United Kingdom Independence Party hail victory

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**dæl**

BryllCream wrote:
edit - over-reliance on those bs "studies" is part of the reason politicians are so detatched from actual English people. You don't need a god-damn study to tell you that English people are being pushed out of areas in English cities, anyone could tell you that. And it's been going on for a long time.

Yeah who needs evidence or data or facts to make policy, what we should do is just make up what we like and make decisions that effect 60million people based on a hunch.

Noone is being "pushed" anywhere, people choose where they live. If you don't like foreigners then sure you might not want to live near them but that's your issue, not anyone elses.

**BryllCream**

dæl wrote:
BryllCream wrote:
edit - over-reliance on those bs "studies" is part of the reason politicians are so detatched from actual English people. You don't need a god-damn study to tell you that English people are being pushed out of areas in English cities, anyone could tell you that. And it's been going on for a long time.

Yeah who needs evidence or data or facts to make policy, what we should do is just make up what we like and make decisions that effect 60million people based on a hunch.

Yes, actually. Politicians should be leaders of people, not psuedo-social scientists.

dæl wrote:

Noone is being "pushed" anywhere, people choose where they live. If you don't like foreigners then sure you might not want to live near them but that's your issue, not anyone elses.

In other words, the English people do not deserve their own nation-state?

Your post is excellent, on the one hand a denial that there is such a thing as culture at all, and that all social problems can be quantified and examined, and on the other hand an insistance that the English have no right to live around other English people. Bravo

**dæl**

BryllCream wrote:
Yes, actually. Politicians should be leaders of people, not psuedo-social scientists.

Maybe it's just me, but generally I prefer decisions to be informed.

In other words, the English people do not deserve their own nation-state?

Britain is a nation state, or do you mean why can England not be solely English? Well if that's what you are after then you are a couple of thousand years behind the times.

Your post is excellent, on the one hand a denial that there is such a thing as culture at all, and that all social problems can be quantified and examined, and on the other hand an insistance that the English have no right to live around other English people. Bravo

Where did I claim there is no such thing as culture? I don't remember doing that, probably because that's not what I think. I think there is such a thing as culture, but it is redefined constantly.
All social problems can be quantified and examined.
Why would anyone have the right to say who lives near them, it's a little bit Alf Garnet to be saying who's allowed to move into the house down the street don't you think?

**BryllCream**

dæl wrote:
Maybe it's just me, but generally I prefer decisions to be informed.

There are two problems with this.

First, not everything can be quantified. This is obvious to anyone who's not in the social sciences, but it lets politicians avoid blame - "I was only doing what the evidence suggested". It also suggests that there is only one way of doing things - there is no alternative allowed, and anyone who disagrees with the philosophy of the ruling elite must be intellectually flawed. This is obviously bs.

dæl wrote:
Britain is a nation state, or do you mean why can England not be solely English? Well if that's what you are after then you are a couple of thousand years behind the times.

So no, you don't think that England should be English. Fair enough.

dæl wrote:

All social problems can be quantified and examined.

All ruling elites, throughout ages, insist that their philosophy is objectively valid. It is not.

dæl wrote:

Why would anyone have the right to say who lives near them, it's a little bit Alf Garnet to be saying who's allowed to move into the house down the street don't you think?

No. In many parts of English cities, none of the people who live there are English. Signs in the shops are not in English, people do not speak in English, and you simply can't buy English food and drink.

**Albatross**

dæl wrote:
White Britons Culturally Segregated Due To Retreat From Minority Areas
A "retreat" of white Britons from areas where minorities live is limiting cultural integration, according to research by think tank Demos. Analysis of Census 2011 figures show that 45% of ethnic minorities in England and Wales live in areas where less than half the population is white British, while 41% live in wards that are less than half white.

Trevor Phillips, former chairman of the Equalities Commission and Demos Associate, said white Britons choosing not to live in minority-dominated areas "ought to make us a little anxious". He said: "This very interesting piece of research reveals a number of vital findings about how people in England and Wales are living together. First, it shows a kind of 'Ambridge effect' - a welcome minority advance into areas previously only the preserve of the white majority.

He added: "It also demonstrates a greater degree of ethnic mixing within cities, although unfortunately this appears to be mostly between minorities. What ought to make us a little anxious is the 'majority retreat' it has unearthed - white people leaving minority-led areas and not being replaced - which isn't good news for the cause of integration."

