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 Grugknuckle wrote:
TWC = S5, T5, W2, I4, A4, 3+ Armor, Rending, Cavalry 50 points per model. Comes with BP + CCW. For 30 points more a storm shield upgrades the 3+ save to invulnerable. lolAcute senses.

Wraith = S6, T4, W2, I2, A4, 3++ Invuln, Rending Jump Infantry 35 points per model. Unit ignores both difficult and dangerous terrains. And to be very fair, at least half of them would be armed with whip coils, to reduce the enemy unit to I1.

Not disagreeing, just fixing.

I can see the main advantage of TWC being that they're T5, so much harder to ID, as well as taking less wounds, whereas wraiths could be IDed by anything S8+, providing they fail their saves, or the wound isn't being placed on the dlord. While wraiths' whip coil's bonus is something TWC can never match, as well as that they can just go anywhere(bar impassable? Since they auto-pass dangerous terrain test...). Movement speed-wise, they're about the same, both ignoring difficult terrains, while TWC can be "slowed down" by the fact they treat every difficult terrain as dangerous, they have the advantage of fleet during assault, and wraiths only get a fleet-like bonus if they hadn't moved 12" in the movement phase.

Personally, I think there is no way you could compare TWC with wraiths, wraiths would win everytime.

Wraiths are 45 points with the coil. Just pointing that out.

Wraiths also have 3 attacks, not 4. No idea where you are getting the 4th attack from.

 Grugknuckle wrote:
What do you have to say to that? Necrons are SUPPOSED to be bad in close combat. Space Wolves are SUPPOSED to be good at it. But here is evidence that, for this unit at least, the roles are reversed.

Necrons, as an army, are still bad in CC compared to Space Wolves.
Not just bad, terribly bad!
One unit doesn't change that =/

Ooh, let's compare more stuff!
Space Wolves are supposed to be bad in shooting and Necrons are supposed to be good.
Yet almost any SW-unit beats Scarabs and Flayed Ones in shooting!

The comparisons in this forum are getting worse every day.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wraiths are 45 points with the coil. Just pointing that out.

Wraiths also have 3 attacks, not 4. No idea where you are getting the 4th attack from.

Argh! I checked my codex for the wraithflight but forgetting to check the attacks! I failed at fixing...

Kangodo, the differences between Grugknuckle's comparison and your "mocking" comparison are:

1) It was initiated by a Necron player, Sasori, I believe, in attempt to show that a similar costed and similar purpose unit in SW is about the same as wraiths, whether he succeeded at that is, well, up for debate.

2) They're comparing 2 CC units, whereas your "mocking" comparison is comparing a shooting unit to units that can't even shoot, they are not equivalent...

Can necron players not just stay civil in a topic like this? It makes me feel bad for being one of the necrons.

Wraiths are Jump Infantry. Jump Infantry is immune to JotWW.

In 5th Edition,they were. Welcome to 6th.

It's laid out quite clearly as RAW in the BRB. You're just flat out wrong. You can choose to believe what you want, but the fact that there has been a consensus on this, in every major tournament, speaks a lot more than your ill-informed opinion.

Baronyu wrote:

 Grugknuckle wrote:
TWC = S5, T5, W2, I4, A4, 3+ Armor, Rending, Cavalry 50 points per model. Comes with BP + CCW. For 30 points more a storm shield upgrades the 3+ save to invulnerable. lolAcute senses.

Wraith = S6, T4, W2, I2, A4, 3++ Invuln, Rending Jump Infantry 35 points per model. Unit ignores both difficult and dangerous terrains. And to be very fair, at least half of them would be armed with whip coils, to reduce the enemy unit to I1.

Not disagreeing, just fixing.

I can see the main advantage of TWC being that they're T5, so much harder to ID, as well as taking less wounds, whereas wraiths could be IDed by anything S8+, providing they fail their saves, or the wound isn't being placed on the dlord. While wraiths' whip coil's bonus is something TWC can never match, as well as that they can just go anywhere(bar impassable? Since they auto-pass dangerous terrain test...). Movement speed-wise, they're about the same, both ignoring difficult terrains, while TWC can be "slowed down" by the fact they treat every difficult terrain as dangerous, they have the advantage of fleet during assault, and wraiths only get a fleet-like bonus if they hadn't moved 12" in the movement phase.

Personally, I think there is no way you could compare TWC with wraiths, wraiths would win everytime.

