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Not sure about that, 50 points is quite an investment.
In my opinion the downside to MSS is the limited amount of units that can take this upgrade.

My list is already as tight as possible, I cannot spare the 3/4 Lords with MSS to put in every group.
Most of the time I'd rather have an Orb among my warriors to stop the opponent from actually getting into CC.

Luide wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
In addition, A Wraith is as hard to kill as 2 marines with Volume of fire.

So are TH/SS terminators, which are considered "the standard" for being hard to kill. Remember also that with plasma, Wraith is twice as hard to kill as TH/SS terminator. On average, about same though.

 Sasori wrote:
Wraiths are undercosted, but I honestly don't believe significantly so.

Compare them to units that are similarly tough, like TH/SS and TWC. And then take into account how much cheaper Wraiths are and how much would marine player be willing to pay for Jump Pack equipped TH/SS termies.
Personally, I'd say something they're undercosted by around 7-10 ppm. Would still be competitive at that point level, but not auto-take they're now.

Right, which is why I mentioned volume of fire, and not high AP weapons. I tend to find Wraiths themselves, while durable, are not too difficult to take down. It's the Dlord with he 2+ tanking shots, that puts them over the top.


I do compare them to TWC, and don't believe they are undercosted compared to them. TWC have several advantages over Wraiths, while Wraiths have a few over TWC.

I'd say a 5 point cost increase would be fair, 10 at most.

f MSS cost 50 points people would still buy it. It's an auto-include because it's the single best piece of HQ wargear in the game for neutralizing other commanders. Now that we have this idiotic challenge mechanic the problem is exacerbated. If we didn't have to challenge and weren't actively penalized for not accepting, it would be an appropriately costed piece of wargear.

No, people would not buy it if it was 50 points. That is far far to much.

tgf wrote:

Luide wrote:

You're saying that people are "butt hurt" as a way of deflecting all valid criticism away from you and your chosen army.

Like I said complete butt hurt, a 50/50 prop = always win.

You delibarately seem to discount the fact that the Lord can actually fight in CC. I wonder why, is it because it undermines your position, and badly?
MSS gives 50% chance of basically winning any fight with a character automatically. But if MSS fails, that doesn't mean Necron Lord lost the fight. No, it just means the fight goes on normally. If Lord has around 50% chance of winning normal fight, that adds up to 75% chance of winning it with MSS. Add Ever-living and final result is that on average, Lord is pretty much guaranteed to win the fight.

tgf wrote:
A 200+ point lord 3A at WS4 does not make a CC giant and he is hella expensive.

Why do you keep lying about that Lord being 200+ points? I've already shown that Lord with that gear is only 160 points, or 175 points with MSS. And I did it before you responded to this post. And while not a "beast", Lord is comparable to equivalent point level Marine characters in CC.

I

tgf wrote:
already said it is probably a bit cheap but remember it was designed in 7th before the retardation of close combat pile ins and it was much harder to get the desired pairing in CC every time.

Codex Necrons was designed for 6e from the start. It was plainly obvious the moment 6e launched.

You forget the Resurrection Orb, which is pretty mandatory on a Lord.

 Sasori wrote:
No, people would not buy it if it was 50 points. That is far far to much.

50/50 shot to negate any character's abilities and make him hit himself? 50/50 shot to autowin a challenge? Sounds reasonable to me. I'd say at least double the current points cost to make it anywhere near balanced.

Kangodo wrote:
You forget the Resurrection Orb, which is pretty mandatory on a Lord.

Yes, the bonus to RP is too good to pass up.

They could've at the very least, give IC a reroll on MSS, just say they have strong willpower or something.

Luide wrote:

tgf wrote:

Luide wrote:

You're saying that people are "butt hurt" as a way of deflecting all valid criticism away from you and your chosen army.

Like I said complete butt hurt, a 50/50 prop = always win.

You delibarately seem to discount the fact that the Lord can actually fight in CC. I wonder why, is it because it undermines your position, and badly?
MSS gives 50% chance of basically winning any fight with a character automatically. But if MSS fails, that doesn't mean Necron Lord lost the fight. No, it just means the fight goes on normally. If Lord has around 50% chance of winning normal fight, that adds up to 75% chance of winning it with MSS. Add Ever-living and final result is that on average, Lord is pretty much guaranteed to win the fight.

tgf wrote:
A 200+ point lord 3A at WS4 does not make a CC giant and he is hella expensive.