The 4.1 million ethnic minorities who now live in white minority areas is a significant increase from the 2001 Census, when only around 1 million minority Britons lived in such wards.

A statement from Demos said: "Demos researchers attribute this mainly to white British people choosing not to move to minority-dominated areas, in what Trevor Phillips has described as 'majority retreat'. "In these areas, departing white British are replaced by immigration or by the natural growth of the minority population. Over time, the end result of this process is a spiral of white British demographic decline." But integration between ethnic minorities is now more common than it was during the last census in 2001.

Demos said minority white areas were generally multi-minority, since new British minorities such as Somalis have taken up housing vacated by established minorities, such as Afro-Caribbeans. Figures also show that more ethnic minorities are moving to live in white-dominated rural parts of the country, with fewer than 800 wards which are more than 98% white compared with more than 5,000 in 2001.

Eric Kaufmann, a professor at Birkbeck College and HuffPost blogger who carried out the detailed analysis, said: "These results present a mixed picture. While ethnic mixing and integration is being helped by more minority people moving into England's whitest areas, the most concentrated minority areas are just becoming more so. "This is essentially due to a large increase in the ethnic minority population in its areas of concentration over the past ten years due to natural growth and immigration. This trend has outpaced minorities' wider spread across the country."

David Goodhart, director of Demos, said the limited integration would lead to further problems with employment and familiarity with cultural codes. He said: "The greater concentration of the ethnic minority population means there is less opportunity for interaction with the white mainstream. One problem with this relates to employment. Most jobs come through knowing someone, and most of those hiring for good jobs are from the white majority. A growing population which is geographically separate and has limited familiarity with majority cultural codes or connection to majority networks may find its occupational mobility reduced. Canadian studies, for example, show that immigrants in cities with larger immigrant shares of the population (i.e. Toronto, Vancouver) perform less well against the national average than immigrants in smaller, less diverse cities."

Sir Andrew Green, Chairman of Migration Watch said the findings were a sign that Britain is becoming more segregated. He said: "This is extremely serious. It is undeniable evidence that we have indeed been sleepwalking into segregation as Trevor Phillips warned seven years ago and it is the clear result of Labour's mass immigration policy. Public dismay at the pace of change in our communities largely explains why so many voted as they did in last week's local elections. The case for a sharp reduction in immigration is now overwhelming; we cannot possibly integrate new arrivals on anything like the present scale."

Source

This is some pretty interesting research, and shows that it not minorities who are choosing to ghettoise themselves, as they are living in culturally diverse areas, it's just the majority culture has removed itself.

Erm, it's not saying that at all, by the way. It's saying that minorities are ghettoising themselves, and that it's exacerbated by 'white flight', essentially. You were certainly quick to jump on the it's 'all whitey's fault' bandwagon there, but I suppose that's to be expected...

**dæl**

BryllCream wrote:
First, not everything can be quantified. This is obvious to anyone who's not in the social sciences, but it lets politicians avoid blame - "I was only doing what the evidence suggested". It also suggests that there is only one way of doing things - there is no alternative allowed, and anyone who disagrees with the philosophy of the ruling elite must be intellectually flawed. This is obviously bs.

Everything can be quantified. If you can provide me with an example of something which cannot be measured then please do.
Social science certainly does not suggest there is only one way of doing things, it is not maths or physics, everything in social science is debatable and down to interpretation. But to interpret things you need to first know the data. That is what studies provide, the raw facts from the research.

So no, you don't think that England should be English. Fair enough.

Define English.

No. In many parts of English cities, none of the people who live there are English. Signs in the shops are not in English, people do not speak in English, and you simply can't buy English food and drink.

As the article I posted shows this is down to "English" people leaving areas when immigrants move in, despite immigrants moving into all areas rather than immigrant dominated ones. You can't vacate an area and then complain when the local businesses move because the market has changed. Besides, I don't actually think you're right on this, I've lived in a majorly non-white area and easily got hold of English food and drink, while also having a vast plethora of other choices.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Albatross wrote:

Erm, it's not saying that at all, by the way. It's saying that minorities are ghettoising themselves, and that it's exacerbated by 'white flight', essentially. You were certainly quick to jump on the it's 'all whitey's fault' bandwagon there, but I suppose that's to be expected...

Did you miss these bits?

First, it shows a kind of 'Ambridge effect' - a welcome minority advance into areas previously only the preserve of the white majority.
Figures also show that more ethnic minorities are moving to live in white-dominated rural parts of the country, with fewer than 800 wards which are more than 98% white compared with more than 5,000 in 2001.
While ethnic mixing and integration is being helped by more minority people moving into England's whitest areas, the most concentrated minority areas are just becoming more so.