Thunderwolf Cavalary have the advantage of +2 more base attacks, T5, Counterattack, I4, grenades, and Always getting Hammer of Wrath on the charge. You pay the Extra points for a unit that is much more effective in combat, Can charge into terrain without penalty and on the charge are much more dangerous, than Wraiths are. Thunderwolf Cav is also more durable to most volume of fire, compared to Wraiths, who are more durable against higher AP weapons. Wraiths are also much more vulnerable to Instant Death.

They both have their strengths and weaknesses, Wraiths are only better than TWC in some situations. TWC are better than Wraiths in some situations. Neither are flat out better than the other, unlike what Gregknuckle is trying to say.

It doesn't really matter who compared them, it still doesn't work like that.
It's not quite a "similar purpose" unit.
Wraith-purpose is to kill the stuff that survives the shooting and comes too close, or to kill the stuff that cannot be shot down.

I'm really getting tired of those short-sighted arguments.
"Necrons are shooty so they can't have any good CC-units!"
"MSS-rules are overpowered, so Necrons can't have it!"

Despite all the "overpowered" CC-rules, we are still an army that dies to CC.
You can't and you shouldn't look at units/wargear without context.

 Sasori wrote:
Thunderwolf Cavalary have the advantage of +2 more base attacks, T5, Counterattack, I4, grenades, and Always getting Hammer of Wrath on the charge. You pay the Extra points for a unit that is much more effective in combat, Can charge into terrain without penalty and on the charge are much more dangerous, than Wraiths are. Thunderwolf Cav is also more durable to most volume of fire, compared to Wraiths, who are more durable against higher AP weapons. Wraiths are also much more vulnerable to Instant Death.

They both have their strengths and weaknesses, Wraiths are only better than TWC in some situations. TWC are better than Wraiths in some situations. Neither are flat out better than the other, unlike what Gregknuckle is trying to say.

Ah, good point, now I see what you mean. Though, it may just be the after-effect of playing DE, I just feel loss of initiative is way worse than what TWC can bring, but I totally see what you mean now, and I don't disagree.

And well, Kangodo, yes, I agree that it is rather tiresome to see people still holding onto the style of the old necron dex, which I believe was much more shooty focused. Necron is a primarily shooty army but with good assault unit this edition, not the short range Tau-alike any more! They really need to get their view of necrons updated. But still, it wouldn't hurt to try and see it from the other side:

Wraiths are amazingly priced for what they can do, it completely solved the low initiative problem of necrons by making everyone lower initiative. The amount of high strength rending attacks and the speed they can move at is also amazing. Their resilience is also something worth noting, the popular setup with D-lord not only up their offensiveness with PE, it also gives them that res orb EL 2+ T6 HQ to absorb some wounds, making them even more durable. Lastly, there's the whipcoils debuff.

And MSS, well, imagine if your high-priced HQ just murdered himself with very little effort from your opponent(he only spent some points, a measly 15~ points at that!), how would you feel? It's quite a bit different from puppet master or JotWW or other deadly things, puppet master or JotWW for example, are both psychic power, they need to do a psychic test, we can deny the witch, then more dice have to be rolled before they can hurt, MSS on the other hand is a relatively-cheap upgrade that only requires 3 dice to be rolled, and hurts are served, the only counter is to stay the hell away from them, but it's often harder depending on the list of both sides(I can't imagine it being easy to run away from d-lord wraiths). Personally, I just think it'd be fairer if MSS doesn't have such a high trigger rate, 50%~ is really too good for that point cost, and I'm not being glass half-emptied! To top it off, units that can bring MSS aren't bad at CC at all, I've thrown my warscythe overlord alone into an enemy unit and wipe them out in a single turn! If character with IC rules are allowed to re-roll MSS, it may reduce the crying just a bit.

And then we have the amazingly cheap and effective anni-barges, flyers, an entire unit of PE shooters(pea shooters, heh), etc... As well as all the favourable updates from GW, it really is hard to blame anyone to see us as a tad overpowered now, I'd say. But as tgf said pages ago, the problem is really that every codices should be updated to be Necrons-good, rather than Necrons having to be nerfed.

Eh, I don't consider a res orb to be that useful in a wraith squad. You are spending 30 points to give a single model a slightly better chance at surviving. Not really worth it imo.

A sempiternal weave carrying D. Lord is still very good at absorbing those krak missile.

As odd as it sounds, I never had an MC/IC commit suicide. The MSS usually just buys me some time.

