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Ok, so if a unit of mandrakes deploys with a Haemonculus, they share the pain. The rule for sharing the pain says that when the units separate, you divide the tokens equally, and pick who gets it if there is an odd number.

If you deploy drakes with a haemi, then use Malys or something else to redeploy the mandrakes elsewhere, does anyone have any rule citations that would disallow them from taking the pain token with them?

Infiltrate USR (page 38 BRB):
An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment.

With some other unit however; would depend on what point the Pain Token gets placed. Haemy's description says 'begins the game with', would that be after deployment but before the first turn?

Quanar wrote:
Infiltrate USR (page 38 BRB):
An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment.

With some other unit however; would depend on what point the Pain Token gets placed. Haemy's description says 'begins the game with', would that be after deployment but before the first turn?

Curious though, if you deploy a Haemi, then later deploy the Mandrakes in unit coherency with the Haemi, that's legal and still makes them a unit, right? Then, you later redeploy the Mandrake elsewhere.

You're not deploying them together, yet they still become a single unit, then you split that unit up.

Hum... "An IC can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or..." was obviously written from the viewpoint of all your units being deployed at the same time, and so doesn't seem to make a distinction between character being deployed with unit and a unit being deployed around a character, but it could screw up the timing for the Haemy's token as it also says 'begins the game with' so they'd be simultaneous (and thus not be fun-able with a Maly re-deploy).

I think you'd still fall foul of the IC clause in the Infiltrate rules, but don't think I can back that opinion up with any more rules.

Quanar wrote:
Hum... "An IC can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or..." was obviously written from the viewpoint of all your units being deployed at the same time, and so doesn't seem to make a distinction between character being deployed with unit and a unit being deployed around a character, but it could screw up the timing for the Haemy's token as it also says 'begins the game with' so they'd be simultaneous (and thus not be fun-able with a Maly re-deploy).

I think you'd still fall foul of the IC clause in the Infiltrate rules, but don't think I can back that opinion up with any more rules.

Yeah, deploying after would still allow them to join per the rules, so far as I can tell. They don't have to start with the Haemi to share the token. There is a special rule called "Sharing the Pain" that outlines that when an IC and a Unit are joined, they share any pain tokens they have, then when they separate, you divide the tokens evenly. In the event of an odd number, the controller decides who takes the token.

IIRC, an IC can only leave an unit during movement phase, there is no "unless otherwise specified" under that, don't got my BRB with me atm, but I believe it's under the Independent Character's special rule.

So, no, I don't think you can use redeployment, which is in the deployment phase, to seperate an unit with its HQ, once they joined, the IC can only leave during movement phase. Also, an HQ is either joined, or not, I don't believe there is a state of "semi-joined, but they don't really care either way, they're just chilling.", unless you can find the rules for that?

Beside, why would you even want to spend 2 HQ slots and 200 or so points to buff an unit to barely playable state...?

But the Haemy doesn't get the token until the start of the game, i.e. after the end of Deployment and before the first game turn?

Interestingly (interesting to me at least), page 121 uses the wording "(apart from any units left kept as Reserves or that chose to use their Infiltrate special rule)", suggesting it is optional to Infiltrate whilst the USR itself doesn't include anything along the lines of "Units... with this special rule may be..."

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Quanar wrote:
Hum... "An IC can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or..." was obviously written from the viewpoint of all your units being deployed at the same time, and so doesn't seem to make a distinction between character being deployed with unit and a unit being deployed around a character, but it could screw up the timing for the Haemy's token as it also says 'begins the game with' so they'd be simultaneous (and thus not be fun-able with a Maly re-deploy).

I think you'd still fall foul of the IC clause in the Infiltrate rules, but don't think I can back that opinion up with any more rules.

Yeah, deploying after would still allow them to join per the rules, so far as I can tell. They don't have to start with the Haemi to share the token. There is a special rule called "Sharing the Pain" that outlines that when an IC and a Unit are joined, they share any pain tokens they have, then when they separate, you divide the tokens evenly. In the event of an odd number, the controller decides who takes the token.

You cannot join a unit by being next to an IC; the IC has to deploy in coherency with the unit.

You also dont start with a unit until the game begins, so while you could redeploy they wouldnt have the token yet

nosferatu1001 wrote:

You cannot join a unit by being next to an IC; the IC has to deploy in coherency with the unit.

You also dont start with a unit until the game begins, so while you could redeploy they wouldnt have the token yet

Technically, if you deploy a unit, then deploy another unit in coherency, they have deployed in coherency.

As to your second point, that would indeed invalidate the tactic. Do you have a page citation?

Nope, it states the IC has to deploy in coherency. Technically the only way he can do that is if the unit is already there.

IC rules, page 39 from memory, starts an IC may "start the game" by deploying in coherency.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Nope, it states the IC has to deploy in coherency. Technically the only way he can do that is if the unit is already there.