Doesn't look like people ghettoising themselves to me. Ghettoising means living among your own culture, immigrant isn't a culture, so moving to an area with lots of immigrants of other cultures isn't ghettoisation.

**BryllCream**

dæl wrote:
BryllCream wrote:
First, not everything can be quantified. This is obvious to anyone who's not in the social sciences, but it lets politicians avoid blame - "I was only doing what the evidence suggested". It also suggests that there is only one way of doing things - there is no alternative allowed, and anyone who disagrees with the philosophy of the ruling elite must be intellectually flawed. This is obviously bs.
Everything can be quantified. If you can provide me with an example of something which cannot be measured then please do.

Love, fear, respect, unity.

dæl wrote:

Social science certainly does not suggest there is only one way of doing things, it is not maths or physics, everything in social science is debatable and down to interpretation. But to interpret things you need to first know the data. That is what studies provide, the raw facts from the research.

Anyone in politics knows that you can get "evidence" for whatever policy you want to implement. It's simply a ruse to present liberalism as being objectively and undeniably true.

dæl wrote:
Define English.

You can't define a culture.

dæl wrote:

As the article I posted shows this is down to "English" people leaving areas when immigrants move in, despite immigrants moving into all areas rather than immigrant dominated ones. You can't vacate an area and then complain when the local businesses move because the market has changed. Besides, I don't actually think you're right on this, I've lived in a majorly non-white area and easily got hold of English food and drink, while also having a vast plethora of other choices.

English people move out because foreigners move in, yes. Describing how it happens doesn't prove a point.

You clearly got lucky then. Where I live the *only* places you can get English foods are supermarkets. There are no English butchers, bakers or chip shops at all.

dæl wrote:

Did you miss these bits?

First, it shows a kind of 'Ambridge effect' - a welcome minority advance into areas previously only the preserve of the white majority.
Figures also show that more ethnic minorities are moving to live in white-dominated rural parts of the country, with fewer than 800 wards which are more than 98% white compared with more than 5,000 in 2001.
While ethnic mixing and integration is being helped by more minority people moving into England's whitest areas, the most concentrated minority areas are just becoming more so.

Doesn't look like people ghettoising themselves to me. Ghettoising means living among your own culture, immigrant isn't a culture, so moving to an area with lots of immigrants of other cultures isn't ghettoisation.

You can't blame someone for wanting to move out of an area that they lived in, if no one on their street speaks English any more.

**dæl**

BryllCream wrote:
fear, respect, unity.

All of which can be measured in a large sample, closed question questionnaire.
Love is an odd one and I'll grant you that it's pretty unmeasurable, but I'm not sure of how it pertains to social problems.

Anyone in politics knows that you can get "evidence" for whatever policy you want to implement. It's simply a ruse to present liberalism as being objectively and undeniably true.

No, you can't just make up research data, not if you wish to continue working after the peer review anyway.

You can't define a culture.

So you want England for the undefined? Awesome, I can sort you that out tomorrow.

English people move out because foreigners move in, yes. Describing how it happens doesn't prove a point.

You don't think the sequence of events is important here? People don't close down all the English shops in the hope of a flood of immigrants.

You clearly got lucky then. Where I live the *only* places you can get English foods are supermarkets. There are no English butchers, bakers or chip shops at all.

You don't think that maybe you might be unlucky, or perhaps are dealing with conformation bias?

You can't blame someone for wanting to move out of an area that they lived in, if no one on their street speaks English any more.

People that are still living on the street when it hits that level of saturation are unlikely to care. What appears to be happening is that an immigrant family or two move in and then the most xenophobic move out and so another family or two move in to the vacated property and so the slightly less, but still quite, xenophobic move out and so on.

**BryllCream**

It's pointless arguing with someone who insists that hope, fear and unity can be quantified. It's obvious that you have emotional or cultural connection to the rest of England, so it's reasonable to assume that you will not understand the feelings of the English people.

The reason UKIP are doing so well is that the entire political class thinks the way that Dael does - that if an issue happens, they should institute focus groups, speak to experts, spin the press etc. At no point does it occur to them to implement the beliefs of the people who vote them into office.

**Ketara**

BryllCream wrote:

England should be English

dæl wrote:
Define English.

You can't define a culture.

What even.....

So in effect, statements like the first are undefinable nonsense?