Kangodo wrote:
It doesn't really matter who compared them, it still doesn't work like that.
It's not quite a "similar purpose" unit.
Wraith-purpose is to kill the stuff that survives the shooting and comes too close, or to kill the stuff that cannot be shot down.

That's a rather narrow view of them that wastes much of their mobility, they make a great aggressive shock assault unit that can open up a path for the rest of your army. Lots of S6 attacks on fast moving W2 3+invul units can put a lot of hurt on stuff and can usually get stuck in by turn 2.

Despite all the "overpowered" CC-rules, we are still an army that dies to CC.

I've seen Nid and Berzerker armies also be defeated through CC too, that doesn't mean they're bad at it. CC is a good avenue to defeat Necron troops usually, but Necrons can still run fearsomely effective CC lists of their own.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
As odd as it sounds, I never had an MC/IC commit suicide. The MSS usually just buys me some time.

I lose MCs all the time, especially between the Warscythe and MSS.
And remember, it's your choice to trigger Force, not his. So if a Dreadknight fails MSS it's one wound to remove him (and a psychic test) if he didn't spend his warp charge already.

Oh yeah, the IC usually dies to the scythe, but never to the MSS. The MSS does buy the lord the time to use his scythe . Force Weapon wielders tend to pass their LD tests on me. It's kind of annoying.

Kangodo wrote:
I'm really getting tired of those short-sighted arguments.
"Necrons are shooty so they can't have any good CC-units!"
"MSS-rules are overpowered, so Necrons can't have it!"

Despite all the "overpowered" CC-rules, we are still an army that dies to CC.
You can't and you shouldn't look at units/wargear without context.

Getting a bit confused here. Earlier you said one of the Necron's only weaknesses is CC. Add in the best commander wargear in the game for CC and a great dedicated melee squad (wraiths) and suddenly it looks like Necrons don't have any weaknesses, don't it?

Here's some context. One of the most common ways I see of running a lord is by himself in a CCB. He's a single model unit that can make sweep attacks and can disembark if he ever wants to assault. Now you can't "sweep" his unit because he's all there is and you have to deal with the fact that if you do try to shoot him down or beat him up with a generic squad that he will (generally) have a 4+ to magically reappear. He hits WAY above his points level.

If you made that wargear more expensive there would be less complaints. As I said earlier...maybe you missed it...at least double the current cost would be a start. If you're really only using it as a CC deterrent then you should only be taking it on strategic lords that will be hanging with your warrior blobs right? 30 points is much more reasonable.

You're pretty much the only one in the thread who hasn't admitted that it's at least undercosted for what it does.

@gpfunk.
I'd have to disagree.
The gear and Wraiths make it less of a weakness.
It's like I said before:
A blob of Crons will be wiped away in CC.
A blob of Crons with a geared Lord will be wiped away in CC, but it will make the enemy bleed for it.

And to be honest, I have never seen an Overlord in a CCB.
That's except for the one time I tried it and it got focussed to death in no time.
Don't forget that a CCB with Lord (+MSS, PS, WS) is the same price as a Land Raider!

A D-Lord with MSS and SW is also 160 points.
They increased the D-Lord's MSS-cost because he is more likely to get into melee.

You're pretty much the only one in the thread who hasn't admitted that it's at least undercosted for what it does.

1. That's not an argument.
2. No, I'm not the only one.

Well, as you can see from the debate, this is quite subjective.

I still stand by -
* Pay attention to the mission
* kill entire units to prevent WBB
* leverage long range shooting advantages in full army support.
* units you can't kill, tie up.

yes, they have a lot of powerful units, but honestly its that they are very forgiving to mistakes.
If you make fewer mistakes, this takes away some of this advantage.

best of luck!

Kangodo wrote:

A blob of Crons will be wiped away in CC.
A blob of Crons with a geared Lord will be wiped away in CC, but it will make the enemy bleed for it.

1. That's not an argument.
2. No, I'm not the only one.

You're looking at a unit out of context now aren't you? You say without a shadow of a doubt that blobs of warriors will always be wiped in CC. Not true in the slightest. Take a generic CSM assault unit. How about a similar blob of CSM? None of their attacks ignore your armor which means you'll save half of the wounds dealt and because of your toughness it will be harder to wound you. If you have a Lord in the unit then you are guaranteed a kill on the Sarge, and you have a high leadership to test against if you lose combat. Then you have a 4+ to get back up because if you aren't taking your res orb then you're doing it wrong, right?

