherency in any point where you get to choose where to move models in any phase of the game. Removing casualties, has no such restriction or clause. In shooting, you get remove models closest to the firing model first. If 2 models are equidistant, then you either randomize or the owner decides. He is not forced by any rule, to remove the one that won't break coherency first. In combat, more often than not the models in base contact will often break coherency.
This is perfectly legal, and I've seen it happen far to frequently. 5 Terminators, 3 w/ LC's 2 w/ PF's are all in a line spread out, in base contact with the enemy. The 3 LC's are in the middle. They swing at their Initiative, then the opponent manages to kill 2 or 3. Since they are all in base contact the controlling player gets to choose who dies. He chooses the LC Terminators, to allow the PF's to still swing. He isn't required to take the PF's first because that would break coherency, he doesn't have that restriction. (or it's quite possible I've not seen the rule yet). This is a debate for a new thread if you want to start it, but I only mention it here because of the other problem with the Wraiths and Warriors fighting the Warp Talons.
The real issue wasn't that the the Wraiths couldn't swing against the Oblit, it was if they got to swing at all since they unit they killed, died as a result of their actions. I don't have a problem with the Wraiths not being able to swing against the Oblit, just would've been nice. Seems to be the consensus that I played that part right when I piled them into an area where they were striking against the Talons.
cowmonaut wrote:
And those clarifications are only for directing attacks: In multiple combats, during a model's Initiative step, the following extra rules apply:
• A model that is in base contact,or engaged,with just one enemy unit when it comes to strike must attack that unit.
• A model that is in base contact, or engaged,with more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows,can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its Attacks immediately before rolling To Hit.
There was no issue here either with who the Wraiths were striking. It's an issue of who gets to take the hits, the Sorc Lord, or the unit.
Allocating Wounds p.25
'After determining the number of Wounds inflicted against a unit at a particular initiative step.'
The Wraiths and the Warriors and 1 Immortal in base contact with the Warp Talon were all Initiative 2. So the total wounds inflicted at the initiative step hit all the Talons in base contact as a whole, not from each separate unit.
'A wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative step. The player controlling the models being attacked...'
THIS is the issue. Nothing is mentioned in the multiple combat rules to cover this. So while only the Wraiths were in contact with the Sorc, there is nothing forcing a player to put all of that units wounds on the Sorceror, since the rest of the Warp Talons (minus the champion) were in base contact at the Initiative step. I know most places house rule it that this is the case, or a lot of players still subconsciously treat IC's as their own unit in combat, but with his Power axe still yet to swing, he didn't want to take the hits on him till he absolutely had to. I could VERY easily be wrong on this one and have no problem admitting it. Im just not finding a rule here to support that the Wraiths attacks had to be taken on the Sorc. Lord first, so Im more wondering if this is a generally accepted way to play, or is the rule in another section that Im not seeing.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/04 18:01:14
Current Armies
40k: 15k of Unplayable Necrons
(I miss 7th!)
30k: Imperial Fists
(project for 2025)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/05 00:42:14
Subject: Multi-charge / Hammer of Wrath / Pile-in / Challenge (Was it played right?)
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Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest
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Ok, confession time - I did make an attempt at reading through the entire thread first, but the mass of quotes, requotes and paragraph splits made my head spin. I apologise if any of this is already covered and realise that my formatting below is not helping! But here goes...
Akar wrote:1) When declaring Challenges, did the Necron Lord have to accept because he was in base with a Model involved in the overall combat, or did get to decline and still participate since he was not near the Sorc Lord, or the Warp Talon Champ at the time Challenges were issued? Doesn't have to accept anyway, but he is eligible to accept - an accepting character only has to be able to fight, including being engaged (page 64).
2) At Initiative 5, the Warp Talon Champion not in base with the Warriors (but I realized now he should've been after the previous round), decides to pile-in with the Immortals since they are now all part of the same combat as a result of the Wraiths. Was this played right assuming that we hadn't forgotten that he should've been in base with the Warriors and really was not in base contact? Or would he still have to pile-in with the Warriors? As per page 27, the Champion is involved in a Multiple Combat, so there's your permission to pile-in to any unit involved *provided* you were treating the pile-in as fresh. Whether you do so depends how you wanted to play it as the rules don't cover forgetting to do things...! There is no right or wrong way to "catch up" here as per RAW.
3) At Initiative 2, the 2 wraiths that had used 'Hammer of Wrath' on the Daemonettes Pile-in to where? Are their attacks forfeit as the unit they were in base contact no longer there, or do they pile-in where I want/can get them as part of the same combat? The pile-in is at the start of their Initiative step, which again as per page 27 can be against any unit involved in the Multiple Combat. So they still get to attack.
4) After this pile-in is resolved and attacks are being declared at the different units, the Wraiths were only in base contact with the Sorcerer Lord attached to the Warp Talons. Will all attacks directed at the Warp Talons, from the Wraiths start on the Sorceror Lord? Or are all of the attacks from the same initiative directed against the Warp Talons in base contact, which would include the Warriors, allowing him to allocate to the Warp Talons in base contact with the Warriors before getting to the Lord? Page 25, you must allocate the wounds to enemy models in base contact with models striking at that Initiative step. I think Warriors and Wraiths are both Initiative 2? If so, this allows the opponent to allocate wounds caused by either unit to the Warp Talons or Lord as he chooses.