Although judging by most of the post, 'undefinable nonsense' strikes me as generous.

**dæl**

BryllCream wrote:
It's pointless arguing with someone who insists that hope, fear and unity can be quantified.

You didn't say hope, which is like love and is qualifiable data, you said...

fear, respect and unity

So here are some articles containing quantified data on fear of crime, respect for the police and social unity

The reason UKIP are doing so well is that the entire political class thinks the way that Dael does - that if an issue happens, they should institute focus groups, speak to experts, spin the press etc. At no point does it occur to them to implement the beliefs of the people who vote them into office.

The reason UKIP are doing "well" at the moment is because the press has been spun, people actually believe immigration is rising when net immigration has been in almost constant decline since 2004. They think that Britain has high immigration compared to the rest of Europe when it really doesn't. Also, economic decline will always see a rise in the far right, and mid term local elections and byelections will always see a massive amount of protest votes.

And yes, I do think that talking to experts is useful in deciding what course of action to take, which the powers that be don't (See Professor Nutt and his dismissal for example) when it doesn't suit their agenda. But you see I like expert knowledge and randomised trials and all that other scientific stuff which tells you what is true and what works, rather than rhetoric and pandering to the lowest common denominator.

But then I don't really mind this UKIP support as it will only achieve two things, steal Tory votes and send the Tories lurching to the right losing them the centre ground. Which just means the next election will be easily won by Labour, and while I don't support Labour they are certainly the lesser of the evils.

**purplefood**

It would be interesting to see a Lib Dem Labour coalition...

**Frazzled**

Independence Party?
That sounds remarkably American...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

, as their latest publicity states that they want to get out of the EU so they can repel and expel immigrants.

Best vote no. That sounds a whole lot like work to me. repel AND expel? DUde thats two "pels." I'm tired just typing that.

**dæl**

Frazzled wrote:

, as their latest publicity states that they want to get out of the EU so they can repel and expel immigrants.

Best vote no. That sounds a whole lot like work to me. repel AND expel? DUde thats two "pels." I'm tired just typing that.

They also want to compel those they can't repel and expel to learn English

**Albatross**

dæl wrote:

While ethnic mixing and integration is being helped by more minority people moving into England's whitest areas, the most concentrated minority areas are just becoming more so.

Doesn't look like people ghettoising themselves to me. Ghettoising means living among your own culture, immigrant isn't a culture, so moving to an area with lots of immigrants of other cultures isn't ghettoisation.

Really, you're going to start playing semantics to avoid having to admit that areas in which Immigrants are the majority aren't growing? Wow. Well, enjoy being on the wrong side of the argument for the next decade....

**dæl**

Albatross wrote:
dæl wrote:

While ethnic mixing and integration is being helped by more minority people moving into England's whitest areas, the most concentrated minority areas are just becoming more so.

Doesn't look like people ghettoising themselves to me. Ghettoising means living among your own culture, immigrant isn't a culture, so moving to an area with lots of immigrants of other cultures isn't ghettoisation.

Really, you're going to start playing semantics to avoid having to admit that areas in which Immigrants are the majority aren't growing? Wow. Well, enjoy being on the wrong side of the argument for the next decade....

I wasn't arguing semantics, I was directly responding to your post.

Albatross wrote:It's saying that minorities are ghettoising themselves.

Areas in which immigrants are the majority are growing, I even acknowledge that in the last sentence.

**Palindrome**

dæl wrote:

Areas in which immigrants are the majority are growing, I even acknowledge that in the last sentence.

Given that second generation immigrants obviously aren't immigrants, is that even true?

**MeanGreenStompa**

BryllCream wrote:

England should be English.

England should be English, you should definitely be allowed to be so. Well, whilst we're at it...

On the condition that Cornwall gets to be Cornish and we get to throw out every single saxon, roman, norman, viking, angle and anyone else we decide we don't like. Piss off back to your own side of the water!!

They come over the Tamar bridge, take our jobs, move into neighborhoods and push the property prices up and all you can smell off em is jellied eels and kidney pies. Then they breed like rabbits and cover our beautiful beaches with their offspring, set up 'artist colonies' and send their graphic designers and city financiers down to set up badly run ostrich farms or alpaca ranches.

They should learn to speak Cornish is what they should do, immigrant scum have no respect for our traditional values. I used to hear them gibbering away in their filthy mongrel tongue on the bus, if I could stop dry-heaving due to the eel smell long enough that is...