Then...and check this out...next turn you're likely to win combat against them because the Lord doesn't have to worry about challenging anymore and can go to town on that paper thin 3+ armor.

And you're right, it's not an argument. It's something called an observation. You and a few hold outs. It's undercosted. Period.

You seem to think that everyone saying Necrons are unilaterally imbalanced annoy you because it's not true. Others might find your view that they are unilaterally balanced equally annoying because it's not true. I'm simply saying that it's an undercosted piece of wargear, you've offered no argument against that other than "Necrons are going to lose CC anyway" which is rather vague and in various cases, untrue. Especially with nerf to assualt in 6th and the strength of necron overwatch (not as good as tau mind you, but quite powerful).

Will they able to deal as many wounds as they take? With the CSM's T4, 3+ save and their 3 attacks each (I think, I'm not sure about the new ones), I don't think so.

There's a reason why necrons hate sweep.

I have to wonder what sort of Necron players you folks are running into that put MSS Lords in every unit of Warriors.

They look great on paper, but the points and opportunity costs often don't add up. A S5/T5 Marine Sergeant with I2 for 50 points. Not only that, but attaching that Lord often means you aren't attaching a Cryptek (unless somebody wants to shell out a ton more for a 2nd Overlord). All that for a 50/50 chance to screw with a single model? A randomly selected model, mind you (since Necrons rarely charge, you put in the MSS effect before challenging). To top it off, Warriors are godawful in assault, even against basic Space Marines. I2 and a 4+ save is a recipe for disaster when it comes to close combat.

Maybe the Overlord is giving you a hard time. The 205 point foot model (Scythe, MSS, Weave, Orb, Phase Shifter). Seriously? Once again, charge them, don't put your IC in BtB with his boss man, have some schmuck take the MSS test, run them down in assault and spread 3" out to prevent the Overlord from reanimating.

Command Barge? The 80 point open-topped transport that takes him away from units to hide in. He's fearsome in assault until you realize his mighty steed is open-topped AV11 on the rear. Whoops. There's a reason folks don't take them any more.

Destroyer Lord? Sure, he's a beat stick. Shame about the lack of Royal Court and invulnerable save.

I'm sorry you can't run your 300 point worldkiller into a Necron army and steamroll them, really I am. Necrons don't really have dedicated, all comers combat units. They have anti-combat units that excel at shutting down enemy CC units. That's Wraiths and MSS dudes. They'll tear up solo DPs, Hive Tyrants and the like, but get punked by cultists and Boyz. Scarabs shred vehicles and can tie things down indefinitely, but aren't winning a lot of combats unless you have a huge swarm. Spyders are very durable for 50 points, but are limited by their movement and WS2/A2. Lychguard, Praetorians, Flayed Ones and C'tan may as well not exist.

Hell, if there's anything to really get bent out of shape over it has to be Harbingers of the Storm. 25 points for a 4 shot Haywire gun that can hop out of a Night Scythe moving 24"? Even I feel dirty using them.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Will they able to deal as many wounds as they take? With the CSM's T4, 3+ save and their 3 attacks each (I think, I'm not sure about the new ones), I don't think so.
There's a reason why necrons hate sweep.

I'm not sure about exact math i'd have to take some time to work it out. But I am absolutely sure they would be able to deal enough wounds to stay locked or at least to have a decent chance to pass leadership, especially with the lord around. I'm just thinking about it in basic terms of number of attacks.

40 shots on the way in means about 7 will hit, 2/3rds will wound, so about 4. Two thirds of those saved, means about 2 dead marines on the way in. Then they have to make whatever charge they need. Champion gets challenged out so that'll be 51 attacks on the charge. WS4 vs WS4 means half hit, so 25-ish. S4 vs T4 means wounding on 4+ so a third successfully wound. 12ish wounds dealt, half of which are saved by 4+ armor so you've got roughly 6 dead warriors on the charge.

Necrons swing back. 14 attacks at WS4, half hit, 9 total. S4 vs T4, means half wound. 4-5ish. 2/3rds are saved. Roughly two dead marines. The Necron Lord attacks the Champion. If the champion is naked then he's toast. He'll get 4 attacks on the charge, roughly 1 will hit, and roughly none will wound. That's if he gets to attack as he'll fail his LD9 check against the scarabs about 2/3rds of the time. If he has a maul he'll get 1 wound through, and if he has an axe he will be killed before he strikes. They lose by three and then have a 60% chance to pass leadership on a 7. Which is theoretically the most common result from 2d6.

