Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Alfndrate wrote:
People behind bars for life are also afforded the same appeals process are they not?

Not quite, in death penalty cases, the appeals are required and automatic even if the condemned does not want one and they are required to be heard. This is done specifically because there is no going back.

efarrer wrote:

THe saddest thing about this was that he had been seeking help, but getting crazier as the event came closer. The fact that the police had been notified in advance that he was a threat is one of the sadder points and an indictment not of the madman but of the mental health (and justice) systems/.

Interesting viewpoint. I think it much sadder that a bunch of unarmed innocent folks trying to enjoy a movie got gunned down.

I have no sympathy nor empathy for the gun man, regardless of his mental state. My sympathies lie with the victims and their families.

Law doesn't work on sympathy, it can on sentencing, but provision of guilt is outside of the concept of whether someone is deserving of sympathy or not. At least that is how its supposed to work.

Remember the justice system strives to be above those it is trying, hence such concepts as insanity pleas. I have no problems with the plea, frankly from what we know of the case it makes sense. What doesn't make sense is the accused's rights to be released if considered cured by his mental professionals. In cases like this an insanity plea if accepted should automatically be commuted to mandatory lifelong incarceration in a secure facility.

 Alfndrate wrote:
People behind bars for life are also afforded the same appeals process are they not?

In many JDs death sentences have auto appeals. However there is nthing stopping a lifer from appealing and generally being a nuisance.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have appeals, just that they shouldn't have so darn many of them. And no automatic appeals. They should be voluntary actions of the guilty party and his defense team(and yes, at this point he is guilty per original trial)

 Grey Templar wrote:
I'm not saying they shouldn't have appeals, just that they shouldn't have so darn many of them. And no automatic appeals. They should be voluntary actions of the guilty party and his defense team(and yes, at this point he is guilty per original trial)

They're automatic to remove any possibility of coercion. If an appeal is automatic, you cannot threaten someone's family to make them drop it.

Like every other constitutional matter, this is about more than one person, it's about the precedent you set for darker times which may come in the future.

We make the appeals automatic in an attempt to eliminate any remaining shred of doubt. You should not have a problem with this. Wanting to be absolutely sure before you enact an irreversible punishment is not some liberal hippy nonsense, it's common sense.

The thing to remember is that the death penalty, particularly in the American south, has a history of being used as a means to legally lynch someone. That is why the appeals are automatic. Let's suppose you get convicted in a rural area and you get sentenced to death. The local lawmen who arranged your conviction have every reason not to want you to appeal it, so they tell you that they'll hurt your loved ones if you appeal.

efarrer wrote:
THe saddest thing about this was that he had been seeking help, but getting crazier as the event came closer. The fact that the police had been notified in advance that he was a threat is one of the sadder points and an indictment not of the madman but of the mental health (and justice) systems/.

While I understand the sentiment you are trying to make, I must disagree with what I consider to be a very poor choice of words, considering the incident involved the mass murder of people who just wanted to go see a Batman movie.

Frazzled wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
People behind bars for life are also afforded the same appeals process are they not?

In many JDs death sentences have auto appeals. However there is nthing stopping a lifer from appealing and generally being a nuisance.

I know, right? Damn those people who are able to find and demonstrate legitimate legal fault in the reasoning for them being incarcerated for the rest of their lives.

Grey Templar wrote:I'm not saying they shouldn't have appeals, just that they shouldn't have so darn many of them. And no automatic appeals. They should be voluntary actions of the guilty party and his defense team(and yes, at this point he is guilty per original trial)

I want you to read about these guys, and then tell me if you still think that. Please keep in mind the question of whether you think a mentally handicapped man, who might not possess the mental faculties to properly instruct his counsel, will be capable of taking the necessary actions of pursuing his own appeal.

I think he means it's possibly more tragic it could have been prevented so easily but it wasn't.

For a mentally handicapped person, the person who has power of attorney can make the decision to put forth an appeal. Under the advice of the person's lawyer.

If said person doesn't have someone who has power of attorney maybe they need one. Or they aren't actually mentally handicapped to the point where they would be unable to make their own appeal.