Why do you keep lying about that Lord being 200+ points? I've already shown that Lord with that gear is only 160 points, or 175 points with MSS. And I did it before you responded to this post. And while not a "beast", Lord is comparable to equivalent point level Marine characters in CC.

I

tgf wrote:
already said it is probably a bit cheap but remember it was designed in 7th before the retardation of close combat pile ins and it was much harder to get the desired pairing in CC every time.

Codex Necrons was designed for 6e from the start. It was plainly obvious the moment 6e launched.

I feel sorry for you, you remind me of a guy at our club. He cries about everything. Dark Lances are no fair they make my LR suck, Orks are no fair they have base 2 attacks and then my tactical squad can't beat them, Tau are no fair they remove the cover save from my squad in the ruins, chaos are no fair axe of khorne kills all my terminators. You need to toughen up or play a different game. You probably cry when you win too about how unfair the other guys army is...the guy at our club does. He wins about 40% of the time but I think he enjoys about 1 in 10 games maybe. Lastly you seem to have what I call SMS or Space Marine Syndrome, you want space marines to live up to their fluff. News flash SM Captain is widely considered to be one of the worst HQ choices and tacmarines are good at holding objectives (and not even great at that) they are out shot or out fought by just about every other unit in the game that is not generalist. Quit QQ'ing on the interwebs kid, or read the Tau codex and join one of those QQ threads, the necron QQing is really 2012.

Sheesh... There's no need to insult!

I love how some people think MSS is slowed but still love and would gladly take puppet master.

My apologies bodazoka but might I rudely ask what you mean by slowed?

On the topic of MSS, yeah it's underpriced in my personal opinion. Actually, I would claim it is arguably too good. Considering there is an army that is forced to declare challenges, considering monsterous creatures literally will kill themselves... and you still get an ap2 S7 scythe that hits at a higher initiative than a regular marine. That's bloody great in and of itself! And really, if anyone wants to use the argument that paying 200 for a force multiplying beatstick means he should kill cheaper things, then my bloodthirster (base 260), should be able to automatically stomp your character without worries of being possessed (which is more than half the time as they only have leadership 9 now).

*My apologies for my rudeness*

 StarTrotter wrote:
My apologies bodazoka but might I rudely ask what you mean by slowed?

The Forum autocorrects the word that starts with R and used to denote mental deficiency to "slowed"

haha wow... my bad :/

Rephrase: "I love how some people think MSS is bad... but still love and would gladly take puppet master"

Kangodo wrote:Not sure about that, 50 points is quite an investment.
In my opinion the downside to MSS is the limited amount of units that can take this upgrade.

My list is already as tight as possible, I cannot spare the 3/4 Lords with MSS to put in every group.
Most of the time I'd rather have an Orb among my warriors to stop the opponent from actually getting into CC.

You say there's a limited amount of units that can take, but then go on to say you could easily put one in every squad if you weren't spending the points elsewhere.

bodazoka wrote:haha wow... my bad :/

Rephrase: "I love how some people think MSS is bad... but still love and would gladly take puppet master"

Mindshackle Scarabs - 15 points, opponent must pass a leadership test on 3d6 or is incapable of making any close combat attacks that round, wounds themself, gets attacked by the Lord, is either dead is seriosly wounded, the Necron unit is unscathed, and a 250+ pt close combat monster gets destroyed by a <100 pt Character you were taking for the resiliency and boost to RP with Res Orb more than its ability to kill a Bloodthirster.

Puppet Master - Can only be used by a psyker, have to roll for it on a table, costs a warp charge, must pass a leadership test, then opponent fails Deny the Witch, roll to hit the unit shooting, roll to hit, roll to wound, opponent rolls saves and possibly Feel No Pain or Reanimation Protocols, does not prevent the targeted unit from shooting next turn.

I fail to see how they are at all similar apart from the mind control aspect.

 gpfunk wrote:
50/50 shot to negate any character's abilities and make him hit himself? 50/50 shot to autowin a challenge? Sounds reasonable to me. I'd say at least double the current points cost to make it anywhere near balanced.

No, it's not reasonable.
50 points would make sure that nobody ever takes the upgrade.