This is hardly the route that most people seem to think will happen. The numbers are fairly ambiguous and could easily roll either way. Necrons don't auto-fold in combat.

If they pass then 50% of their casualties rise from the grave and 3 warriors come back. Next round looks incredibly bleak for the CSM.

This is assuming that the CSM have been untouched as they've moved upfield. Assuming they didn't fail any LD9 tests from shooting casualties, and assuming they even make the charge. Lots of assumptions.

If we're shying away from vacuums then you can assume that those CSM would take casualties trying to move upfield, and would have to get within 7" of the necrons to reliably pull of a charge. Very tall order, especially with how strong necron's mid range shooting is.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chumbalaya wrote:
They have anti-combat units that excel at shutting down enemy CC units. That's Wraiths and MSS dudes. They'll tear up solo DPs, Hive Tyrants and the like, but get punked by cultists and Boyz.

They'll certainly not be punked by cultists. Not even close. They have a 6+ armor which is negated by most of the guns in the necron arsenal, then they have to make it all the way upfield and make it into combat. If your cultists magically make it to them without taking a single casualty, then they have a solid shot.

 gpfunk wrote:
They'll certainly not be punked by cultists. Not even close. They have a 6+ armor which is negated by most of the guns in the necron arsenal, then they have to make it all the way upfield and make it into combat. If your cultists magically make it to them without taking a single casualty, then they have a solid shot.

Cultists charging Wraiths? Hell no, this is Wraiths on the attack. Lots of bodies and lots of attacks are what do Wraiths in, which cultists/boyz/guardsmen have in spades.

 Chumbalaya wrote:
Hell, if there's anything to really get bent out of shape over it has to be Harbingers of the Storm. 25 points for a 4 shot Haywire gun that can hop out of a Night Scythe moving 24"? Even I feel dirty using them.

Now why'd you have to bring those up!? lol

They are perhaps my favorite upgrade right now.

5 Warriors, Harbinger of the storm, Night Scythe - this is the best vehicle deletion unit in the game. I average about 4 hull points every time the unit shoots.

 Dand218 wrote:


35pts per model gets you a S6, T4, rending beast that has a 3+ invul and 4 attacks on a charge. Without adding the pistol)

Dark Eldar Codex: 35pts gets you a S5 T5 infantry unit that has a 6+ armour save, FnP and 4 attacks on the charge. It has 3 wounds. It also kills itself and stuff around it if it fails a leadership test (on LD 3)... Just a bit of comparison for you..

 Chumbalaya wrote:
Cultists charging Wraiths? Hell no, this is Wraiths on the attack. Lots of bodies and lots of attacks are what do Wraiths in, which cultists/boyz/guardsmen have in spades.

Consider that Wraiths have incredible mobility as compared to cultists and can choose their battles accordingly. The wraiths have the advantage in that they can move where the cultists are not far easier than the other way around. You leave the cultists to the warriors that just shred them with their basic weapons.

 gpfunk wrote:
Consider that Wraiths have incredible mobility as compared to cultists and can choose their battles accordingly. The wraiths have the advantage in that they can move where the cultists are not far easier than the other way around. You leave the cultists to the warriors that just shred them with their basic weapons.

We're talking actual game situations, not hypotheticals run in a vacuum to support your argument. Wraiths hopping around is all well and good, but when you have to dislodge something on an objective it doesn't matter. Warriors are just shooting bolters and the vast majority of the time those units will be in some sort of cover. You're not doing appreciable damage unless the Warriors are in rapid fire range, then they're getting charged and run down by Cultists/Boyz/whatever.

 Chumbalaya wrote:

 gpfunk wrote:
Consider that Wraiths have incredible mobility as compared to cultists and can choose their battles accordingly. The wraiths have the advantage in that they can move where the cultists are not far easier than the other way around. You leave the cultists to the warriors that just shred them with their basic weapons.

We're talking actual game situations, not hypotheticals run in a vacuum to support your argument. Wraiths hopping around is all well and good, but when you have to dislodge something on an objective it doesn't matter. Warriors are just shooting bolters and the vast majority of the time those units will be in some sort of cover. You're not doing appreciable damage unless the Warriors are in rapid fire range, then they're getting charged and run down by Cultists/Boyz/whatever.

Sounds like you're running your unit in a vacuum. The vacuum is that it's a one objective game and that is the only objective I can take to win.