And we aren't complaining about those who have proven they were wrongly sentenced. Its those who have been quite handily shown to be guilty, as in we are 100% they did it, that are annoying and wasting our tax dollars.

 Grey Templar wrote:
For a mentally handicapped person, the person who has power of attorney can make the decision to put forth an appeal. Under the advice of the person's lawyer.

And if they are coerced or threatened? It's like you have no historical understanding of show trials in the south.

If said person doesn't have someone who has power of attorney maybe they need one. Or they aren't actually mentally handicapped to the point where they would be unable to make their own appeal.

Better idea, leave the appeals mandatory because that's the most constitutionally sound option that nobody can slip through the cracks on. You know, unless you're just completely attached to being a bloodthirsty savage.

And we aren't complaining about those who have proven they were wrongly sentenced. Its those who have been quite handily shown to be guilty, as in we are 100% they did it, that are annoying and wasting our tax dollars.

This is what the appeals process is FOR, dude. The entire POINT of appeals is to be sure. You don't get to just declare that we're totally sure about SOME People but not others.

Meh fine. I see your point.

Not unexpected. Either prison or nut house, the man should not be free again.

Colorado does have the death penalty, so it's a good ploy to avoid it. It's in the court's hands, now.

Yeah on topic, he definitely made the optimal play for his situation. His defense is being smart here. This is the best chance he has at not-death.

It's probably his only way for it, as I doubt the DA would take a plea to avoid the death penalty.

 Grey Templar wrote:
For a mentally handicapped person, the person who has power of attorney can make the decision to put forth an appeal. Under the advice of the person's lawyer.
If said person doesn't have someone who has power of attorney maybe they need one. Or they aren't actually mentally handicapped to the point where they would be unable to make their own appeal.

IIRC you cant or at least should be able to execute a mentally handicapped person in the United States, if they were handicapped at the time of the offense. Mentally handicapped my definition includes an element of diminished reponsibility.

 Rented Tritium wrote:

And if they are coerced or threatened? It's like you have no historical understanding of show trials in the south.

Its still an ongoing problem, ethnicity affects sentencing still and more worryingly a alarmingly large number of executions are botched or drawn out. Frankly any 'civilised' country that wishes to continue to conduct capital punishment should move over to hypoxia as means of carrying out an execution, the fact that the US states with death penalties refuse to do so is highly indicative of the thinking behind capital punishment.

I don't think ethnicity is an issue in this case though.

 Frazzled wrote:
I don't think ethnicity is an issue in this case though.

Yeah, besides his hair at the beginning of the trial, he's as white as a fething sheet...

 Frazzled wrote:
I don't think ethnicity is an issue in this case though.

But it is part of why we have the system set up this way. We can't say "automatic appeals if you're not white."

 Orlanth wrote:
Frankly any 'civilised' country that wishes to continue to conduct capital punishment should move over to hypoxia as means of carrying out an execution, the fact that the US states with death penalties refuse to do so is highly indicative of the thinking behind capital punishment.

What makes hypoxia any better than lethal injection?

 Hordini wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
Frankly any 'civilised' country that wishes to continue to conduct capital punishment should move over to hypoxia as means of carrying out an execution, the fact that the US states with death penalties refuse to do so is highly indicative of the thinking behind capital punishment.

What makes hypoxia any better than lethal injection?

Lethal injection has some risks that the person is paralyzed and cannot move, but is in immense pain because the numbing agent didn't take. Hypoxia makes the person tired and pass out, then die.

 azazel the cat wrote:

efarrer wrote:
THe saddest thing about this was that he had been seeking help, but getting crazier as the event came closer. The fact that the police had been notified in advance that he was a threat is one of the sadder points and an indictment not of the madman but of the mental health (and justice) systems/.

While I understand the sentiment you are trying to make, I must disagree with what I consider to be a very poor choice of words, considering the incident involved the mass murder of people who just wanted to go see a Batman movie.

.

How is if someone had intervened earlier (either from an enforcement staqndpoint or mental health stand point) no one have died a bad point. There were points intervention could have (and should have) occurred but didn't in the month or months leading up to the attack. It was preventable had someone intervened. That is a complete pity. No one, victims or possibly killer, had to die.

The question of his sanity should now be being settled in a court case regarding uttering threats, not multiple homicides.