IC rules, page 39 from memory, starts an IC may "start the game" by deploying in coherency.

You completely ignored citing a page for your second point, and when the game "starts" has been hotly debated. Deployment is part of the game, which is why there are rules for it. But it will suffice to say that we could simply enter into a circular argument here about when the start of the game is, which neither side will win because it's not defined. That being the case, let's focus on the parts of the argument that MAY be proven. Please cite actual rules defining that the game doesn't begin until after deployment, or concede. (Stole that one from your playbook )

Ok, gunna stretch this a bit but: (From the Rulebook FAQ)

Page 80 – Flyers, Aerial Support
After the first sentence, add: “Note that special rules that allow an owning player to move one or more of their units into or out of Reserves after deployment but before the game begins (for example the C’Tan Shard Power‘Grand Illusion’) cannot be used to move a Flyer out of Reserves.”

Q: Can a unit with both the Infiltrate and Scout special rules deploy as Infiltrators and then make a Scout redeployment before the game begins? (p38)
A: Yes.

(Emphasis mine) - So even if we are lacking in a spelled-out RAW, we can perhaps infer intent from the above?

Throwing another spanner in the works, Lady Maly's ability doesn't say to re-deploy before the start of the game, it says "at the start of the game", which should mean that it and the Haemy's pain token fall under this:

Q: If two players have special rules or effects that occur at exactly the same time before the game begins, in what order are these effects
resolved? (p120)
A: In this instance, both effects occur simultaneously – therefore simply roll a dice for which effect occurs first as per ‘The Most Important Rule’ on page 4 of the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook.

Assuming that two simultaneous effect from the same player fall under this category as well (Since normally such effects are resolved in an order decided by the Active player - which there isn't one before the first turn).

Those are my thoughts at least, feel free to demolish.

Quanar, I agree completely. In the absence of any explicit definition of 'start of game', if you don't define it as 'first player turn onwards', a number of rules become contradictory, including the deployment rules on page 121.

Quanar wrote:
Ok, gunna stretch this a bit but: (From the Rulebook FAQ)
Q: Can a unit with both the Infiltrate and Scout special rules deploy as Infiltrators and then make a Scout redeployment before the game begins? (p38)
A: Yes.

#1 - (Emphasis mine) - So even if we are lacking in a spelled-out RAW, we can perhaps infer intent from the above?

#2 - Throwing another spanner in the works, Lady Maly's ability doesn't say to re-deploy before the start of the game, it says "at the start of the game", which should mean that it and the Haemy's pain token fall under this:

Q: If two players have special rules or effects that occur at exactly the same time before the game begins, in what order are these effects
resolved? (p120)
A: In this instance, both effects occur simultaneously – therefore simply roll a dice for which effect occurs first as per ‘The Most Important Rule’ on page 4 of the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook.

Assuming that two simultaneous effect from the same player fall under this category as well (Since normally such effects are resolved in an order decided by the Active player - which there isn't one before the first turn).

Those are my thoughts at least, feel free to demolish.

Numbered for reference. You do make valid points in both cases, however:

#1 - GW has contradicted themselves on this "beginning of the game" statement several times over the course of different books. In various FAQs, books, etc, it is inferred that the beginning of the game is at varying points. Without them directly defining what the beginning of the game is in a FAQ(Which they won't do), it would result in endless argument. The reason they won't strictly define when the game begins, is that it would make several rules which depend on the beginning of the game not function properly, no matter what static "beginning of the game" point you chose. Due to this, I have to assume that GW depends on players and TOs to apply common sense and logic to determine when the game begins, as opposed to posting a change that would require them to errata tons of their books. Unfortunately, in select circumstances, this leads to circular arguments that cannot truly be won by either side.

#2 - The rule you cited refers to when two different players have things that occur simultaneously, and in that circumstance, it would be correct. But when 1 player has 2 units under his control that do something simultaneously, numerous examples have proven that the controlling player chooses the order in which the simultaneous events are resolved. So in this case, the owner of the haemonculus and malys would decide the order that the events are resolved. As such, you'd choose to apply the pain token at the beginning of the game, then choose to apply the malys redeploy.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Nope, it states the IC has to deploy in coherency. Technically the only way he can do that is if the unit is already there.

IC rules, page 39 from memory, starts an IC may "start the game" by deploying in coherency.

You completely ignored citing a page for your second point, and when the game "starts" has been hotly debated. Deployment is part of the game, which is why there are rules for it. But it will suffice to say that we could simply enter into a circular argument here about when the start of the game is, which neither side will win because it's not defined. That being the case, let's focus on the parts of the argument that MAY be proven. Please cite actual rules defining that the game doesn't begin until after deployment, or concede. (Stole that one from your playbook )

Page 122 shows that the Game Length is the turns 1-5 plus Variable Game Length.
Are you trying to argue that deployment happens during turn 1?