20 shots, 2/3rds hit, 13 hits. 3+ to wound, 8.58 wounds. If you in heavy cover (ADL or Ruins) you save half of those so 4-5 dead cultists. If you're in any other cover you have 6.58 dead cultists. If you have 35 cultists then you've lost a third of them in two rounds of shooting meaning that your combat effectiveness has been reduced significantly. That's one unit of warriors. If I really need that objective...I mean if I really need it then I'll put more than one unit into shooting it.

You're saying, in a vacuum where a max wraith squad and a maxed CCW cultists squad get in a fight, the cultists will most likely win. In a battlefield situation, where there are multiple objectives or I DON'T need to charge your cultists, they're far less effective at doing anything. Especially since they won't be able to offer up any firepower beyond 12".

I figure I will write a guide for dealing with MSS since it does seem to be at the heart of the butt hurt.

1. Don't be stupid.
2. Refer to rule 1.

Long version

Looks like you might get charged next turn
-surround character with peons for no base to base, if sarge in squad put sarge up front. If no sarge in squad move character toward rear so they will not be eligible for a challenge but will get to fight on pile in move.

You are going to charge.
-peon make contact with MSS
-you choose MSS trigger
-then issue challenge


See its really all about not being stupid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Dand218 wrote:


35pts per model gets you a S6, T4, rending beast that has a 3+ invul and 4 attacks on a charge. Without adding the pistol)

Dark Eldar Codex: 35pts gets you a S5 T5 infantry unit that has a 6+ armour save, FnP and 4 attacks on the charge. It has 3 wounds. It also kills itself and stuff around it if it fails a leadership test (on LD 3)... Just a bit of comparison for you..

Lone cryptek of dispair kills entire squad no FNP, no Sv, all ID. Other than that grotesques aren't bad when paired with hami

tgf wrote:
I figure I will write a guide for dealing with MSS since it does seem to be at the heart of the butt hurt.

1. Don't be stupid.
2. Refer to rule 1.

What an amazing guide! I know! I'll write a guide on winning.

1. Don't lose.
2. Refer to rule 1.

You should write full tactica.

tgf wrote:
I figure I will write a guide for dealing with MSS since it does seem to be at the heart of the butt hurt.

1. Don't be stupid.
2. Refer to rule 1.

Cute.

Looks like you might get charged next turn
-surround character with peons for no base to base, if sarge in squad put sarge up front. If no sarge in squad move character toward rear so they will not be eligible for a challenge but will get to fight on pile in move.

Yeah, this works really well with MCs. Oh, wait - there's only 1 MC in the game that this would work with, the Riptide. Nevermind.

You are going to charge.
-peon make contact with MSS
-you choose MSS trigger
-then issue challenge

You keep assuming that every assault unit has a "peon". That's so false it hurts.


See its really all about not being stupid.

Edited by Manchu

tgf wrote:

BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Dand218 wrote:


35pts per model gets you a S6, T4, rending beast that has a 3+ invul and 4 attacks on a charge. Without adding the pistol)

Dark Eldar Codex: 35pts gets you a S5 T5 infantry unit that has a 6+ armour save, FnP and 4 attacks on the charge. It has 3 wounds. It also kills itself and stuff around it if it fails a leadership test (on LD 3)... Just a bit of comparison for you..

Lone cryptek of dispair kills entire squad no FNP, no Sv, all ID. Other than that grotesques aren't bad when paired with hami

Yeah, but if your haemy gets challenged he will probably die (due to his low initiative and not so goodness in combat), and when he dies, your Grotesques just run off the board. Trust me, I played a game today against CSMs, had Rakarth and 3 Grotesques on one side of the board, a Maulerfiend got into combat with them in one turn. Rakarth died. My Grotesques got run down. It lost me the game.. Not very good, I think I'll just take another Ravager next time, they seem to do far batter x)

 PrinceRaven wrote:
That's all very nice for people with Assault Marines and Terminators. Also, how is it my fault for taking a beatstick? Do you think I list tailor? Because if I did and I decided to take my regular list with 6 Monstrous Creatures knowing I was up against someone spamming MSS you'd be right, but I don't tailor my lists, I play TAC lists and just show up and play,

7 out of 15 codices can take assault's and terminator's, not including variant's of space marine chapters. Orc's have there own CC variant which is arguably better and Tyranids have genestealers...

Whose fault would it be if it wasn't yours? you are the one who decided to bring a knife to a gun fight!

If you play a TAC list you wont have a problem with MSS, its only cheese MC lists that would. If you have a cheese MC list then you deserve to be MSS!!!