It's sad that he didn't get involuntarily committed years ago and treated before this happened at all.

 Rented Tritium wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
I don't think ethnicity is an issue in this case though.

But it is part of why we have the system set up this way. We can't say "automatic appeals if you're not white."

True. I'm just denoting irregularities are not likely in this instance. Not based on the skin color but the fact he was caught dead to rights after a mass killing.

kronk wrote:It's probably his only way for it, as I doubt the DA would take a plea to avoid the death penalty.

No chance the DA would take a non-DP plea. While the absolute certainty that stems from allocution is wonderful, particularly for conscience and closure, in such a high-profile case like this it would be considered political suicide for the elected DA, as (s)he must placate the mob's desire for vengeance.

efarrer wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:

efarrer wrote:
THe saddest thing about this was that he had been seeking help, but getting crazier as the event came closer. The fact that the police had been notified in advance that he was a threat is one of the sadder points and an indictment not of the madman but of the mental health (and justice) systems/.

While I understand the sentiment you are trying to make, I must disagree with what I consider to be a very poor choice of words, considering the incident involved the mass murder of people who just wanted to go see a Batman movie.

.

How is if someone had intervened earlier (either from an enforcement staqndpoint or mental health stand point) no one have died a bad point. There were points intervention could have (and should have) occurred but didn't in the month or months leading up to the attack. It was preventable had someone intervened. That is a complete pity. No one, victims or possibly killer, had to die.

The question of his sanity should now be being settled in a court case regarding uttering threats, not multiple homicides.

I agree, that is by far the most tragic element; but the saddest is that many innocent people were gunned down. Semantics.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear he gets insanity-after all, wasn't the whole attack an homage to The Joker? I mean, I love comic books, but this guy...wow. He wasn't a terrorist, he wasn't working behind the scenes, he was dedicating his work to a fictional character. The guy is quite obviously nuts, and should be in the looney bin. I've seen the insides of minimum security psych wards, and he's likely to be in a maximum security one-it won't be a picnic, and he'll never have average human contact. It'll be a gakky life, and he deserves to live it, but I don't see the death penalty happening here, at least at the moment. If he goes lucid again...they can deal with it at that time.

 Rented Tritium wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
Frankly any 'civilised' country that wishes to continue to conduct capital punishment should move over to hypoxia as means of carrying out an execution, the fact that the US states with death penalties refuse to do so is highly indicative of the thinking behind capital punishment.

What makes hypoxia any better than lethal injection?

Lethal injection has some risks that the person is paralyzed and cannot move, but is in immense pain because the numbing agent didn't take. Hypoxia makes the person tired and pass out, then die.

Thanks, I figured it was something like that.

 Frazzled wrote:
I don't think ethnicity is an issue in this case though.

No it isnt, but ethnicity may factor into choices used in the sentencing mechanic, and other forms of human bigotry may get in the way of cleanly executing prisoners.
So for example if racism might affect executions, might there be room in the system for someone who has a hatred for the sentenced person to draw out the execution into a torture. It is fair to consider if this happens.

 Hordini wrote:

 Rented Tritium wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
Frankly any 'civilised' country that wishes to continue to conduct capital punishment should move over to hypoxia as means of carrying out an execution, the fact that the US states with death penalties refuse to do so is highly indicative of the thinking behind capital punishment.

What makes hypoxia any better than lethal injection?

Lethal injection has some risks that the person is paralyzed and cannot move, but is in immense pain because the numbing agent didn't take. Hypoxia makes the person tired and pass out, then die.

Thanks, I figured it was something like that.

Actually hypoxia can offer a very cheap, easy to apply and painless method of execution that doesn't require prisoner cooperation or trained expertise.
If you force the condemned person to breath in pure nitrogen through a gas mask they are unconscious in fifteen second and dead in one minute. There is no smell, taste, burning or irritation of any kind and the deprivation of oxygen process is euphoric. It's foolproof, safe to test, and dirt cheap.

The US system knows of this method and had rejected it in favour of less humane methods, most likely out of ideology; nitrogen hypoxia removes the opportunity to make the condemned suffer and that leads me back to the mentality behind the execution system and its uneven application.