Oh yeah and they bring their invasive and demanding religion as well, Cornwall is a Pagan country and they need to follow traditional Pagan values, not demand we recognize their religion as equal, showing up these few hundred years with their 'one god' nonsense. If they don't like it, they should bugger off home!

KURNOW BYS VYKEN!

**dæl**

Palindrome wrote:
dæl wrote:

Areas in which immigrants are the majority are growing, I even acknowledge that in the last sentence.

Given that second generation immigrants obviously aren't immigrants, is that even true?

Sorry, I should have used a different terminology, 'ethnic minority' I suppose would be the correct term.

**Palindrome**

BryllCream wrote:
It's pointless arguing with someone who insists that hope, fear and unity can be quantified. It's obvious that you have emotional or cultural connection to the rest of England, so it's reasonable to assume that you will not understand the feelings of the English people. .[/i]

What a load of gak, do you seriously believe that?

**Frazzled**

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
BryllCream wrote:

England should be English.

England should be English, you should definitely be allowed to be so. Well, whilst we're at it...

On the condition that Cornwall gets to be Cornish and we get to throw out every single saxon, roman, norman, viking, angle and anyone else we decide we don't like. Piss off back to your own side of the water!!

They come over the Tamar bridge, take our jobs, move into neighborhoods and push the property prices up and all you can smell off em is jellied eels and kidney pies. Then they breed like rabbits and cover our beautiful beaches with their offspring, set up 'artist colonies' and send their graphic designers and city financiers down to set up badly run ostrich farms or alpaca ranches.

They should learn to speak Cornish is what they should do, immigrant scum have no respect for our traditional values. I used to hear them gibbering away in their filthy mongrel tongue on the bus, if I could stop dry-heaving due to the eel smell long enough that is...

Oh yeah and they bring their invasive and demanding religion as well, Cornwall is a Pagan country and they need to follow traditional Pagan values, not demand we recognize their religion as equal, showing up these few hundred years with their 'one god' nonsense. If they don't like it, they should bugger off home!

KURNOW BYS VYKEN!

Er...you're an American now. Therefore it should be.
Pinche Gringo, speak Spanish!

**Valion**

dæl wrote:
Here are some of UKIP's policies from this article.

Spoiler:

Ukip policies

Lower taxes
"Abolish the tax on work – employers' National Insurance [NI]." This would lose around £50bn a year in revenue, at a stroke, reversing all progress in cutting the deficit since 2010.
"Take 4.5 million of low incomes out of tax with a simple, flat rate income tax … Merge 20 per cent basic income tax with 11 per cent NI to create a 31 per cent flat tax on all earned incomes over £11,500." This would create another vast hole in public finances, and mean tax cuts for all higher-rate taxpayers.
"Ukip have a long-standing policy to abolish inheritance tax." This would cost about £3bn a year.
"Global warming is not proven – wind power is futile. Scrap all green taxes, wind-turbine subsidies, adopt nuclear power to free us from dependence on fossil fuels and foreign oil and gas."
"Cut taxes on small businesses." Unspecified.

Lower public spending
"Public spending is increasing and the coalition's cuts do not scratch the surface of Labour's deficit. We must cut down government if we are to return to a sound economy."
Quangos: "Bring them under Parliament's control and cut the cost substantially". No definition of "substantial".
"Make real and rigorous cuts in foreign aid." The aid budget is about £10bn a year.
"By leaving the EU we save over £45m a day plus £60bn a year due to EU trade barriers, business regulation, waste, fraud." £60bn a year is equivalent to the annual spending of the entire Education Department.

Higher public spending
"Spend an extra 40 per cent on defence annually." A cost of £19bn pa.
"Double prison places to enforce zero tolerance on crime." Cost about £4bn pa.
"Roll all state pensions and benefits into a simple, substantial citizen's pension." Uncosted.
Restore student grants, but abandon target of 50 per cent of young people going to university. Uncosted.

A better yesterday
"Only by leaving the EU can we regain control of our borders."
"Life must mean life."
"Our traditional values have been undermined. Children are taught to be ashamed of our past. Multiculturalism has split our society. Political correctness is stifling free speech."
"Support grammar schools."
"End the ban on smoking in allocated rooms in public houses, clubs and hotels."
"Hold county-wide referenda on the hunting ban."

In this thread, I learned I am a racist, because most of that sounds pretty reasonable to me.

**KalashnikovMarine**

dæl wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

, as their latest publicity states that they want to get out of the EU so they can repel and expel immigrants.