This question is somewhat moot due to the fact that Malys redeploys before infiltrators get placed.

Page 53 – Lady Malys, Precognisant.
Change the second sentence to “At the start of the game, after
both sides have been deployed but before Infiltrator
deployment and Scout redeployments, the Dark Eldar player
may redeploy D3 units in his army, including placing them in
Reserve, though this may not result in more than half of your
army beginning the game in Reserve. Note that units
redeployed this way that are not placed in Reserve may not be
deployed outside of the Dark Eldar deployment zone."

rigeld2 wrote:

Page 122 shows that the Game Length is the turns 1-5 plus Variable Game Length.
Are you trying to argue that deployment happens during turn 1?

That's not what page 122 says. Game length only defines at what point the game ends. It does nothing to define when the game begins.

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:
This question is somewhat moot due to the fact that Malys redeploys before infiltrators get placed.

Page 53 – Lady Malys, Precognisant.
Change the second sentence to “At the start of the game, after
both sides have been deployed but before Infiltrator
deployment and Scout redeployments, the Dark Eldar player
may redeploy D3 units in his army, including placing them in
Reserve, though this may not result in more than half of your
army beginning the game in Reserve. Note that units
redeployed this way that are not placed in Reserve may not be
deployed outside of the Dark Eldar deployment zone."

Thank you, Bugs_N_Orks, this is certainly relevant to the discussion, and does indeed change it for Lady Malys redeployment. However, page 121 of the BRB seems to indicate that you can choose whether or not to use the infiltrate rules for a unit. (BRB, pg 121 says, "both players deploy their units, apart from any that chose to use their infiltrate special rules) This is in the deployment section, and so indicates that if you choose not to use your infiltrate special rule, you would deploy with the army regularly.

If you can choose whether or not to use the special rule, you could theoretically choose not to, then redeploy, then choose to do so with your redeployment.

@ Quanar: I bolded a section of Bugs post which further muddies the waters on when exactly "The start of the game" is. This is from the DE FAQ. As I said, they don't rigidly define it, and various books/FAQs/Codices all infer that it is at different times.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Page 122 shows that the Game Length is the turns 1-5 plus Variable Game Length.
Are you trying to argue that deployment happens during turn 1?

That's not what page 122 says. Game length only defines at what point the game ends. It does nothing to define when the game begins.

And if the game ends based on turns, when does the game begin?
The length of the game is based on turns, meaning the game cannot start before turn 1.

Stuff that happens pre-game (deployment, etc) is part of setting up the Battle, as defined on page 118.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Page 122 shows that the Game Length is the turns 1-5 plus Variable Game Length.
Are you trying to argue that deployment happens during turn 1?

That's not what page 122 says. Game length only defines at what point the game ends. It does nothing to define when the game begins.

And if the game ends based on turns, when does the game begin?
The length of the game is based on turns, meaning the game cannot start before turn 1.

Stuff that happens pre-game (deployment, etc) is part of setting up the Battle, as defined on page 118.

Not per the FAQ in the above post, Rigeld. Let's just not argue over when the game begins, ok? There is evidence on both sides, and GW refuses to rigidly define when the beginning of the game is. Until they do so, no one can win the argument because EVERYONE will be able to cite a page or FAQ that supports their side of the argument. Just in case you missed it, because I did highlight it in the edit, here it is again:

DE FAQ wrote:
Page 53 – Lady Malys, Precognisant.
Change the second sentence to “At the start of the game, after
both sides have been deployed but before Infiltrator
deployment and Scout redeployments,

This statement from the FAQ specifically defines deployment as the start of the game. There are many such statements, and there are many statements that infer that it begins on turn 1. Neither side can win here, because GW is inconsistent in it's use of "start of the game".


EDIT: spelling

I concur that start of the game is vague and ill-defined. I think that if you re-redeploy a unit so that it no longer is attached to the Haemonculous, it's not going to get that pain token. Basically you revoked the decision to join the two, so they never "share the pain".

 Mannahnin wrote:
I concur that start of the game is vague and ill-defined. I think that if you re-redeploy a unit so that it no longer is attached to the Haemonculous, it's not going to get that pain token. Basically you revoked the decision to join the two, so they never "share the pain".

Yeah, I looked for wording in the "sharing the pain" rule that would support that, prior to posting this thread. It unfortunately doesn't exist. The way sharing the pain works, it doesn't matter how they were joined, or how they separated, just that they were. I do see what you're saying about redeployment basically saying "Oh, I never deployed there to begin with" but there really isn't any wording to support that. As a matter of fact, from the purpose of redeployment being subterfuge and misdirection against your opponent, it wouldn't make sense for that to be the case. They did SEE you there, after all.(Both from a fluff perspective, and actual wargame tactics view)

Most specific rule wins:

An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment.

That part of the Infiltrate special rule says nothing about the unit using the Infiltrate rule at the time.