5) The 2 Wraiths that killed the Daemonettes, could I have directed their attacks at the Obliterator even if I couldn't get into base contact with him, but I could get within 2" of an Immortal in base contact with the Obliterator?
(Note: I did find a thread on this, but didn't seem to come to any conclusion based on what I found there) Page 28 - as you've seen already, there's some debate on this. But as the wording "in base contact, or engaged with" is used in both points under Directing Attacks, I'd (personally!!) say you have the choice regardless of whether one unit is in base contact and another is merely engaged.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/05 00:42:59
"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/05 17:20:54
Subject: Multi-charge / Hammer of Wrath / Pile-in / Challenge (Was it played right?)
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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Super Ready wrote:
Doesn't have to accept anyway, but he is eligible to accept - an accepting character only has to be able to fight, including being engaged (page 64).
This is the debate. Yes, the criteria for issuing the challenges only requires that the the characters be locked, so there is nothing stopping a challenge from being issued regardless of where the characters are (or in the case of CSM, they have to). This is a situation where both characters are engaged, but not with each other, or each others units. Cow is arguing that since he is engaged at all, he has met all the requirements of a challenge and has to accept, or be forced by the opponent to not swing at all. Kevin is arguing that since they are not engaged with each other that the Lord isn't required or penalized for declining. Im leaning more toward siding with Kevin because all of those rules are written based on just 1 unit from either side in the combat. So while they are all locked together, allowing the for the challenge to be issued, both units are not engaged with each other, so that condition still applies. The Multiple combat rules don't address the issue, but again, Im leaning toward looking at the challenges from a 2 unit fight, then applying them to a multiple combat vs. reading the challenge rules as applying to both single and multiple combat fights.
Super Ready wrote:
As per page 27, the Champion is involved in a Multiple Combat, so there's your permission to pile-in to any unit involved *provided* you were treating the pile-in as fresh. Whether you do so depends how you wanted to play it as the rules don't cover forgetting to do things...! There is no right or wrong way to "catch up" here as per RAW.
This has been cleared up, I realized now that the real issue was whether the Champion and Warp Talon at their pile-in step were forced to hit the Warriors first before attempting to contact other units. It was the same misinterpretation that the 2 Wraiths that killed the Daemonettes were stuck out there because the unit they were engaged with was no longer there. But thank you for your input, it solidifies what has already been said.
Super Ready wrote:
The pile-in is at the start of their Initiative step, which again as per page 27 can be against any unit involved in the Multiple Combat. So they still get to attack.
As the above statement, 'Did they have to pile-in with the unit they were engaged with at the start of the combat?' What happens if the unit is no longer there? Again sorted out, since there was no rule saying that they had to engage the unit they were in combat with at the start of the phase.
Super Ready wrote:
Page 25, you must allocate the wounds to enemy models in base contact with models striking at that Initiative step. I think Warriors and Wraiths are both Initiative 2? If so, this allows the opponent to allocate wounds caused by either unit to the Warp Talons or Lord as he chooses.
And this was what brought up the question. If the Wraiths were I3, then the Sorc would've had to start taking all the wounds/ LoS rolls. As long as the wounds are being assigned to the unit as a whole, then it's fine. We were just thinking of the nightmare of 2 Different units being hit by 2 Different units, bridged by another unit into one combat, and 1 of the 2 units in base contact taking all the hits. Rare, but it's a discussion for a different thread if someone really didn't want to apply common sense.
Super Ready wrote:
Page 28 - as you've seen already, there's some debate on this. But as the wording "in base contact, or engaged with" is used in both points under Directing Attacks, I'd (personally!!) say you have the choice regardless of whether one unit is in base contact and another is merely engaged.
I discussed this with some 40k players yesterday, and it's another 'Locked vs. Engaged' interpretation. The BRB FAQ states that while not in base contact with the Oblit, they were still locked with him. No mention is made in the FAQ if they were or were not actually engaged since none of the Wraiths were in Base contact with the Oblit. Now, the door is open since during the pile-in step, and when determining who can swing, it only states that a model must move into base contact if possible and then get within a friendly model within 2". It also says a model is engaged if it's within 2" of a friendly model in base contact. It's covered under the rules for 2 units fighting, so there wouldn't be any non-unit friendly models in base contact, that should be covered under the Multiple Combat rules. No clear definition is given of what counts as engaged is given under the Multiple Combat rules. Only that if a unit is engaged, which way they can swing. The question still remains 'Is a unit engaged with units that one model from the unit is in base contact with, or is it engaged with any unit that it is within 2" of a friendly model in base contact with?'.
Back up top, I think Cow's argument rests on this as well for the challenge, but at the time the challenge was issued, neither of the units involved were within 2" of a friendly model in base contact. This didn't happen until the pile-in step. It's also why Im leaning more with Kevin, since counting a unit within 2" of a friendly model from any unit, means that more attacks could be directed against a unit that none of the attacking unit is in base contact with. In this situation, If I was ABLE to hit the Obliterator, I could've just as easily put every available Wraith within 2" of the Immortals, and just leave the one Wraith hitting the Warp Talons.
Im still reading into it, but thank you for taking the time to read and reply. It was worth the read to get a different look on it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/06 05:24:45
Current Armies
40k: 15k of Unplayable Necrons
(I miss 7th!)
30k: Imperial Fists
(project for 2025)
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