Best vote no. That sounds a whole lot like work to me. repel AND expel? DUde thats two "pels." I'm tired just typing that.

They also want to compel those they can't repel and expel to learn English

Wouldn't learning English be important if the dominant language of the nation you live in is English? Hell I'm learning basic Japanese and I'm only going to be in the country for two weeks.

**Frazzled**

I think you missed the part about multiple "pels" ...

**azazel the cat**

BryllCream wrote:First, not everything can be quantified. This is obvious to anyone who's not in the social sciences, but it lets politicians avoid blame - "I was only doing what the evidence suggested". It also suggests that there is only one way of doing things

Actually, it takes a tremendous amount of ignorance to believe that there are things we cannot quantify or that there is a singular interpretation of data. I mean, I cannot think of any social scientists, actual scientists, economists, mathematicians or, well, generally anyone except philosophers (maybe) and fools who would share that sentiment with you.

Bryllcream, as a Canadian, I'm lacking the understanding of some context here, I'm afraid, but I'm legitimately curious as to what your operational definition of "English" is, in the context of culture. I think I have a vague notion of what you're implying, but I'm not entirely certain, and before engaging with this conversation I'd appreciate being correctly informed as to exactly what you consider "English culture" to be.

Bryllcream wrote:The reason UKIP are doing so well is that the entire political class thinks the way that Dael does - that if an issue happens, they should institute focus groups, speak to experts, spin the press etc. At no point does it occur to them to implement the beliefs of the people who vote them into office.

How do the politicians know what the beliefs of the people who vote for them are, unless they hold focus groups and surveys?

This is an honest question; please let me know what your answer is.

**Mr Hyena**

purplefood wrote:
It would be interesting to see a Lib Dem Labour coalition...

Sounds like a 'Quadruple Recession and No Border Control' party to me.

How do the politicians know what the beliefs of the people who vote for them are, unless they hold focus groups and surveys?

This is an honest question; please let me know what your answer is.

The romans knew when too much bureaucracy and red tape was severely hindering their nation. In those cases, they saw fit to suspend it to actually get some work done instead of endless debate with no result,

Bryllcream, as a Canadian, I'm lacking the understanding of some context here, I'm afraid, but I'm legitimately curious as to what your operational definition of "English" is, in the context of culture. I think I have a vague notion of what you're implying, but I'm not entirely certain, and before engaging with this conversation I'd appreciate being correctly informed as to exactly what you consider "English culture" to be.

Imagine the canadian government removed all 'traditionally' canadian foods with foods traditional to some generic middle eastern country. Imagine they did the same with your customs.

Could you argue it was still canada? or a transplant of a middle eastern country?

**Easy E**

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
BryllCream wrote:

England should be English.

England should be English, you should definitely be allowed to be so. Well, whilst we're at it...

On the condition that Cornwall gets to be Cornish and we get to throw out every single saxon, roman, norman, viking, angle and anyone else we decide we don't like. Piss off back to your own side of the water!!

They come over the Tamar bridge, take our jobs, move into neighborhoods and push the property prices up and all you can smell off em is jellied eels and kidney pies. Then they breed like rabbits and cover our beautiful beaches with their offspring, set up 'artist colonies' and send their graphic designers and city financiers down to set up badly run ostrich farms or alpaca ranches.

They should learn to speak Cornish is what they should do, immigrant scum have no respect for our traditional values. I used to hear them gibbering away in their filthy mongrel tongue on the bus, if I could stop dry-heaving due to the eel smell long enough that is...

Oh yeah and they bring their invasive and demanding religion as well, Cornwall is a Pagan country and they need to follow traditional Pagan values, not demand we recognize their religion as equal, showing up these few hundred years with their 'one god' nonsense. If they don't like it, they should bugger off home!

KURNOW BYS VYKEN!

Have an exalt.

**Palindrome**

Mr Hyena wrote:

Imagine the canadian government removed all 'traditionally' canadian foods with foods traditional to some generic middle eastern country. Imagine they did the same with your customs.

This has never happened. I would dearly love to see some proof that the UK government has done this in the UK though.

**Easy E**

Mr Hyena wrote:
The romans knew when too much bureaucracy and red tape was severely hindering their nation. In those cases, they saw fit to suspend it to actually get some work done instead of endless debate with no result,

I'm not sure that is the example you want to use.

**Kilkrazy**

I like Cornish pasties and sardines!

Can't I have any more?