You really don't get the downside of it, do you?
Yes, the Lord WINS the challenge!
But who cares about that? The rest of the unit still wipes out the Warriors and annihilates them with a Sweeping Advance.
Instead of wiping them out for free it now costs you one character.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
You say there's a limited amount of units that can take, but then go on to say you could easily put one in every squad if you weren't spending the points elsewhere.

Yes, that makes it limited.
We have to put them on Lords and they can get quite expensive.
In most 1500-lists I take one Lord as a maximum.
So that's ONE mss in the entire army? You think you can handle that?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Mindshackle Scarabs - 15 points, opponent must pass a leadership test on 3d6 or is incapable of making any close combat attacks that round, wounds themself, gets attacked by the Lord, is either dead is seriosly wounded, the Necron unit is unscathed, and a 250+ pt close combat monster gets destroyed by a <100 pt Character you were taking for the resiliency and boost to RP with Res Orb more than its ability to kill a Bloodthirster.

Puppet Master - Can only be used by a psyker, have to roll for it on a table, costs a warp charge, must pass a leadership test, then opponent fails Deny the Witch, roll to hit the unit shooting, roll to hit, roll to wound, opponent rolls saves and possibly Feel No Pain or Reanimation Protocols, does not prevent the targeted unit from shooting next turn.

I fail to see how they are at all similar apart from the mind control aspect.

The cheesy aspect of taking control of an enemy model for a turn is what I was referring too in my original post.....

I don't like your comparison either btw, you have really skewed it to back up your opinion. If you take a beat stick 250+ point character against Necron's its your own fault for being MSS .... especially considering in your above scenario a unit of assault marines wipes out said Necron unit in 1 turn regardless of the 100 point Lord.

And don't get me started on a unit of terminators! they deep strike into my back line, take 20 RF shots from a unit, laugh, charge said unit, wipe it out, consolidate, take 20 RF shots from another unit, laugh, charge etc.......

 PrinceRaven wrote:
You say there's a limited amount of units that can take, but then go on to say you could easily put one in every squad if you weren't spending the points elsewhere.

Yes, that makes it limited.
We have to put them on Lords and they can get quite expensive.
In most 1500-lists I take one Lord as a maximum.
So that's ONE mss in the entire army? You think you can handle that?

Who are these people that put MSS in every squad? That is silly expensive and ultimately a really bad cron list. At 1500 points you should have 1, maybe 2 MSS depending on your build. If you are taking Lords with MSS for every squad and your opponents can't beat you, my guess is they are showing up on a short yellow bus. This discussion has gone from internet crybaby to internet fantasy.

I normally field 2 models with MSS. An Overlord and a D-Lord.

The only time i will field the "lower" lords is in bigger games.
(and i normally field at least 4 warrior squads in a game)

MSS is undercosted for what it does. That being said, only a bad player charges their pricey MC or character into a squad with MSS. Like it or not, you have to avoid that squad due to the high chance of pummeling yourself.

Wraiths are without a doubt under-costed by probably ~10 pts a model. Annihilation Barges are probably about 15 pts too cheap and Night Scythes are probably 25 pts or so too cheap. These little savings are what makes the army so brutal.

Ooeh, that would really hurt Necrons too much.

12 wraiths + 2 D-Lord
-4 Whip Coil and 1 MSS

3x 5 Warriors + Night Scythe

3x An-Barge

That list is quite competitive and comes down to 1495 points.
Your changes would make it 1735 and that's really overcosted for what it does and the chances it has in a tournament.

A full Wraith + D-Lord squad is pretty expensive tbh.

6 Wraiths
4 Whip coils
D-lord - Weave & MSS
= 410 points

 Sasori wrote:

Luide wrote:

Compare them to units that are similarly tough, like TH/SS and TWC. And then take into account how much cheaper Wraiths are and how much would marine player be willing to pay for Jump Pack equipped TH/SS termies. Personally, I'd say something they're undercosted by around 7-10 ppm. Would still be competitive at that point level, but not auto-take they're now.

I do compare them to TWC, and don't believe they are undercosted compared to them. TWC have several advantages over Wraiths, while Wraiths have a few over TWC.

First of all,
In order for TWC to be roughly equivalent to a wraith, they would need to take a storm sheild for the invulnerable save. That makes an equivalent TWC cost 80 points per model vs. the wraith's 35 points per model. Tell me what advantages a TWC has over a wraith that compensates for that price difference?

TWC = S5, T5, W2, I4, A4, 3+ Armor, Rending, Cavalry 50 points per model. Comes with BP + CCW. For 30 points more a storm shield upgrades the 3+ save to invulnerable.

Wraith = S6, T4, W2, I?, A4, 3++ Invuln, Rending Jump Infantry 35 points per model.

Also...

 Sasori wrote:

Wraiths are not immune to JOTWW.

Wraiths are Jump Infantry. Jump Infantry is immune to JotWW.

Second of all, if you were to do a similar comparison to TH/SS Terminators, you would find that the Wraiths have more wounds, a BETTER initiative, move a lot faster, and may sweeping advance. The upshot of the terminators is the thunderhammers and a 2+ armor save of course.

Are infantry immune to JoTWW? I'm pretty sure JI are just a subtype of infantry.

Under the section on Jump Units, pg47:

Jump infantry would, for example, follow the rules for Jump Units and Infantry.


JoTWW hurts infantry. JI follows the rules for infantry. Ergo, JoTWW hurts JI.

 Praxiss wrote:
A full Wraith + D-Lord squad is pretty expensive tbh.
6 Wraiths
4 Whip coils
D-lord - Weave & MSS
= 410 points

Again, A full TWC squad is even more expensive.
Here's a TWC squad with the storm sheilds to make their saves comparable to the wraiths', plus a lord with only a little wargear to make him comparable the destroyer lord.

5 TWC + 5 Stormsheilds (400 points)
1 Wolf Lord + Thunderwolf, Stormshield, Wolf Claw, Runic Armor (210 points)
610 points total.

What do you have to say to that? Necrons are SUPPOSED to be bad in close combat. Space Wolves are SUPPOSED to be good at it. But here is evidence that, for this unit at least, the roles are reversed.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Are infantry immune to JoTWW? I'm pretty sure JI are just a subtype of infantry.
Under the section on Jump Units, pg47:
Jump infantry would, for example, follow the rules for Jump Units and Infantry.
JoTWW hurts infantry. JI follows the rules for infantry. Ergo, JoTWW hurts JI.

There is a very large discussion about this on YMDC and also in the SW FAQ. Jump infantry are immune to JotWW because the JotWW power as written in the codex does not specifically say that Jump Infantry are affected.

EDIT : Actually it's not in the FAQ. But there is one on YMDC somewhere.

you kill wraiths with high volume S8 shots some armies are better than others, or just high volume of S4 shots like bolters. 6 bolter wounds is on average 1 dead wraith.

grugknuckle wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Are infantry immune to JoTWW? I'm pretty sure JI are just a subtype of infantry.

Under the section on Jump Units, pg47:

Jump infantry would, for example, follow the rules for Jump Units and Infantry.


JoTWW hurts infantry. JI follows the rules for infantry. Ergo, JoTWW hurts JI.

There is a very large discussion about this on YMDC and also in the SW FAQ. Jump infantry are immune to JotWW because the JotWW power as written in the codex does not specifically say that Jump Infantry are affected.

It doesn't have to. Jump Infantry are Infantry. It even says so in the BrB, as I pointed out.

To say otherwise is just silly.

tgf wrote:
Who said MSS isn't good, its awesome. Seems like there is a whole lot of MSS butt hurt in this thread. I got an idea, don't be stupid, have sarge with his 2 CCW attacks take the challenge while your blender character runs up the score in CC so you can break and run down. MSS is hardly broke, its just really really good against people who can't think outside the box, and are used to scripted play. It breaks the monotony.

Because, you know, every squad in every codex has a sergeant.

It might be a little on the cheap side, but hey so is psybolt ammo, and runes of warding, every army gets a little gift in their wargear.

You named 2 others. What's the Tyranid one - the Tervigon? Not really wargear...

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

It doesn't have to. Jump Infantry are Infantry. It even says so in the BrB, as I pointed out.
To say otherwise is just silly.

Yeah...I'm not going to argue about it in this thread. YMDC.

 Grugknuckle wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

It doesn't have to. Jump Infantry are Infantry. It even says so in the BrB, as I pointed out.
To say otherwise is just silly.

Yeah...I'm not going to argue about it in this thread. YMDC.

Okey doke.

I'll just do a bit of copy pasta then

Edit: Bah, can't find it. Can't be bothered.